NSW missed Linux opportunity

By Renai LeMay, ZDNet.com.au

01 April 2009 04:40 PM

Tags: adobe, education, lenovo, linux, nathan rees, nsw, stephen wilson, open source

commentary Once again, the New South Wales State Government has left Linux out in the cold after being knee-deep in speculation the open source platform would make in-roads into its desktop environment.

(Credit: Microsoft)

Flanked by heavyweights from Microsoft and Chinese PC manufacturer Lenovo, this morning the state's Premier Nathan Rees announced the Department of Education and Training would roll out some 200,000 laptops to students and teachers using Windows XP and Office.

I'm sure you can imagine the lack of shock in the ZDNet.com.au's bunker when this news came to light. The phrase "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" danced through this writer's mind.

Champagne celebrations will also be being held in Adobe's headquarters tonight, due to the software vendor's coup of inking a secondary deal with NSW which will see the laptops ship with the latest Photoshop Elements and bits and pieces of Creative Suite 4. Pays to get 'em young, obviously; they won't leave the fold later on.

The only problem with these cosy arrangements is that they represent a lack of gumption on the part of the NSW Government to at last capitalise on the open source opportunity it has been making eyes at for years.

In December 2006, DET information services director Tim Anderson claimed the department was taking Linux seriously. "The possibility of running Linux-based desktop platforms is real for us," he says in this video. "We have to consider [open source] very seriously," he continued, "because it is clearly an industry trend. We need to have genuine competition in the marketplace for desktops ... a lot of innovative educational solutions are coming out of the open source area."

That hasn't been the only example of the state considering the Linux option. Also in 2006, NSW issued a massive request for tender for desktops, laptops and small servers, noting in the desktop section that the ability to supply Linux-based systems was a highly desirable characteristic. That move had followed the appointment of a panel of open-source software suppliers back in 2005.

Fast forward to 2009.

After two years of frantic development, Linux (particularly Ubuntu) has achieved a strong presence in the now-mainstream netbook market courtesy of Asus' courageous early decision to focus on the open source platform, education-friendly derivatives like Edubuntu are well-developed, and few cross-platform or driver issues still dog Linus Torvalds' baby on standard hardware.

When your wife's friend's 60-year-old mother tells you at a Christmas party at a lovely Indian diner in Newtown that she loves her Xandros-based Linux PC and wants to buy more for her children, you know Linux has arrived.

With this in mind, and the cost consideration that clearly played a big part in DET's negotiations with vendors (DET CIO Stephen Wilson this morning said he was pleased with Microsoft's "innovative and flexible approach to software licensing and support"), it's hard to see why Linux wasn't given more serious consideration in the department's plans.

Then too, the department has not outlined how the laptops will be secured. I can't imagine the Atom-based Lenovo machines will have many spare CPU cycles or much spare RAM after loading up a security suite like Norton Antivirus in combination with Windows XP and chunks of Adobe CS4. You simply wouldn't face the same problem under Linux.

But my biggest beef with the state for choosing Windows XP actually doesn't relate to any of these issues.

Instead, I wonder how, given a plausible reason to, NSW could possibly refuse the chance to turn hundreds of thousands of students into armchair software developers by giving them Linux laptops armed with software development tools and all the room and encouragement to tinker and build great things that open source software offers.

NSW could have been the next Silicon Valley. Instead, the biggest legacy DET has landed itself is the task of sitting back down with Microsoft in several years to negotiate the upgrade to Windows 7.

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Talkback 94 comments

Add your opinion

? Anonymous -- 01/04/09

Ahh - the machines are coming with Visual Studio and Expression web. What's your problem?

Netbeans & Eclipse Rex Alfie Lee -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127494)

I have both Netbeans & Eclipse running on mine. What's your problem?

The fact is that M$'s idea of software development hardly allows any real innovation or true freedom to create. It is stifled within Windows environment which has to take care because of so many problems most of which you would be aware of. The fact is that this company is scum. They are the epitome of the mafia in the IT world. The best thing we can do is to ignore them & make them go away.

What the NSW decision-making process has failed to include is how much these Government degenerates were paid to choose M$ over Linux.

Windows vs Linux Anonymous -- 15/05/09 (in reply to #320127848)

Politics is about money and there is no money in open source.

Try grasping reality for a minute!! Mudotter -- 01/04/09

95% of the worlds computers run Microsoft software with the other 5% split between the many different flavours of Linux and of course Apple.

Going any other way would massively limit the students employability in the REAL world.

Who is going to teach the Teachers how to teach/administer Linux?? It would require years of training to teach them a system that is used by less than 3% of the worlds computers.

Maybe they could offer it as an elective course, but it is certainly not main stream.

Most of the world's computers Anonymous -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127500)

Most of the world's computers are in Asia - and they are running Linux. Even here in Australia the only organizations I know running Microsoft are the government and their contractors. Most private industry development is done on Linux, BSD, Solaris, ... and other 'Unix like' platforms - not a video game platform like XP.

Asia = irrelevant re Australian computer use Patanjali -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127692)

And having been a Tech Writer for well over a decade, writing user, operator and admin manuals, Windows is still a major OS in larger businesses and enterprises. Linux per se is not a large contender as an application development platform.

That is not to say that it should not offered a space in schools, BUT to make it the mandatory platform in a largely Windows usage country is asking for huge support problems. DET has many desktop support level, most staffed by teachers who have a computer (but not programmer) leaning. Asking them to learn a whole new environment is asking for a huge training bill and a lot of headaches for several years. It already has enough problems because of its largely unmanaged network.

I think the decision is largely a pragmatic one.

Mudotter --> Rubbish! Rex Alfie Lee -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127739)

When one is talking about using a computer user Mudotter, you aren't really trying to suggest that someone who is Linux capable is going to be frowned upon by anyone other than Microsoft themselves, are you? Most believe Linux to be harder to use than Windoze & whilst their may be some truth in some areas of this the Linux user is more than capable of working their way around an M$ OS.

Ridiculous argument, a non-pointer.

Selling Out the Next Generation Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 06/04/09 (in reply to #320127739)

I understand the arguments that, most teachers and most in the current workforce know M$, but the mere fact that M$ were prepared to discount as heavily as they clearly did is PROOF that M$ knows that if kids are taught on Open Source, they will forever be free of the shackles. In an open environment, you simply don't need windows or gates.
There is nothing the school kids needed that could not be met with Ubuntu at present. And there is no price at which M$ can supply its OS and Office suite which could reimburse the support staff for the difference between typical M$ rebuilds and an auto-boot-restore of Linux off a USB stick. Mucking around with all those licence numbers for one chews up hundreds of hours per year... compared to identical configs on Linux, due to lack of licensing.
But overall, locking these kids into a life of MS-limited software with its associated software royalty stream which works against our balance of payments was simply stupid short-term thinking so typical of state governments - looking purely at their own budgets and having nil consideration of longer-term societal issues or the effect on the national economy. I still can't think of a single good decision by this stale NSW government over the past decade.

Emotional Much Anonymous -- 12/04/09 (in reply to #320128430)

It's OK mate - just light another joss-stick ... Ommmmmm - what a pile of emotional claptrap.

Used to be 95% shrunk to under 80% Tom Russell -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127500)

According to Balmer the less than 80% run Windows, at least 30% of which are unlicensed (pirated). 10% and growing are Linux and 10% MAC.

Balmer knows the Windows desktop market is shrinking, and is hoping the cloud will save Microsoft.
Your figures are at least 5 years out of date.

Wrong Tom Anonymous -- 09/04/09 (in reply to #320128035)

Ballmer is talking about NORTH AMERICA only. Apple has yet to even breach the 5% mark internationally and linux WELL WELL under that.

Sorry but you're completely wrong. Anonymous -- 12/09/09 (in reply to #320129081)

As far as Microsoft is concerned, the figures for Europe and South America are worse than North America. And you only wish Linux market share was "WELL WELL under that".

On Linux in particular: It remains the fastest growing platform today, running on everything from smartphones, to games consoles, to routers and NAS devices, televisions, TiVo, renderfarms, and supercomputers.

It is fast becoming the dominant platform of choice for mobile device manufacturers, it dominates web services, high performance computing and supercomputing, and it dominates the film industry as well.

No operating system is more ideally positioned today to become the most dominant platform of tomorrow.

And what are the kids being taught in school ?

Linux is simple enough Anonymous -- 16/04/09 (in reply to #320127500)

...simple enough for this 15 year old to upgrade the kernel by the command line.

And get your numbers right, please - M$ is only at 92% or so market share since everyone realised Vista was a junkbucket. 3% makes a lot of difference when it's several million PC's.

Employability in the future. Anonymous -- 12/09/09 (in reply to #320127500)

"95% of the worlds computers run Microsoft software"

False.

"with the other 5% split between the many different flavours of Linux and of course Apple."

False.

Microsoft's own internal numbers reveal that Microsoft knows Linux and Apple combined are now approaching 20% market share. These numbers are serious enough to tip the market much more quickly than you anticipate. Watch what happens over the next two years.

"Going any other way would massively limit the students employability in the REAL world."

Where I work, If you're fresh out of an education system that was of such poor quality and so shortsighted as to offer you little more than Windows 7 and Microsoft Office and you have zero experience using the kind of software that we rely upon on a daily basis (ie. We say "Linux" and you say, "what's that ?"), YOU WILL NOT GET A JOB HERE !

"Who is going to teach the Teachers how to teach/administer Linux??"

They don't "teach/administer" Windows, they assume familiarity ! They don't even teach students how to "save as" (for example, if they want to save as .doc instead of .docx) ! Last time I told students to simply "save as" to another format THEY HAD NO IDEA WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. With computers, we were better educated than this 20 years ago !!

"It would require years of training"

Absolute rubbish.

"a system that is used by less than 3% of the worlds computers."

False. Again, your poorly educated students will never get a job in today or tommorows IT industry. They'll have to recognize their lack of education and teach themselves while still in school or pursue further education later where they will learn that they learned absolutely nothing in school.

Where will your students, who are just starting High School, be in four or five years ? In a world of mobile devices (that they are more aware of than you are), increasingly reliant upon web services and new technologies that are heavily based upon free software, a world where Microsoft and its business model have lost its relevance.

Its happening now and fast. If you're still not getting it then lets put it this way: I wouldn't waste money buying Microsoft shares ! And yet you would happily sell out the futures of our students to a corporation that is not changing with the times.

Linux is free if your time is free Anonymous -- 01/04/09

Have you ever tried to support even one unskilled user with a Linux desktop?

No, don't bother answering that.

Do you know what a netbook is? Myke -- 01/04/09 (in reply to #320127501)

Would you like a lesson?

I have helped many unskilled users, have you?

Do you know what a netbook is? Mel Sommersberg -- 01/04/09 (in reply to #320127512)

A grossly underpowered laptop? Thankyou, please hold the applause and just wake up to yourself.

Why? Anonymous -- 01/04/09 (in reply to #320127517)

Why play the man and not the ball, because you don't agree with Myke?

Obviously you have never helped anybody and because you haven't, maybe it is you who needs to wake up to himself?

Oh Mel, have you ever used one? Rex Alfie Lee -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127517)

Mel Sommersberg's comment shows a lack of insight into his argument. Normally I would look for knowledge & straight info from you but obviously Mel you've never used a netbook. Compared to the current $1000-plus machines out there you're probably right but for the vast community who don't have a brand-spanking new notebook, their older machines do not carry the same power. Ok, the CPU is lower in some but the way these machines have been set up, they run far better than the notebooks of past. As I've said earlier, I have both Netbeans & Eclipse running on my Atom-based machine & they're not fast but it's a lot better than most older machines.

It is a lot easier Anonymous -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127501)

Moved my mom to Linux about 1 1/2 years ago.

She learned XP about 6 or 7 yrs ago.

Her calls for help dropped from 2 X a week to 1 every 2 months. Usually installing new HW on her home network.

Only thing I do is log in remotely to update her laptop and desktop (she got a virus on the desktop and asked me to migrate to Linux because it is far superior - her words).

Totaly agree with Myke/ above person :P Anonymous -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127636)

I moved my mother from Xp to ubuntu as well as my girlfriends entire family (6 computers in all) all of which have varying levels of computing skills.

iv also moved my dad to linux (which has been a windows power user for years).

and the hardest part of moving them was removing the windows XP sticker off the laptops.

My girlfriend has the choice of using windows or linux (dualboot) and her xp has lied idle for months upon months now.

also, sure you are training people to use a tiny market share.. but if they are using ubuntu on there laptops and love it chances are they will install it on there desktop, and then your maket share grows...

becides its an easy transition to a mac if you know linux.

No worries mate Tom Russell -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127501)

I install over 400 Ubuntu desktops a year for the digital divide, most of who are unskilled in computing and the vast majority of whom get by on their own.

It's only the one who have been indoctrinated by Windows that have trouble driving an alternate system. A quick 10 minute talk about driving different cars usually allows their cognition to accept the differences.

Give students a choice. Anonymous -- 01/04/09

I think the problem here is that students have no choice. Students should have the choice to put Linux (or both) on it if they want. Students are being forced to use Window's, this is what I think makes this bad.

Learn to spell then learn to debate. Mel Sommersberg -- 01/04/09 (in reply to #320127507)

What is "Window's"?

I think you will find that it is the syllabus that dictates what the OS of choice will be. Try running an education department and I think you will see why. Students are no more forced to use Windows than they are forced to wear a tie and fasten their top button.

Again? Simon -- 01/04/09 (in reply to #320127516)

Again playing the man. Learn to spell and then learn to debate?

Who made you the Caesar of what is acceptable?

Why don't you just accept people's thought's, warts and all, instead of having a hissy fit over ettiquette?

Some people shamefully, have no decency to their fellow man's thoughts and reasoning.

Blah Mel Sommersberg -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127611)

Simon, just because I disagree with someone's opinion doesn't mean I don't respect or accept it. Kindly don't put words into my mouth and don't mask your rank hypocrisy by answering questions with questions. By questioning my questions you are playing the man and not the ball yourself.

No intention to offend you. Simon -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127751)

Its easy to say I respect others, but you need to mean it, which you clearly do not Mr Sommersberg. In only 5 lines you have accused me of putting words in your mouth, hypocrisy and playing the man.

Let me begin then by proving that I am not a hypocrite as you so kindly indicated and to prove my point,

*I apologise to you, if I have offended you*.

This is what decent people do. Offending you was and is not my intention. My intent was to bring to your attention your disrespectful demeanour which you may not even realise, you portray.

Why the confrontationist attitude with every word? What do you get from vilifying people who differ in opinion? How does your abrasive demeanour benefit the discussion or benefit you?

Then instead of respecting my views, you turn the tables and accuse me of playing the man not the ball, because I confront your disrespectfulness?

A lot of the time it isn't even your content matter, it's the disrespectful subject heading, like, learn to spell or blah. I believe we are at a blog, where people submit *opinions*? Most come for stress free, friendly chatting, or to compare thoughts with other like minded people. They not only come to convey their *views to others*, but also *learn*, from those who have a different take on the same theme. There must be a degree of give and take.

But some like you don't come here for a friendly chat, you even say so. You come to *debate*. No disrespect intended, but *in my opinion* the term debate is a very loose interpretation for the methods you deploy. I believe you do not come to debate; you come to force your views upon others, with no willingness at all to listen or learn. You come to argue, and argue over trivialities, such as spelling errors.

Please learn to accept that others have views which *are* contrary to your own and also, that not everyone is a linguist and that these aren't valid reasons for being targeted for vilification. Also please learn that by nature, *opinions*, even yours, won't always be factual, no matter how factual you may believe them to be.

Surely in a civilised society it is basic decency to listen and consider others views? But decent or not, by applying the blinkers and overlooking counter views, you are perhaps missing out on an array of useful information. Information, which could be educational and lead to broadening of horizons?

Cheers Mr Sommersberg, I wish you well.

Here's a hanky for all those tears... Mel Sommersberg -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127901)

Simon, I am not going to waste time arguing over semantics with you. Stop being such a pedantic crybaby and realise that what you said was no better than what you accuse me of and wanting me to stop.

I'm a big believer in mutual respect but it has to go both ways. You are yet to earn any.

Mel/ Brad the imperforate anus Jason -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320128012)

I've been watching this with interest to see if Braaadleeey would be man enough to fess up and be civil towards you Simon, or whether he'd attack you? And guess what? So please now let me cut in.

Brad/Mel you just showed beyond doubt what a completely thoughtless, selfish, moronic, piece of ***t you are. Someone was trying to correspond with you rationally, you moron.

Simon even apologised and wished you well and you refer to him as a pedantic crybaby?

Obviously Brad it is your ridiculous dreamt up egotistical attitude which will NEVER earn you others repect, as you'll NEVER be man enough to apologise.

So every comment and everything you have ever said in relation to personal attacks has just been proven lies, lies, lies, after that disgraceful performance and once again shows you really do believe you are the Lord, who can say what he wants and no ones else can say boo to you.

This is about the 10th person I have seen who has said the same about you and they (including me) can't all be wrong. You aren't special, you aren't intelligent and you aren't the Lord, fool. In fact you aren't anything you think you are.

Brad, you are exactly as I said last night, which was -

"I can see that you are simply an insecure little boy, one who was bullied at school, has few friends, and clings to muuuuumy's every word. Because of this, you base your life on a complete fantasy, by naively believing a ridiculous notion from muuuuumy that John Howard wasn't a complete knob. Plus getting sacked from Telstra's IRC, has left an indelible scar on your psyche and a lifelong need for retribution.

This all being so, the only way for you to display courage, is when hiding behind a monitor, mouthing off, under the self inflated alias of Lord (Watchdog).

This is something you could never do in real life. In fact, you got so much enjoyment from being an online hero (in your feeble mind) that you even started your own website/IRC to have an endless avenue for "bravado", all from the safety of a pc at muuuuumy's".

So maybe you'd better keep that hanky you offered to Simon, because undoubtedly, you'll have a cry now, because the truth hurts...

"you imperforate anus".

! Simon -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320128019)

Bit austere? But cheers Jason.

lol @ pedantic crybaby... Anonymous -- 12/10/09 (in reply to #320128012)

Weren't you being a pedantic crybaby when you pulled up the guy who wrote "window's"? I guess you forget your own posts rather quickly... BTW, I don't believe anybody could put words in your mouth, no one would have a chance, given the rate they seem to come out of it.

Have you ever actually touched Linux Mel? Rex Alfie Lee -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127516)

I'm not sure I understand your point here Mel. If you're trying to say that there isn't the software available to use on Linux to run what students require, you aren't serious or are you? If you are then you're on the wrong argument & know nothing of what you are talking about. Get back to the Telstra argument bcoz right now you sound like Sydney, "Lots of anecdotal presence without any real points".
As far as Office products are concerned, everything M$ has to offer is available for nix, except the database. What do you want to learn though, how to use a database or how to use M$'s database because that is all you will learn. BTW, there are so many free DBMSs available, you needn't go down the line of querying this one. What's more the fastest DB on a massive scaled project is MySQL (open source, of course) in the world, but of course they don't offer foreign keys & that would be why.

Still wondering what your point is Mel?

Yes but it doesn't suit my needs. Mel Sommersberg -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127853)

Rex, I didn't say, assume or imply what you quoted. Like Simon, you seem to be putting words in people's mouths just for the sake of winning an argument. You two should get together for tea and scones and discuss where the hell God went wrong with your ante-natal development.

Yes, I've used Linux, though for my non-Windows environments I prefer and use FreeBSD and only with the command line and not a desktop.

By the way, addressing Telstra in a thread relevant only to operating systems is not only poor form but proves that your arugments are as hollow as your cranium.

The issue over the choice of operating systems here comes down to the fact that the computers that will be handed to students will not be primarily used for development purposes but for completing homework and daytime studies in the subjects that they already study, such as English, History and Science.

RE: ? Anonymous -- 01/04/09

Have you ever tried getting debugging symbols for the windows DLLs? What about the source code so that you can actually do something when there is a problem?

_THAT_ is the point. And _THAT_ _IS_ software development. Development is more than the ability to run a compiler.

The future is looking up for my kids. Myke -- 01/04/09

Looks like my "secret" linux knowledge will be valuable for years yet. I love charging all you "linux is difficult, geniuses" uber dollars for SFA. Looks like my kids can too...

Not all MS software is expensive Mel Sommersberg -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127511)

If most people bought the correct version of Windows and Office for their needs instead of trying to keep up with the Joneses by purchasing the ultimate versions for the hell of it they'd find Windows and Office perfect value for money. I'm old hat with Windows, Linux and FreeBSD and my unbiased view is that Windows is the easiest to install out of the lot of them and in saying that I will also say that not one of those operating systems is the be all and end all.

You, however, seem to think that anything non-Linux is bad news but in reality it is just petty anti-MS rhetoric. I'll agree that Linux is easy to install - but it is only easy for those that have prior experience.

Windows is installed on 95% of the world's desktop computers and about 60% of servers. That dominance hasn't come about by accident.

True! Rex Alfie Lee -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127753)

Windows is easier to install than Linux but there in lies the problem. Because the swap is within the same partition problems can occur that won''t on Linux. Admittedly with the larger drives this is less likely it is still a possible problem.

BTW Mel, your 60% of servers obviously isn't including ISPs where dominance is not Windows at all but Linux.

It would also be interesting to see how things have changed now that Asean countries have forged ahead. I doubt their data is taken into account here & I would bet the numbers would not support your numbers.

95% of all statistics are made up on the spot. I did.

Oh Nooo!!! G -- 05/04/09 (in reply to #320127854)

The swap is in the same partition!! Run for the hills!!!

@ Not all MS software is expensive Simon -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127753)

I think Mr Lee is right Mr Sommersberg, you are sounding like a Sydney clone. This is the argument Sydney uses.

Telstra is used by the majority, so they must be the best. Telstra's dominance hasn't come about by accident. Telstra are more expensive but you only get what you pay for as Telstra's products are premium.

You argue the validity of every point in Sydney's argument when it comes to Telstra, but use the *exact same argument, yourself, almost word for word* when it comes to MS.

Looking at the two, you will have to admit that one of your arguments must be totally flawed. Which is it?

How about a reply to this too? Simon -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127894)

Mr Sommersberg, I see you took the easy way instead of the respectable way towards me, by going on the attack at my other post, but you refuse to reply to this? Now I can see why you have no friends here.

It is patently obvious that it easier for you to call me names at the other post, than it is to actually explain this very antonymous and maniacal thought pattern.

Here is your reply Simon Mel sommersberg -- 04/04/09 (in reply to #320128031)

Simon, when someone gives me respect I will reply in kind. When someone takes the mickey I will also reply in kind. That is why you aren't making any headway because you have about as much intellgence as the arse-end of a dead flea.

And what's all this childish crap about friends? Do you come here to make friends Simon? I noticed you didn't do too badly - Jason has crawled under your wing and you two will be engaing in secret handshakes and exchanging old Ribald magazines soon enough. With a friend like Jason you won't need any enemies. He's about as loyal as a bank and your (and his) continual efforts to upset me continue to make me laugh so hard my stomach hurts.

Again to Brad/Mel the imperforate anus. Jason -- 04/04/09 (in reply to #320128123)

I feel pity for you Brad (Mel Sommersberg, Lord Watchdog, Steve, anonymous) hiding behind all those names because you don't have the balls to post under your real name as I do.

Your stomach hurts. Perhaps congratulations are in order. The JH love doll and Brad spineless, racist are having a liittle Adolf.

..."you imperforate anus".

Now answer Simon's question. Jason -- 04/04/09 (in reply to #320128130)

BTW you still avoided Simon's question about Telstra and MS. Just keep worming, worm.

You don't know whether you are Arthur or Martha do you moron.

@Here is your reply Simon -- 05/04/09 (in reply to #320128123)

Mr Sommersberg, or whatever your real name is, you are quite the *spokesman and a true humanitarian* (sic).

With all due respect, as I refuse to lower myself to your rather pointless level, the nature of your replies shows you to be one who is unable to accept basic, constructicve criticism and unable to see yourself through the eyes of others. I note you are currently debating (pointlessly arguing) with Rex, Jason, Sydney and myself.

Being unable to see yourself as others do, shows you to be *exactly as my new chum said*. An insecure child, sitting safely behind your pc, toughly throwing insults, wrongly thinking that you are both important and knowledgable.

Goodbye Mr Sommersberg people like you aren't worth it. Strike this down as a win for you if that will make you feel like the man you obviously will never be.

*Jason, I often wondered why you did what you do, but it is now most clear*.

a little more Simon -- 05/04/09 (in reply to #320128249)

Sorry, I know I said goodbye, so I am now in your eyes, a deceitful liar, but just to be clear Mr. Sommersberg.

Again I wasn't trying to upset you, as you put it. Please understand the difference between genuine constructive criticism and out and out meanness. Mine was constructive your was mean.

The constructive criticism I sent, any normal person would at least consider. Criticism that if taken seriously, may help you to be less disliked.

If you can't see your abrasiveness is subtracting from your input, with people not taking your sometimes interesting angle on issues seriously, then so be it. Be more respectful and others will listen to you and you may win them over. It may even help you to no longer be a target for ridicule.

As for my chum, I don't think he is trying to upset you, he *definitely has upset you and then some*. Whoa baby.

Cheerio this time, Mr. Sommersberg.

Simon, a Jason clone Mel Sommersberg -- 05/04/09 (in reply to #320128249)

"With all due respect, as I refuse to lower myself to your rather pointless level, the nature of your replies shows you to be one who is unable to accept basic, constructicve criticism and unable to see yourself through the eyes of others."

haha, Again a laugh-a-minute Simon. Your rank hypocrisy knows no bounds. You are the one that started with the claim that I am a "Sydney Clone", no doubt referring to Sydney Lawrence.

You call that constructive criticism? I call it a load of BS and something I would have expected from your new ally, Jason. Since I feel like I am arguing with two five year olds, please claim the win for yourselves - you have more to gain from it than I would. Your computer is smarter than you are.

Brad, a Mel, Lord Watchdog, Steve, anonymous clone, strangely enough, rofl Jason -- 06/04/09 (in reply to #320128333)

Braaadleeey (Mel, Lord Watchdog, Steve, anonymous) "the imperforate anus"!

You were arguing with two five year olds? But yet, "you have again, lost the argument", rofl. So another huge dent in your self inflated (hey like your partner, little Johnny love doll) ape like, chest beating, ego?

You have been made look quite childish and foolish and apparently by two mere five olds, lmfao. But what's more, you have "once again made yourself", look even more childish and foolish, with your "uncontrollable and revenge filled replies". One might even say that you have simply reaffirmed that you are indeed "the imperforate anus, imperforate anus".

Will you ever get even one thing right stupid? Rex started the comparison between you and Sydney.

Now to the point, and it's actually quite straightforward. IF YOU AREN'T FOS (which due to your lack of conviction and non replies so far, proves you obviously are) THEN SIMPLY ANSWER SIMON'S QUESTION (now asked and avoided, 4 times) ABOUT YOUR COMPLETELY OPPOSITE TAKES ON MS AND TELSTRA?

If you can't then STFU! Because you again prove beyond doubt that your are; an absolute liar, whose only aim in life is retribution against Telstra for being fired as an Op from their IRC.

You weren't even a paid Op, you were an unpaid, volunteer (so "you" said) but even then, you still got the flick, hahahaha. You and your professional services (lmao), "even when totally free of charge", were still too lame for you to keep the job, hahahaha?

No wonder you hate them so and spent from that time on starting your own IRC, just to seek revenge. We can all see why you also attack Telstra 24/7, to make up for your "most obvious" embarrassment of being a sacked Telstra volunteer (hahaha) insecure little boy.

What did that nasty Telstra do to the "Lord's ego", diddums?

Laughterbating furiously at you, "you imperforate anus"!

lol, rofl, hahaha Mel Sommersberg -- 12/04/09 (in reply to #320128444)

Jason, regarding Bigpond IRC, it is a matter of 'when you find a better thing - switch to it'.

Enjoy tonight's daisychain session with your mate Simon. :-p

That was an off topic rant, SACKED VOLUNTEER, speaking of ROFL Jason -- 12/04/09 (in reply to #320129422)

Rofl.

Gee thanks for that off topic rant, Brad (Mel, Lord Watchdog, Steve, Anonymous, Idiot Heckler, Imperforate anus, SACKED VOLUNTEER) haha.

You still have 3 unanswered questions! Can't back your lies?

Never mind, muuuumy's there to comfort you SACKED VOLUNTEER , I mean precious.

Wow, this goes to show how stupidly bias ZDNet is Martin -- 01/04/09

This has to be in the top ten all time illogical and stupidly bias whines I have seen on ZDNet.

94% of the worlds desktop computers run Windows, 5% Mac and 1% run Linux.

"NSW could have been the next Silicon Valley" ROFL...ha ha ha ha..this made my day!

It's more than that... Anonymous -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127570)

actually it's 9.63 for Mac's since December 2008.

Rubbish Martin Rex Alfie Lee -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127570)

None of your numbers have any meaning at all when you consider the versions of Linux loaded onto older-model computers. Russia's Gov't & schools, China (their own version of Linux) & huge tracts of Asia, South America & Africa use Linux because the older boxes work better with Linux on them & because the licensing fees for XP were too high for these countries to afford. Where's the purchase to support this information? Unless you check all the magazine purchases you'll never know, not to mention the downloads of Linux.

Your numbers represent what M$ want you to think. They don't equate with the real world.

Playing the Game Capt Hooks first mate -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127855)

OK, I'll play your game, where are your facts and figures coming from then "all of china and the rest of the third world" please.

Cool Anonymous -- 01/04/09

I get to watch the linux bigots work themselves into a silly soapy lather! This will be so much fun. Meanwhile - the rest of us move on

BWOAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!

Cool -> **** Rex Alfie Lee -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127584)

You have nothing to offer so why add nothing to the mix other than you're a ****.

Soapy Anonymous -- 05/04/09 (in reply to #320127856)

How's that lather coming on Rex?

NSW missed Linux opportunity Anonymous -- 01/04/09

Most of the 95% users does not know what a Operating System is or for what it is for. (not joking).

So, for most of them it could be MS-DOS in the laptops..

And the day will come that the brave admins,who are more occupied in defending the IT-departments from the encroaching penguin than anything else, are going to accept the following facts.

MS-skill = outsourced to Hungary/India/China
Non-MS skill = more job security and growing demand.

Really sad, BECAUSE Linux is getting huge.

But in the other hand, is our duty to keep Mr.Gates money-fat and make sure that NSW does not compete with Silicon Valley.

AMEN.

Uh-huh Anonymous -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127608)

Getting huge huh? Have you looked at what PC's are shipping with? Even the much touted netbook world (supposedly perfect for linux) is Windows all over. Face it. It ain't ready. And may never be

Oh dear Anonymous -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127619)

To think that the reason Microsoft's operating system is on all netbooks is because that's what the customer chose is just plain wrong.

Microsoft bought the market.

huge aye? Anonymous -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127688)

No company can sustain buying business forever, sure linux is tiny currently, but eventually no business can compete with a $0 price tag, it just doesn't make business sense now does it?

Linux is defiantly ready. It is YOUR stupid narrow minded attitude toward linux that holds it back, nothing else.

thinks take time, no one doubts that, but look at the slow progress, dell now ship with ubuntu (sure its only a few, but it grows constantly) it started with one desktop, then a desktop and a laptop, now there a many computers available with ubuntu all around the world. dell have supported redhat for years, however this is the first time they have started to sell consumer computers with linux.

sure linux moved from 0.5 to 1% market but thats still a 100% growth, it starts small but its a snowball effect, and its only going to take a few hardware companies to push the world away from windows.

Ooooo Anonymous -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127712)

I've been hearing about this snowball effect since around 1998... one bloody slow snowball. Or when the seasons change, the sun comes out & the snowball melts?

I have this image of a linux lover stroking his penguin .. "my precious....". Always makes me laugh!

Uh-huh Anonymous -- 08/04/09 (in reply to #320127688)

So how do you buy the market when a PC manufacturer supplies a linux distro for around $3, and pays $25 for XP.

And they choose XP? Why is that, I wonder?

Blah Mel Sommersberg -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127608)

"Most of the 95% users does not know what a Operating System is or for what it is for. (not joking)."

Changing their choice of OS would make things different I suppose?

"So, for most of them it could be MS-DOS in the laptops.."

It's a case of whatever works. Most ATMs run OS/2, the predecessor to Windows NT, but when you withdraw your money the machine doesn't short-change you.

"And the day will come that the brave admins,who are more occupied in defending the IT-departments from the encroaching penguin than anything else, are going to accept the following facts."

They are defending their ever-shrinking IT budgets. A change would place a heavier burden on the bottom line.

"MS-skill = outsourced to Hungary/India/China
Non-MS skill = more job security and growing demand."

Most development work in Indian sweatshops is for non-Windows platforms. That is fact. Live with it.

"But in the other hand, is our duty to keep Mr.Gates money-fat and make sure that NSW does not compete with Silicon Valley."

Microsoft is based in Redmond. Linus Torvalds is European.

Brilliant! Rex Alfie Lee -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127755)

If ever there was a non-pointer coming it has to be whatever you wrote then Mel. That is the biggest load of tripe. Sure M$ is in Redmond & Linus is Scandinavian, but what has that got to do with anything. We spend hundreds of millions per year that go directly to the USA. That is Windows & othe M$ software as well as Apple. Linux would at least stop the money-drain, the wasted money when it could all be achieved using Linux.

Sure his points weren't perfect but yours aren't exactly on the ball at the moment. Where was his mention of Linus Torvalds? We knew what he meant, including you but you take issue with that? Mel, that's as bad as pointing out he spelt something incorrectly & the only reason for doing that is if you have no real point. It's just a tantrum slap.

As for the other jerk who made comment about stroking his penguin, we all tend to point out our own follies when we see them in others.

A little emotional Anonymous -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127857)

Gee Rex, you are little emotional aren't you? Might want to calm down before you pop an artery!

..my precious!!!

Now now Rexie Alf... Mel Sommersberg -- 04/04/09 (in reply to #320127857)

"As for the other jerk... "

Talk about tantrums, tut tut!

Obviously when I cover all angles to prevent one-eyed people like you saying "but what about..." you get real shirty. It's not my problem if you can't exercise a greater level of self-control Rex.

As for your comments about the US money drain, what about commercial flavours of Linux? Does that money stay in Australia or go to capitalist Linux developers elsewhere around the world?

At least I can sit here and honestly say that I use both Windows and Unix platforms and acknowledge that they both have their ups and downs however every comment you make in relation to an OS is an anti-MS, anti-Bill Gates diatribe.

Who's the one with the balanced opinions now?

DET Laptop roll out. Anonymous -- 02/04/09

I don't seriousl know how anyone could expect anything different. Given Microsoft's juicing up XP's life-support it would have been a given that if the NSW governemtn went with Netbooks it would be machines that run Windows XP.

Sure Linux is far superior has better security inherently but XP is a solid platform that has stability Vista can only dream about. Linux never had a look in because when governments need to spend money they go for what costs the most as opposed to what is the most effective.

Its sad the Microoft has plugged a very real market hole that had given Linux and opportunity for even more mainstream recognition. But such is the nature of the industry at the moment.

Geez Editor Anonymous -- 02/04/09

So NSW DET does an evaluation and selects what they want.

And you have a hissy fit. Perhaps it was not up to the job?

I've gotta say, your Silicon Valley coment was laughable.

Oh dear Anonymous -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127686)

NSW DET did their evaluation and were going to go with Linux - Microsoft recognised this and bought out their decision - effectively making it for them.

Hire Chinese students Anonymous -- 02/04/09

This is why I have to hire Chinese students for software development instead of Australians. They are taught useful programming skills on (Red Flag) linux platforms. Australian students get to play video games on XP. Way to go DET!

Trends Anonymous -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127696)

You'll find it's more because enrolments in university computing courses have been plumeting since the tech wreck. We're starting to see the impact of this in industry.

i hope they are NOT learning programming! Rob Demon, Devils Advocate. -- 02/04/09

These laptops are not for learning programming, they are for LEARNING. Students aren't given pens to learn how to make pens, they are a tool to use in their learning about everything. The OS is essentially irrelevant. Penguin fans - get over it. Windows fan boys - get over it.

This aint about technology Anonymous -- 02/04/09

Remember:

OS2 Warp?
Betamax?
Lotus 1-2-3
Wordperfect

"Linux is getting huge", pleeeease!

Whinge Whinge Whinge Anonymous -- 02/04/09 (in reply to #320127742)

You have to love Linux users! "If you dont like our OS you have no idea....we are getting bigger...we really are, seriously, we just cant find any stats to back up our comments.....you better believe us or else"

What a bunch of morons. If your OS was better DET would be using it, end of point.

Maybe your just upset cause you cant find an organisation who uses your crappy OS, hence you are finding it a bit hard to find a job all the time.

There is a reason why Linux is free, cause nobody would be stupid enough to pay for it.

Seriously mate... Anonymous -- 12/09/09 (in reply to #320127793)

There's plenty of stats to back up Linux users comments. But you wont get them from Gartner or Net Applications. You see, their biggest client is Microsoft.

And actually, for those of us who work in IT, we know Linux is better. Politics is about money and who buys who, its dirty pool, and it has nothing to do with quality decisions for the education of our children.

Its pretty sad that you can't find an organization that uses Linux. I can find plenty. Perhaps you, like most who live in a Microsoft bubble, assume without doing any fact checking.

I have a job, and if you don't have Linux skills where I work, you won't get a job.

Linux is free because its original creator wanted it to be free software under the GPL. Its high quality software that you don't have to pay money for.

I'll forgive your mind numbing ignorance.

I guess you aren't paying attention. Anonymous -- 12/09/09 (in reply to #320127742)

""Linux is getting huge", pleeeease!"

It is actually. But obviously in ways that you are blind to. Not a worry, its your problem.

What are the computers really being purchased for? Alan -- 02/04/09

The computers are being purchased for education reasons - to improve educational outcomes in secondary schools. The basis for the discussion should be their suitability based on the total hardware and software package to be supplied to achieve that outcome, not whether NSW loses "the chance to turn hundreds of thousands of students into armchair software developers" by not choosing Linux as the operating system.

Educational Outcomes Rex Alfie Lee -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127814)

Not following the tried & true has always been a major influence in positive changes & using Linux would enhance that by teaching the children to understand what they are using rather than accepting the black box that is Windows.

There is no proof to show that Windows is a better system than Linux nor the other way round. Both have positives & negatives but at least with Linux you're not tied down to M$, the scum company.

Happy happy!! Anonymous -- 04/04/09 (in reply to #320127858)

How's that artery my precious?

Wow! Anonymous -- 04/04/09 (in reply to #320127858)

Rexie baby - you're very emotional about this aren't you? Perhaps you should book yourself to chat with a professional ... this can't be good for you....

not surprised Anonymous -- 03/04/09

I really can't imagine that convinced MS "tax contributors" actually believe that the future of humanity with billions of PCs around the world will be at the hand of a single company struggling pathetically to make every new update of their OS be less bad than the previous one. One major update in every five years. Pathetically, because maybe it only imitates the effort. After all, why would one struggle to make something better which anyway HAS TO be used by everybody. The "pragmatic" "MS taxpayers" would be happy in this world. I wouldn't be even if there was no choice. But there is!! Linux is thousand times better than it was a few years back. Vista is much worse than XP was. That says something about the trends. But never mind! At all ages progress was not easy. A small minority had to stand against an arrogant conservative majority staying put about their beliefs about the world being flat, that human body should not be cut for medical purposes, engines are the devil's etc. MS had its role in the history of IT. OpenSource is the new era. Those who criticise OpenSource and Linux for not being at the level of the MS package play the role of those who prefer the familiar old ways. Surely, the bow and the arrow seemed to be more "up to the job" than the very first guns.
The only acceptable argument for using MS can be: "I am running/working for a business dealing exclusively with MS dependent clients. Here and now I have to serve them to get my money." The rest of the conservatives would be more credible if they uninstalled everything that is FOSS. I wonder how many of them would still be able to do their job on their FOSS-free computer.

If Linux is better...than use it! Anonymous -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127875)

If you dont like Windows dont use it. Use Linux. Good luck to you. Who knows, by next year Linux might be on 6% of the worlds computers. I cant believe 94% of the worlds computer using population can be wrong.

I know Linux so I am smart. You know Windows so you know nothing. Sorry, i cant keep typing, mum has just called me for breakfast.

Amateur idiots Capt Hooks first mate -- 03/04/09 (in reply to #320127875)

DET once used Netware and Digital VMS
Both these companies practically gave them the software, but it didnt cut the mustard in this very large environment. And now we have the Linux "gurus" touting they toy OS as the next big thing, I have been hearing this crap for over ten years, funnily enough always from no hopper want to be, down with the establishment, long haired university types. Free, nothings free you idiots, in the end someone has to pay, itâ��s called TCO.
As far as missed the boat the only thing that has missed the boat is linux. If it was so good why hasnt a fully supported version of this UNIX rip off ever taken off.

PS
Notice that "Report offensive content" button, I should use that on all you linux "gurus" for offending the rest of the IT communities intelligence.

you tools.

The "toy OS" Anonymous -- 12/09/09 (in reply to #320127890)

That "toy OS" runs the New York Stock Exchange. There was someone stupid enough last year to run a stock exchange on Microsoft software. They don't have a job now.

TCO ? Its Free.

Missed the boat ? What boat was that ? Never taken off ? I'd say it has taken off, its very popular, certainly popular enough to start arguments in this forum.

Do you use Google ? Own a Netgear or Linksys modem or router ? A ReadyNAS ? How about a Palm Pre or Nokia smartphone ? A Sony PS3 perhaps ? Ever stood near a POS terminal at the checkout at Woolworths ? That LG TV ? A TiVo maybe ? Watched a blockbuster movie from Dreamworks or Lucasfilm ? The list goes on and on... Linux has crept quietly into all sorts of places you've never even thought about.

If Linux does not influence your life in some way, you're probably dead. I'd check my pulse if I were you.

$2000 per netbook? Seriously? Anonymous -- 03/04/09

According to this report:

http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/297696/nsw_education_drops_150m_267_000_school_notebooks?fp=16&fpid=1

the netbooks will cost over $2000 each to deploy and maintain.

Figures I've seen for netbooks running off educational Linux USB keys show a cost of $500 per unti to deploy and maintain.

Why has the DET opted for something 3 times more expensive?

As an Australian taxpayer, I want to know why 75% of my taxes in this project were wasted.

The question is the answer... Anonymous -- 03/04/09

"Instead, I wonder how, given a plausible reason to, NSW could possibly refuse the chance to turn hundreds of thousands of students into armchair software developers by giving them Linux laptops armed with software development tools and all the room and encouragement to tinker and build great things that open source software offers."

The average bureaucrat in a position of decision-making authority (in a government education ministry, even more so) is of course very disturbed, if not outright terrified, by the mere notion of giving young students any real options or power to act independently.

opensource Anonymous -- 06/04/09

they could of at least used openoffice, insist that firefox be the default installed web browser at the bare minimum!

Nothing to do with windows being bad Anonymous -- 10/04/09

I think that Linux should have been taken seriously in the tender process.

I think that Windows XP is the wrong OS because these are intended to be netbooks. M$ has fooled students and teachers into thinking they have solved all of their computing needs with an OS which can do "everything". Soon enough the curriculum will be shaped around high end tasks which the supplied netbooks are not well suited to. Soon enough there will be pressure to roll out faster laptops with more OS features (can everyone say vista). This will result in cost blowout and an easy profit for M$.

Web based and thin client services are going to be the cornerstone of educational software. It would be far better to simply accept that they should ship the cheapest possible netbook (which could be linux based) and get on with providing the infrastructure and training to deploy educational applications.

How do you know it wasn't? Anonymous -- 11/04/09 (in reply to #320129310)

How do you know it was not tested, evaluated, and discounted?

How do we know it was? PlotZ -- 01/05/09 (in reply to #320129357)

How do we know it was? And seriously?

Unless there's proof to this effect, then it didn't happen.

Seriously, this is the secretive DET we're talking about here, with faceless public servants. Do you take them at their word? Seriously?

Remember, Microsoft has deep pockets... pockets which can buy a lot of decisions.

The future.... Mr. MR -- 22/04/09

This has been an interesting read. Emotional posturing aside; the differing core issues and beliefs expressed indicates a vibrant and ongoing area for growth.
Rather than debating the "who is better than whom" (which will never truly be resolved due to our passion for an individual point of view.), i would pose the question; " How long do we think it will take for the OS market to equalise in share, so as to reduce the points of risk for an entity to have a safe market choice?"

It has taken many years for an embattled Apple to find/re-find its footing and then create increasing commercial traction in the Personal Computer market. However Apple has a fair history to build from.

Microsoft went relatively unchallenged for many years, giving it the time to expand and grow in the market.
Then of course - do we need to compete?
What happens when Apple or Linux or another solution becomes the dominant power?
These same forums will pose the same issues but with a "Poor M$" bent

So how does one compete with a giant? They same way we always have. Replicate and innovate.

Apple is there doing it, all the open source communities are doing it. It just takes time.

Rather than wasting energy (which can be replaced), and time (which cannot be replaced) fighting over this. How do we improve, and/or innovate into the future?

Saying one OS is better is a waste of effort, unless you can justify the comment for a specific subset of situations. Even then it is only a statistical value, there will be situations where i am sure Amiga or TRS-80 Kernel could still be a viable solution.

Going back to the original story, i get the feeling, and this is a personal opinion i am sure not shared by everyone, that the fear is not about the viability of the technology. The emotion is directed at the prose of the writing. The author, intended or not, sets the scene of big business manipulation of our choices with the colourful "Flanked by heavyweights from Microsoft and Chinese PC manufacturer Lenovo,....."

And the equally artistic "... "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" danced through this writer's mind....."

This piece appears it was designed to incite exactly the response seen here in the comments. In that case it has been well written piece.

Good point Anonymous -- 24/04/09 (in reply to #320131044)

I've often wondered if the writers are paid bonuses for higher talkback?

Bonuses for higher talkback Renai LeMay -- 24/04/09 (in reply to #320131663)

I wish. Actually, can you suggest this to my bosses? ;)

Renai

Cheers! Renai LeMay -- 24/04/09 (in reply to #320131044)

Why thank you!

I wrote the yarn to stimulate discussion and debate on this important issue; but everything in it is my opinion.

Cheers,

Renai LeMay
News Editor
ZDNet.com.au