Full Duplex by David Braue

A view from the trenches of Australian telecommunications. As the name implies, it’s a two-way conversation and we ask you not to pull any punches ... we won’t.

Dear Telstra: pack up your toys, go home

Posted by David Braue @ 16:30 221 comments

If you've ever played a board game with a young child, you've probably dealt with the internal struggles one faces in trying to establish a fair contest. Do you just let them win to boost their confidence; do you whip them outright to build their constitution; or, perhaps, do you agree to their requests for one-sided rule changes that favour their particular capabilities?

As Telstra's embarrassing half-response to the Federal government's NBN tender rockets through the media today, I couldn't help but think that the company's board has been spending a bit too much time playing Monopoly — the board game — with their grandchildren.

And not only have they been offering small perks like the pick-up-the-fines-when-you-land-on-Free-Parking or get-$500-when-you-land-on-Go rules, but they're likely relaxing hotel zoning laws and actively dipping into the bank to slip money into the lucky grandkids' hands. Is that a casino I see over on Ventnor Avenue?

Telstra has submitted not an NBN bid, but a proposal that basically flips Conroy the bird and promises Telstra will still come to the table

This sort of thing just doesn't fly in the real world — but the people behind Telstra's bid just don't seem to have gotten that particular memo.

After months spent unsuccessfully trying to wrangle special concessions from Senator Stephen Conroy, Telstra has submitted not an NBN bid, but a proposal that basically flips Conroy the bird and promises Telstra will still come to the table — later, and on its terms — if the government wants it to.

Incredibly, the terms of Telstra's proposal don't even vaguely resemble the requirements of the NBN RFP. Now, I know this issue will be dissected a hundred ways to Sunday before the week is over, but here are a few major points to contemplate:

Telstra is proposing to invest up to $5 billion in the new network. This gives a total network value of just $9.7 billion — about half the $20 billion at which Telstra executives priced the network at the company's annual general meeting last Friday.

This means either Telstra has decided to do its sums using the same number system as Terria and other analysts — who have repeatedly slammed Telstra's inflationary estimates — or that Telstra's proposal is more limited in scope than what it was previously suggesting.

Amazingly, the latter seems to be true. Telstra's proposal says that "up to 90 per cent of the population would be covered".

Even those with a casual interest in the bid know Conroy has explicitly required "high-speed, fibre-based broadband network, providing downlink speeds of at least 12 megabits per second to 98 per cent of Australian homes and businesses". It's right there on the NBN main page.

Which version have Telstra's executives been reading?

Telstra's underdone, useless proposal is ... an offer that, when Conroy gets tired of what Telstra feels are unequal rivals, he is welcome to crawl back to kiss McGauchie's proverbial

Telstra's proposal will deliver 25Mbps to 50Mbps to "65 percent to 75 percent of the footprint" and "between 12Mbps and 20 Mbps" to everyone else. The remaining 10 per cent of Australians get ... just what they have now.

For most, that will be the sad reality for some time, since Telstra seems to be cabling rural areas on an as-needs basis — witness its $5.5m investment in rural south-east Queensland, announced on the eve of the NBN deadline.

Telstra's proposal talks about "a $29.95 per month entry level 1Mbps retail broadband pricing plan" over its new network. Again, what proposal is Telstra reading? I thought it was pretty clear to everyone that 1Mbps services were to go the way of the dodo.

The NBN is about progress, not about spending billions of taxpayers money to get a service slower than what I can already get today from the likes of TPG, iiNet, and others.

Telstra wants the government's $4.7 billion provided as a concessional loan, not a straightforward contribution. Despite the clear desire of the government to have an equity stake in the NBN through its contribution — and, potentially, to get a return for taxpayers as the network takes off — Telstra wants it structured as a loan, of all things.

This, of course, is so Telstra can pay back the loan and eventually own 100% of Australia's next-generation broadband network. Does this sound like what you voted for?

Telstra's proposal is nonbinding — just a promise of what it might deliver if the government makes the concessions it has so far refused to. I don't recall this possibility ever being described in the tender documents. Telstra was supposed to submit its NBN bid, and it did not.

Telstra called a press meeting to announce its lodgement with 45 minutes' notice, and unfortunately I couldn't make it. But I was at Telstra's AGM last Friday, and I was somewhat amazed (albeit not too surprised) to see chairman Donald McGauchie continuing to rail against the government and call for regulatory guarantees that Conroy had explicitly ruled out just the day before.

Conroy may have his own shortcomings, but his refusal to cave in to Telstra's demands for preferential treatment are to be commended. By pushing its own party line right up to the deadline, Telstra has not only shown that its executives are simply not paying attention — but that they have managed to get themselves ruled out of the running for the NBN entirely.

Rejecting Telstra's proposal, after all, is the only conclusion Conroy can reach: as someone whose entire philosophy is built around transparency and process, he simply cannot keep Telstra as part of the NBN bidding process anymore.

they have managed to get themselves ruled out of the running for the NBN entirely

Its proposal falls short of the tender's requirements in so many areas that any other conclusion would be both a fatal lapse of prudence, and a slap in the face to the three (or more) other companies that duly submitted compliant bids in good faith.

I am reminded, suddenly, of the (quite funny, if you haven't seen it) movie Forgetting Sarah Marshall, in which the aforementioned Ms Marshall dumps our anti-hero protagonist, only to try to get back together with him — in a way that is far too risque` to describe in a PG-rated blog — when she comes to regret jettisoning him.

He is tempted for a second, but then realises that, even though it would have been inconceivable to him throughout most of the movie, he is better off without her.

When shareholders grill the management about its exclusion from the NBN at next year's AGM, Telstra will blame the government. But in truth, it has only its stubbornness (and, its bid suggests, inattention) to blame. Telstra's underdone, useless proposal is exactly the same as Ms Marshall's: an offer that, when Conroy gets tired of what Telstra feels are unequal rivals, he is welcome to crawl back to kiss McGauchie's proverbial.

After more than a decade of Telstra's utter contempt for Australia's broadband policies and technological future, and a proposal that reflects more of the same, one can only hope that Conroy is equally strong-willed.

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Talkback 221 comments

    Telstra Non-Bid? Anonymous -- 26/11/08

    So if Telstra has submitted a non-bid and someone else wins the contract and rolls out fibre to the nodes, will they have to pay Telstra for access to the last mile of copper? Can the government take away this asset from Telstra and pay them a nominal fee? Can Telstra bog down the whole rollout in the courts?

    Telstra does not care for Australia one bit! Phil Hopkins -- 26/11/08

    Well written article. Exactly how are the Australian taxpayers expected to spend $5 billion for an entry broadband level plan that is available today. As an example I have a 24mbps service, with 25 gigabytes of downlaod for $60 a month at the moment. A 1mbps service is 12 times slower than requested in the proposal and 200mb of download is pathetic. This is Telstra at its spurious worst.

    Telstra shareholders should be replacing this management that has submitted a pathetic and incompetent bid designed in contempt of the tender and the Australian people.

    Shame on you telstra, shame. How do you sleep at night?

    Re: Telstra does not care for Australia one bit! RB -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117147)

    Direct quote from Donald McGauchie (Telstra chairman):

    "The entry price [referring to the $29.95 per month entry level 1Mbps retail broadband pricing plan] includes a telephone line, basic access and then a basic access to a broadband capacity."

    How much do you currently pay for line rental?

    The only reason why this plan exists is to offer a cheap entry-level broadband package for those who aren't interested in speed/high capacity.

    Maybe Telstra cares a little more than perceived.

    Caring Telstra Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117453)

    Just another Telstra shareholder's important view!
    Pointless!

    Re: Caring Telstra RB -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117484)

    Haha. No Rex. It's fact.

    I usually like to base my arguments on factual information.

    In contrast, your responses are filled with emotional waffle and general statements with no basis of proof, and as such I wouldn't bother replying to the majority of them.

    Your blind ignorance leads me to believe that you are a deluded individual living in a fairytale environment.

    The problem I have with this article is that conclusions are drawn on inaccurate facts.

    Example from the article: "Telstra's proposal will deliver 25Mbps to 50Mbps to "65 percent to 75 percent of the footprint" and "between 12Mbps and 20 Mbps" to everyone else. The remaining 10 per cent of Australians get ... just what they have now."

    This is inaccurate. The NBN footprint refers to 98% of the population. The understanding of this statement is that:
    -65-75% of consumers in the NBN footprint will get 20-50Mbps
    -25-35% of consumers in the NBN footprint will get 12-20Mbps

    Clear?

    The only valid statement that David could have made was that the remaining 2% get what they have now. Incidentally, this satisfies the NBN requirements.

    Another statement as follows: "Telstra's proposal talks about "a $29.95 per month entry level 1Mbps retail broadband pricing plan" over its new network. Again, what proposal is Telstra reading? I thought it was pretty clear to everyone that 1Mbps services were to go the way of the dodo."

    This was widely interpreted as Telstra providing subpar services, and charging ridiculous amounts for it.

    I'd like to reiterate that this is a purposefully designed entry-level plan, since Telstra wanted to cater for the needs of all users.

    As mentioned before, 98% of the population will have access to 12Mbps at minimum.

    The 1Mbps entry level plan is for those who will receive FTTN, but don't need/don't want to pay for 12Mbps.

    My recommendation to Rex is to find some substance before posting.

    re: Caring Telstra Anonymous -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117532)

    RB, you're way off the mark... To quote from Mr McGauchie's press release of 26/11 (http://www.telstra.com.au/abouttelstra/media/announcements_article.cfm?ObjectID=44024):

    "Telstra today provided the Federal Government with a proposal to build a world-class open access National Broadband Network (NBN) capable of delivering high-speed access to up to 90 per cent of Australians."

    I repeat: UP TO 90 PER CENT OF AUSTRALIANS

    So 10% of us will not get what is required. Sounds like a non-compliant bid to me, and your "blind ignorance" leads me to believe that YOU are living in a fairytale environment.

    Clear?

    Get your facts right if you're going to complain that others aren't getting theirs right.

    re: Caring Telstra RB -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117710)

    Thanks for your addition; I probably need to explain further so you understand the basis of my point.

    I'm not even going to touch the issue of Telstra's bid being non-compliant, since it's not a bid. It's a proposal for a bid.

    As I said in another post, Telstra performed analysis showing the exponential growth in cost by creating a network with 98% coverage.

    Telstra's math looks something like this:
    -$9.8 billion buys 90% NBN coverage
    -$20 billion buys 98% NBN coverage

    There's a clear lack of value in spending an additional $10 billion for an added 8% coverage.

    In Telstra's proposal, wireless technologies are mentioned as a method of bridging the remaining 8% of coverage required.

    This is one of the reasons why Telstra refused to put forward a compliant bid. They see clear technological and financial issues with the RFP issued by the government.

    Essentially what they're saying is that, whilst they would like to build the NBN, there are some requirements from the RFP that don't make technological/financial sense. Thus they sent through a proposal for a bid including:
    -The best cost vs benefit ratio point (90%)
    -The reasons why it would be unfeasible to extend a FTTN beyond 90% coverage
    -Alternative suggestions to reach the remaining 8%

    If the government were to go ahead and request a bid based on Telstra's advice, they could expect to receive high speed access for near 100% of Australians, via a mixture of FTTN and wireless technologies. It would also be done for $5 billion less than what Optus proposed.

    Makes sense to me.

    @ re: Caring Telstra Anonymous -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117718)

    But didn't Acacia or AXIA propose 100% coverage? Without the additional costs that Telstra said? I don't know if that's possible but I'd like to see it done

    NBN Anonymous -- 17/12/08 (in reply to #320117453)

    You are spot on. There seems to be a lot of people on this site who are blinded by their hatred of Telstra. As part of the RFP they were asked to include an 'entry level package'. I wonder what the other proponents are offering as 'entry level'. And NO - I don't work for Telstra. I do have a bit more of an open mind that a lot of the people on here seem to have.

    What about the shareholders Terry -- 26/11/08

    The sad thing here is that Telstra value their shareholders above all else, but the bid they have submitted today is a waste of time and an insult to those shareholders.

    Mission impossible. Sydney Lawrence -- 26/11/08 (in reply to #320117150)

    Calm down before you all demonstrate your irrational anti Telstra lunacy.

    Telstra presents facts and a plan that is realistic. Others presents dreams that will bring abject failure and disaster for the Australian taxpayer.

    To have any hope of success the Telstra opponents will need to confiscate Telstra equipment and customers. Please Senator Conroy be very careful.

    @Mission impossible. Terry -- 26/11/08 (in reply to #320117156)

    "Telstra presents facts and a plan that is realistic. Others presents dreams that will bring abject failure and disaster for the Australian taxpayer."

    Realistic maybe, meeting the compliance of what the NBN required, no.

    The folly here is not whether Telstra is right or not with what can be delivered, it's their last minute 'this is the only way to do it listen to us' notion and their somewhat expectation that people will bow to their wishes and forget what the NBN was actually intended to do and deliver.

    This is the same thing that happened when OPEL won the bid, and like that time around Telstra won't win this bid. What they will do is fight tooth and nail to hinder whoever does win the bid.

    hellooooooo Anonymous -- 26/11/08 (in reply to #320117162)

    opel were a sham like terria, will you ever wake up?

    @hellooooooo Terry -- 26/11/08 (in reply to #320117181)

    Correct, and the Telstra bid is as much a shame as OPEL.

    @@hellooooo Anonymous -- 26/11/08 (in reply to #320117190)

    ah terry, sham, not shame. they, opel and terria, were shams and shameful, i agree.

    but as i said below, even telstra's half bid is half a bid more than terria, haha.

    @@@hellooooo Terry -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117192)

    "ah terry, sham, not shame. they, opel and terria, were shams and shameful, i agree."

    Thanks for the correction, but I meant shame and not sham. It's a shame that OPEL's tender was cancelled as even though it wasn't the best plan it would still have created a building block, and it's a shame that the only thing Telstra as Australia's largest carrier could bring to the table is this piece of garbage bid that fails to even strike the surface of the NBN requirements.

    Real World, Not NWAT Anonymous -- 26/11/08 (in reply to #320117156)

    There is nothing irrational about it Sydney. Please spare us your NWAT rhetoric. Telstra did not present anything today, not a proposal for a world leading network, no idea's, but they did ask for a back room deal. The rest offered up the best possible solution for Australian Internet. Well done to TERRIA and Acacia, credit to you.

    tttt's nt the real world fool. wake up Anonymous -- 26/11/08 (in reply to #320117169)

    just shows what a blind fool you are, terria did not bid. optus bid, not terria. even if telstra put in half a bid, its half a bid more than terria. liars.

    once again for all the dummies - optus spokesman, Mr Krishnapillai said.

    'terria decided against submitting its own bid due to legal technicalities concerning each stakeholders ownership rights'.

    at least get something right before trying to put someone else in their place.

    if this doesn't finally make you ***king idiots realize terria always was a sham, nothing ever will. but i guess in a years time, terria will be the legend that would have been, just like opel. haha

    you poor sorry ***kwits.

    @tttt's nt the real world fool. wake up Akira Doe -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117180)

    I guess it could be looked at as a sham depending on how far you lean towards Telstra.

    I appreciate the efforts of Terria. If it wasn't for them there would be no voice apposing Telstra and our brand new NBN would be a blazing 1Mbps speed capped network with exorbitant profit margins.

    Thanks to Terria, bid or no bid, there has been some real debate on the issue, not NWAT rubbish trying to trick the Government and the people of Australia into a monumental waste of money only to strengthen Telstra ability to squeeze every penny out of the Australian Internet Public and ensure their monopolistic ways for years to come.

    At least Terria's "sham" bid was intended to defend the Australian public (and the industry), unlike Telstra's which seems that even though we are heading into some tough economic times, lets drive the spike even deeper by offering a sub-par network option that is already stated as being under speed, pathetic "data usage limits" (you can bet that stated 200mb will include uploads) at what will no doubt be as over priced if not more than their current offering. I know this is just the proposed entry level plan, but are they serious?!

    Telstra winning the Bid will be the best option since they own the current infrastructure, I don't think many people really can argue that, but them winning on their own terms would literally be the end of innovation in this area in this country. We can't have them setting the wholesales and retail pricing structure like they have for the Copper/ADSL market again. Anyone remember the "3GB Cap + $139/GB excess fees" era? Thanks to competitions and other ISP you might not, which proves my point. Separation of the Wholesales and Retails arms of whoever does build the NBN sounds better and better, or at the very least heavy regulation to ensure the best for the people, not Telstra/Optus/Whoever builds. Lets not forget as we move into the future, broadband is heading into the category of "Utility" more and more.

    How long did it take Telstra to uncap ADSL1 speeds, and then they priced it so high anyway... And now the same for their ADSL2 network...

    Once their NBN is built are we going to see the same handling of the network and anticompetitive behaviour?

    Sadly, my money is on yes. And since I'm a tax payer, it's not just my money on yes, it's everyone elses!

    Signed: Unhappy Telstra Shareholder and pro next generation broadband network for the AUSTRALIAN PEOPLE, not us Telstra Shareholders at the expense of this great country.

    Sad Case Mate Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117180)

    The fact that you don't get your point across that well is balanced with the fact that you have an argument without a point. Therefore you reduce the whole thing to you only ability which is to slaughter everybody with abuse which doesn't work either. Doesn't it make you feel small.
    The fact that you remain anonymouse, notice the e added to the end Mr Squeaker, shows what a bully you are. Cowardly abuser.

    well said Anonymous -- 26/11/08 (in reply to #320117156)

    this article is pure tripe coming from zdnet that ignores all the core issues and turns a multibillion dollar project into a perceived schoolyard slinging of words.

    quality journalism
    quality

    zdnet drops further in rankings of decent IT reading

    Shareholders!!! Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117150)

    No man, they care about the board, only the board & the zillions they get paid. They treat their staff with contempt their shareholders nearly as bad.

    @what about Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117150)

    once again geek boy, shows just how naive you are.

    thats what all companies do, not just telstra, they make profits for their owners, the shareholders. optus, bhp and the ***king adult shop, they are doing it for their owners the shareholders. you do realize being a shareholder means you are a part owner of that business.

    when you grow up and own your own business i'm sure youll want want part of not most of the cream too, thats the way it is.

    if you dont like it move to north korea.

    Last mile copper Anonymous -- 26/11/08

    Of course if anyone but Telstra wins the bid they will have to pay Telstra a lot of money to use Telstra copper. Especially if the competitors want to do a whole node cutover, it will be tied up in the courts for many years. Telstra is the only one with the money to build it

    Telstra needs too.. Anonymous -- 26/11/08

    Just bog off their unrealistic pricing and download allowances is enough to be the brunt of all jokes.

    look outside the square david ned kelly -- 26/11/08

    david, as usual you show your lack of business acumen and typical blinkered IT outlook (pun intended).

    whilst most of us dislike the telstra approach, i must admit even only a few days ago i was wondering how they could get out of this. lo and behold, that's exactly what they have done and thrown down the gauntlet to the government.

    it may not be a palattable approach, but in business terms it is most forthright.

    here's what i wrote on another zd article.

    i must admit i haven't gone over the nbn bids with a fine toothed comb just yet, but on the surface, it appears as though telstra have out thought the government and their rivals.

    firstly, i have said for ages terria isn't serious and although it also seems to have largely been ignored or overlooked, terria per se don't appear to have bid. a bid went in by optus who put in two expressions of interest earlier. one expression alone and another with terria. seems the optus bid and not the terria bid has been submitted, with the rest of terria tagging along. in hindsight it would make sense as some wondered early on why the two expressions of interest from optus.

    but telstra, very shneaky, they are saying, ok you build the nbn in the remote outback and we will, if we wish, access as a wholesaler, your lovely new nbn in these areas.

    in the meantime we will *keep* rolling out our own networks in the more populated areas. and, by the way, it will be our network, which like adsl2, we will decide who, if when our competitors can access.

    perhaps the only possible counter is a fully government built network or the remaining bidders all teaming up?

    but legally, that may need a whole new bidding process.

    maybe in just doing a skim over, i have misread the sitation, so please correct me if im wrong.

    How Telstra could "get out of this" David Braue -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117161)

    Lack of business acumen or not, I think you and I are saying many of the same things.

    Telstra had pushed its rhetoric so far that it couldn't save face by backing down and submitting an unconditional bid; this would have been tantamount to conceding its argument against separation. I saw Donald McGauchie speak at the AGM last week and his demeanour was one of almost downright hostility towards the government's refusal to play on his terms.

    This made a clean, compliant bid unlikely. However, it would have been a grossly negligent action on the part of its directors to fail to submit a bid because part of their responsibility is to explore options to grow Telstra's business, and I don't think anybody is pretending the NBN wouldn't be good for Telstra.

    Telstra's decision to submit a non-bid is, as you say, a way of bowing out of the NBN tender without totally losing face. They have no intention of actually winning the tender -- and there is no way with proper probity that the bid review panel can rightly consider Telstra's bid. So Telstra will be out of the running for the NBN and, as you say, allow the NBN's eventual winner to build out a proper rural network on which it can piggyback. This is actually the subject of next week's blog (ssssshhhh) and will be a point of much debate over time.

    What I find interesting is all the slamming of Terria -- it has been clear for a long time that Terria was mainly Optus' baby, with moral (and promised financial) support from the other players. OK, whatever.

    The point is that there are three non-Telstra, presumably comprehensive, options for building Australia's next generation network. To assume, without anybody having actually seen any of them, that they are somehow invalid and that we will have to go running back to Telstra, is rather defeatist at this point in the game.

    The frustrating thing is that for all the enthusiasm we all have, we now have to wait months to see whether and how Conroy's clear and transparent selection runs its course. We'll also need to see how well Conroy can protect the process from the inevitable legal challenges Telstra will mount. Expect Opel but 10 times worse.

    but what about the copper david? Paul -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117305)

    I've got to ask David, whats your thoughts on the network that Telstra own. How do you think they will propose to get around the fact that Telstra owns it short of massive compensation?

    Im interested to hear your opinion.

    @but what about the copper david? Terry -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117323)

    "I've got to ask David, whats your thoughts on the network that Telstra own. How do you think they will propose to get around the fact that Telstra owns it short of massive compensation?"

    I have to ask, for what reason would Telstra get compensation to being with? Telstra would be fairly paid for the use of it's copper pairs just as it is now, so I'm not quite sure what the issue is.

    Fairly Paid for use? Paul -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117355)

    Hi Terry.

    As the NBN needs groundwork to be built upon, unless of course theyre going to make a brand new footprint for it all, thats going to require them to build upon Telstras infrastructure which was sold as part of the privatisation of Telstra.

    Telstra have full right to deny them the right to take the network and use to as the basis for their own. In fact, if someone else wins, they have every right to use that network to build their OWN network.

    So who is going to pay Telstra compensation for seizing their equiptment?

    Also, im assuming that USO obligations etc will go to whoever takes over the NBN, so I wonder if they have worked out the cost of that obligation as well.

    Its a serious question Terry, not trying to be picky or anything, its still my burning question.

    "If your going to forcibly take the assets of Telstra to create the new build, who is going to pay Telstra for the loss of customers and equiptment, any downtime to their services, etc etc etc"

    As far as I can see, taking or nationalising the infrastructure, by our constitution, cannot be done without fair and reasonable reperations.

    anyone please! correct me if im wrong since obviously im not a constituional lawyer, but I'd really like to know how thats supposed to pan out.

    @ Fairly Paid for use Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117418)

    Easy - see what Axia said. They don't need Telstra's infrastructure, and they did the same thing in Canada.

    Everywhere else in the world that this has happened, the incumbent has remained adamant until someone else has received their version of our NBN and then they've turned around and said "oh actually we will take your money for using our infrastructure... now that you mention it"

    it wouldn't be in the stakeholders best interest if Telstra DIDN'T take that money.

    re anonymous Paul -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117423)

    I'd be happy to see someone open a competing network. It would be great to see some real investment I think.

    Best for all.

    Telstra copper David Braue -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117534)

    Realistically, the only way to replace the last-mile copper network completely is via either (a) wireless local loop, (b) laying new infrastructure eg HFC, which has only been done on large scale by Optus but, like Telstra, ran into its own issues, or (c) continuing the existing pattern of buying wholesale copper line access from Telstra. Telstra is currently making heaps from this business every year, I would suggest it would benefit nobody (and would create a slam-dunk case for separation of Telstra) if Telstra refused to let anybody use its copper.

    Just a silly suggestion RL -- 26/11/08

    In my opinion, if Terria wins the bid, then Axia and Acacia should team up with Terria so that together they can gather up the money they need to provide broadband to 100 percent of the population (See Acacia's bid) using FTTH, FTTN, Wireless and Satellite.

    Meanwhile TransACT can provide up to 100Mbps to 98 percent of ACT and the Tasmania government can do the same for Tasmania. Sounds like a silly idea, but we could at least try.

    Just a silly suggestion Bushy -- 26/11/08 (in reply to #320117163)

    No not a silly suggestion at all..that's what should happen and the Telstra non conforming bid should be sent back to them...I'l would love to personally deliver it to Sol.

    @bushy Anonymous -- 26/11/08 (in reply to #320117201)

    deliver terrias to egan too. oh that's right, they didn't submit one, haha.

    Is this necessary? David Braue -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117163)

    I find it interesting that everyone assumes Axia and Acacia and Optus/Terria haven't submitted perfectly legitimate bids in their own right. Axia has done this sort of thing before, Acacia has been doing goodness-knows-what, and Optus, however you feel about it, and 3G dramas notwithstanding, has 15 years' experience building and maintaining fixed infrastructure. Is everybody feeling that defeated that we can't consider the possibility the other bidders could actually make this happen?

    How the worm turns. Sydney Lawrence -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117163)

    RL. Terria did not bid. Re TransACT and the Tassie Government , their bids are non-compliant as the call was for a NATIONAL Broadband Network.

    TransACT & Tassie aren't non compliant Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117382)

    Sydney I think you'll find that the RFP doesn't specify that the one company has to be the NATIONAL provider, despite the first N in the acronym standing for National. If enough people in every state and territory had bid, we all could have had separate providers, providing that combined it reached 98% of people - Very clever of TransACT and Tassie I think, I hope they get it done!

    a hodgepodge of different providers Paul -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117402)

    That would be a terrible outcome. People complain about the inefficency of Telstra, imagine how bloody awful it would be if lets say, you were moving state and your provider had to contact multiple companies, who then have to work together to get your service moved.

    it'd be a bloody mess!

    personal opinion of course, but tis not exactly the height of efficiency.

    Not Agreeing Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117420)

    The whole idea here is to have a workable scheme. If this scheme were to go ahead it would have to include infrastructure crossover & compatibility. It would need to take into consideration travellers & travelling workers so whilst that scenario would need some working out it could still work across the board.
    Just the same I thought the system had to be National but I don't mind the idea of a state-run system. It has to be better, faster & cheaper than that scummy monopoly we have to deal with here.

    Very good point David Braue -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117420)

    But remember that the NBN is a wholesale network -- the average person won't change providers or have to deal with any of the intricacies it presents.

    Having said that, it would be a recipe for disaster (a repeat of the rail gauge joke) were the NBN to be a largely federated array of separate networks. Not only would it add technical complexity, but it would cloud the ROI for each of the involved providers -- I suspect it wouldn't fly too far except for providing access to areas where another bid didn't cover.

    @just Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117163)

    ah hellooo, terria didn't bid.

    Best for Consumers Anonymous -- 26/11/08

    I hope to Dear God that tel$tra do not build the NBN

    I pray to the lord, that it is someone else, e.g. Optus and friends, and that they build a high quality NBN with a structurally, legally seperate entity operating a high speed Australia wide wholesale broadband network with access provided to all retailers on an equal basis.

    high quality? optus? Anonymous -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117164)

    Sadly I think youll find that high quality/Optus would be considered an oxymoron (contradiction in terms). I cant believe anyone wants Optus to do jack after the recent queensland fiasco.

    lol joe -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117283)

    I certainly do, I'm on an optus phone line, and optus mobile, optus internet,
    Terrificly happy with the service they provide!

    only issue i ever had was setting up my ADSL password (confusion over whether they did my pass with a capital or not)

    Issue with telstra though! thats for sure, when are they gonna let iinet into my local exchange?!?!

    @lol Paul -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117286)

    Im happy you've had such a great experience Joe.

    Personally though, your own case aside, i'd be more than slightly worried to think that if there was a service outage, lets say in metro melbourne, that all the bloody traffic lights wouldnt work until they got their **** together, and really, who wants to take that kind of risk?

    What if their outage affected 000?

    How many times has a major Telstra outage, Caused by engineering and not by a major service disruption, caused that kind of havoc?

    Now im not saying it will happen, this is all hypothetical, but i'd rather go with the people who have the prior history of making things such as emergency services work smoothly telecommunications wise.

    Just my opinion.

    Ask and yo shall receive. Maybe. Sydney Lawrence -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117164)

    I hope and pray that Almighty God does not deliver the pestilence of an Optus build on the Australian taxpayer. We have suffered enough!

    True Sydney true! Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117383)

    We have suffered enough from a scummy monopoly for too long now. Optus whilst not perfect are perhaps attempting a service, something the scummy monopoly has managed to avoid for years.

    When was that now? Oh that's right, ever since Optus was given the right to compete.

    Better Network Anonymous -- 26/11/08

    To add to my previous comments,

    We should be aiming to build a network to rival the likes of South Korea

    Failing that, we should at a minimum, be aiming for a minimum speed of 100Mbps or more Fibre To The Home (FTTH) 100GB transfers per month, for less than $100 per month.

    1Mbps proposals are ridiculous, 1Gbps is more like it!

    It is actually quite feasible to provide 100Mbps services at affordable prices to households living in capital cities

    Does not suprise me Anonymous -- 26/11/08

    I have seen Telstra play this game many times before in other commercial RFP processors with enterprises. Show up with a half baked bid on the assumption that they are the best show in town and you can't tango without them.

    If nothing else, they just need to be treated like the petulant children they are and taught a lesson. I'd pay $5B for that. I really hope Conroy has the guts to see this through properly.

    calling all terria idiots please apologize to sydney Anonymous -- 26/11/08

    reverse a few days, weeks, months. words of wisdom from the telstra haters. terria will save us from the price gouging, monopolists.

    fast forward to today. optus spokesman, Mr Krishnapillai said

    'Terria decided against submitting its own bid due to legal technicalities concerning each stakeholders ownership rights'.

    rofl, syndey, ned and others before them said it was an $8 shelf company like opel, and you guys put ***t on him. whos the ***kheads now?

    so who's man enough to now say, sorry uncle syd - lmfao

    Apologise, not apologize! Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117174)

    So, you're not only a Telstra shareholder & possibly a board member, you have the literary genius of a board member, you're American. The spelling here in Ozland comes with an s not a z - lmfao!

    Hold on David Anonymous -- 26/11/08

    "Telstra is proposing to invest up to $5 billion in the new network. This gives a total network value of just $9.7 billion — about half the $20 billion at which Telstra executives priced the network at the company's annual general meeting last Friday.

    This means either Telstra has decided to do its sums using the same number system as Terria and other analysts — who have repeatedly slammed Telstra's inflationary estimates — or that Telstra's proposal is more limited in scope than what it was previously suggesting."

    Hold on, I don't see the inconsistency in Telstra's position here. They said today that their proposal was more limited in scope. So David is it possible that "inflationary figures" as you call them ARE the figures for the full project as per the requirements of the tender i.e. the 98 per cent reach FTTN. Anyone could see that was going to blow-out. That estimate has been under-valued for years. Digging thousands of miles of fibre in the country???

    So what is wrong with what Telstra is saying today and how is it inconsistent?

    Anyway this tender has been so badly handled I find it astounding that Telstra has been criticised for an allegedly non-compliant bid.

    They're being asked to comply with an utterly flawed tender process. It's so woolly and its goals are obviously unreachable despite Opt-erria's claims.

    What the hell would any carrier do?

    Stupidly say that they can do it?

    You're commentary - and this is rare - is flawed.

    Sincerely,

    AJ

    Hold on David RB -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117178)

    Nothing has changed regarding the price that Telstra quoted for implementing the network.

    20 billion is the cost of creating 98% coverage.
    9.7 billion will buy up to 90% coverage, which is what Telstra is proposing.

    This was all made quite clear in Telstra's proposal.

    The lack of research that this article exhibits clearly leads to flawed arguments.

    You are 100% right David Braue -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117278)

    My research includes reading the same documents you are.

    Telstra has basically said they can deliver the NBN to 90% of Australia's population for $9.7b, and the other 10% will therefore, by their maths, cost about $10b more to broadband. The tone and structure of Telstra's non-responsive proposal confirm quite clearly that the company has decided that it is not willing to invest that other $10b to service what we can only assume are the rural areas in Australia that need the NBN the most.

    That's fine for Telstra, but the NBN was about delivering these services to 98 percent of the population so that everyone gets access to decent services -- it is not just to fund a Telstra network upgrade so it can skim off the most profitable customers and let someone else worry about the bush. Which is the position it has taken.

    And if Telstra says it will only invest so much, and Acacia/Optus/Axia say they can and will do the whole 98% with a technically sound solution, well, where would Telstra's role be in all this? Does Telstra even have to have a role?

    Telstra are in business for profit RB -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117312)

    It's important to note that Telstra is a business, and they're in business to be profitable.

    Telstra's analysis was realistic in that they identified the exponential growth in cost by creating a network with 98% coverage.

    They proposed creating a network that reaches 90% of the population, which offers the best cost-benefit ratio. No other bidder questioned the economic feasibility of creating a NBN with 98% coverage.

    Financially speaking, Telstra also have provided answers in how the project is to be funded. Adding 5 billion to the government's 4.7 billion will pay for 90% coverage.

    On the other hand, Optus (who proposed a 98% coverage solution) require an estimated 15 billion. With 4.7 billion in government money, and Optus offering to contribute up to 2 billion, where does the extra 8 billion come from?

    Telstra also have an answer for remote customers, proposing to implement mobile HSPA/LTE technologies to provide coverage for the remaining 10%. Again, rather than blindly accepting the government's RFP for 98% NBN coverage, their professional recommendation highlights that there are more cost effective ways of implementing the desired outcome.

    It leads to a conclusion that Telstra have the more rounded solution stemming from a better understanding and realistic view of their environment.

    Conroy/Labor is ridiculous Anonymous -- 26/11/08

    I find it a bit riduclous this whole tender process based on what the government is actually doing. Before the tender we debated on whether another entity can literally build on top of Telstra's property, this was a major obstacle. But with this 'tender' process we seem to have 'assumed' that the winner of the bid will have free reign to Telstra's property, based entirely on the fact that the government will throw in $4.7Bn. Now someone explain to me how throwing in half the cost will give winner of the tender the right to build on Telstra's infrastructure. This point and the issue of compensation has been mostly ignored, has Terria factored compensation costs into their $15Bn bill or are taxpayers going to have to fork up for that too down the road? They are going to offer so called 'competitive' pricing, but how competitive is it when it will costs taxpayers massive amounts to compensate Telstra.

    I dont consider any of the non-Telstra bids to be legitimate, hence I see Telstras rather smug letter as RFP to be an expression of this fact.
    Does a 900page proposal based on flimsy projections and business models make it any more credible? No. Telstra has implicitly stated that the government and all the other players should 'get real', if it wants a serious bid, it should go back to 2005 and see what Telstra has been proposing all along.

    You may not agree with Telstra's terms for the build, but at least it is based on fact, they are the only real player in this, and they have snub their noses as this government charade.

    David You're An Idiot. Anonymous -- 26/11/08

    It shows you've not little expertise in Tier 1 carrier engineering.

    There is a simple point I would like to make. You cannot begin building a national network without a highly experienced workforce at hand, and a highly groomed and capable support organisational structure to make such a thing possible. Bidders such as Axia, Acaia, TranACT are building from literally nothing. The mind boggles how much time and money it would require jsut to even get to the design level let alone rollout. As with many geeks here, they are ignorant to the fact that just having money doesnt mean you can purchase the materials and start building, and that all you need are engineers and technicians.

    A large portion of the time and money would have already gone into establishing an organisation structure, workforce and procedure, and then some. Telstra on the other hand has its 60,000 or so employees, many of whom are experienced and an organisational structure and plan capable of carrying out an efficient build, with little upstart costs.

    I guess thats what David would consider 'Toys' in this game

    huh? Terry -- 26/11/08 (in reply to #320117183)

    "Telstra on the other hand has its 60,000 or so employees"

    The last time Telstra had in excess of 60k employees was 1997, they're now down to just over 41k and have been steadily dropping.

    @huh Anonymous -- 26/11/08 (in reply to #320117189)

    rofl, down to pedantics now that you have realized how stupid you were for believing lets not bid terria. haha

    @@huh Terry -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117193)

    Actually the size of the workforce is highly relevant to a bidders ability to construct the network, and bloating these figures is as bad as bloating the guesstimated cost of building the NBN.

    lol joe -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117213)

    and almost none of those 31,000 are actually techs, lol, just give acacia/optus/who ever else service streams number and bingo! same build capactiy as telstra

    @@@huh Paul -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117213)

    So what your actively saying Terry is that none of the others have ANY chance of doing it, since they dont have anywhere near the amount of skilled workers in this area as Telstra?

    Since obviously its highly relevant to the bidders ability to make the network and basically all connections these days are done wholesale via Telstra techs, that would put all of those other companies in a crap and severely compromised position yes?

    @@@@huh Terry -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117289)

    "So what your actively saying Terry is that none of the others have ANY chance of doing it, since they dont have anywhere near the amount of skilled workers in this area as Telstra?"

    Absolutely not, what I was saying (and did say) is that bloating employee numbers to make yourself look better is as bad as bloating the overall cost of the NBN.

    Besides I'm sure that all the detailed submissions (excluding Telstra's of course) will cover things such as how they will obtaining the manpower to complete the NBN.

    "Since obviously its highly relevant to the bidders ability to make the network and basically all connections these days are done wholesale via Telstra techs, that would put all of those other companies in a crap and severely compromised position yes?"

    Basically all connections are done via Telstra wholesale techs? When did they happen? Sure it applies to fixed line (well the the copper portion anyway), but wireless, cable, and potentially fibre delivery will typically require zero Telstra involvement.

    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@x20 huh joe -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117295)

    actually terry, small mistake, but the correction backs up your story anyway...the wholesale techs are service stream and CNC... contractors, who are up for sale to who ever wants to pay... the network build ability is quite easily transferable from telstra to who ever

    Incorrect. Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117299)

    COmmon myth that ServiceStream, Silcar, Visionstream etc. form the bulk or 'are' Telstras network builders. Wrong. Telstra uses conctractors to do a considerable amount of their work yes, however the bulk of the work is done internally. In addition, the component done by these companies is mainly field work, which forms only a fraction of the workforce and business units required for a major infrastructure roll out. I don't have time to explain this in detail to you, if you are ignorant of Teir1 teleocmmunications engineering and operations, then you're simply that - ignorant. As for people who think that a network is built by buying hardware and simplying putting it in the ground, well you have little clue. The cumulative total and capability of contractors is nothing but a fraction of the workforce required, and those currently contracted fall mostly in construction, the easiest part to outsource, and this is only a fraction of the work involved.

    Capability Simon -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117395)

    My hope is Axia wins the bulk of the NBN build. They have the runs on the board without the retail presence to muddy the waters. Canadians have been building large fibre networks for years with similar build issues and population densities to Oz. I am certain that come recruiting time, many existing contactors, employees will gladly jump ship. The backend provisioning, scheduling and planning activity is what Axia are good at.

    to Simon Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117417)

    Simon, if I were crazy I would think you and I were the same person - I always find myself agreeing with what you say. Definitely going for Axia. I hope they just come in, do it all, and all the naysayers can shut up and be happy with their internet.

    @to simon and his faithful mut Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117425)

    not so long ago both you mirrored pair of ***kwits were cheering for terria, now terria have whimpered off sulking becasue optus told them to go and stand in the corner, you have magically decide to switch to (the coin is still spinning, wait, wait, axia - hooray), grow up.

    Jerk Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117441)

    You are a jerk mate & need to learn how to use this medium. You have no skill in debating at all, you just reduce everything to abuse. Why don't you just F-off.

    BTW, you are also a coward using an "anonymous" title.

    jerk yourself off, which is obvious Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117490)

    I reduce everything to abuse then you tell me to F- off. haha

    rex, sorry ***khead, you are a disgraceful pimple on the head of paul o'sullivan ***k.

    rex alfie lee to me may as well be anonymous because you and your 2 year old mentality opinions are of no consequence to normal humans you ***king halfwit.

    like i said, you can dish it out but cant take it little boy.

    @ jerk yourself off Anonymous -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117540)

    Anon is there any way you can make a post without reducing yourself to swearing? Everyone else seems to manage to hold a constructive debate and you reduce all of our conversations to childish curse words

    @ jerk ned kelly -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117618)

    in hindsight, think i may be partially to blame for anons, outbursts?

    in tha past i too have *sparingly* used these colorful words, as have many others, when heatedly discussing. seems anon has just really taken the ball and is running with it. FAST.

    my apologies for passing on my bad habits.

    @jerk ned Anonymous -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117650)

    yeah, your my hero. as if i'd copy a ***khead like you ned.

    Terria? Simon -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117441)

    I am not sure about "faithful mutt" (charming!) but I don't recall ever cheering for Terria but rather hoping for the best outcome for the NBN. My belief is that whoever wins the work must be a pure network wholesaler. By allowing Telstra to operate without structural sparation, Australia is worse off than it would otherwise have been. I want things to improve not stay the same.

    what more can I say Paul -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117395)

    bloody good point. Whilst I dont necessarily agree that not understanding Tier 1 Engineering for Telecommunications Networks means your Ignorant (except in that relevant field), thats a really good point to have made.

    @incorrect joe -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117432)

    partially agree on that one anon, I'm not talking about the brains behind the build been transferrable, but in regards to the field work of telstra, most of its done by contractors, I dispatch the buggers so i assume that i would know... the only time we have telstra techs is for the rural/remote areas that service stream/other wont service, so please dont give me that 'telstra does bulk' service stream even carry out the CNI's for tesltra, so unless you can tell me what department in telstra you work for, im going to assume i know more about techs and service stream...

    @Joe Anonymous -- 30/11/08 (in reply to #320117512)

    Serveral considerations. Telstra itself would struggle to build this, given even its current capabilities, all its internal 'business units', would have to be fattened up to make NBN possible. And I have to emphasise ALL, since like my previous post, NBN build invovles the entire telco functioning as one unit to deliver.

    At the moment external contractors handle the daily operational load, at an NBN level, construction wise, no-one has the capability without some major recruitment and training. Telstra however has the clear advantage it simply needs to beef up its existing workforce - it doesnt start from nothing, which is why I don't see any of the other bids as being viable at all, the question of resources, startup time, and operational capability, being on one of many major obstacles that the competitors cannot address adequately.

    @anon joe -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117582)

    actually, all it'd take is a phone call to the contractor company, and bang! same recruitment capability, offer them a bit more than telstra and contract switch! telstra has them on such a flimsy thing its a running joke... so my argument hear is, since the majority of tesltras work is contractor, and contractor is so easily transferable, all optus/axia/acacia have to do is have the plans of where to dig...

    internode ned kelly -- 26/11/08

    here's what terria member internode strangely announced on the big bid day, today,

    "internode gets telstra ADSL2+ access".

    check it out

    http://apcmag.com/internode_inks_telstra_adsl2_wholesale_deal.htm

    http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/communications/soa/Internode-gets-Telstra-ADSL2-access/0,130061791,339293508,00.htm

    pretty much says it all about terria

    iiNet / Internode = wankers Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117184)

    siding with Optus in G9/Terria has only revealed these ISPs for what they are - OPPORTUNISTIC WANKERS.

    Here netgeeks are exalting Internode and iiNet , and typically bashing Telstra for corporate greed and unethical behavior, the back flip of these ISPs rings home the message that these immature netgeeks should get into their heads.

    iinet and internode have been stringing their loyalty along by playing the marketing game of being geek friendly and 'utopian', in reality they are opportunitistic capitalists, just like everyone else, with no altrustic end for australians, its just reality, at least Telstra is honest about it.

    @ iiNet / Internode = wankers Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117399)

    haha yeah, and isnt AXIA, ACACIA and Terria playing the same hand also?

    @ @ iiNet / Internode = wankers Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117400)

    At least they all propose structural separation. Just because Telstra are honest about wanting to make more money doesn't mean it's a good thing

    @@ @ iiNet / Internode = wankers Anonymous -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117411)

    If iiNet / Internode proposed 'dog poo poo', I'm sure the droves of their supporters would be fans of poo poo. Apart from the simple fact that in reality, for example KFC suggesting that Maccas should hand out free burgers, doesn't mean that Maccas should accept this as good business practice for its shareholders - same for Telstra, of course its competitors want separation, but Telstras not going tohand out freebies.

    @@ @ iiNet / Internode = wankers Anonymous -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117689)

    See this is where you've got it all wrong. Everytime somebody tries to use another industry to give an example of structural separation within telstra, they forget that MACCA'S DOESN'T SUPPLY KFC WITH THEIR FOOD. Give me an example that is accurate and correct. And don't try any of those airlines examples, pretty sure dr phil ran that one into the ground as well

    @ @@ @ iiNet / Internode = wankers Anonymous -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117698)

    "but Telstras not going to hand out freebies."

    I think their profits clearly show they're nowhere near handing out FREEBIES

    @@@@@@@@@@@@@ Anonymous -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117698)

    Thats because both KFC and Macca's have invested equally in their own businesses.

    One doesn't invest little and expect a government department to allow them to sponge off the other.

    Get it now.

    @@@@@@@@@@@@ Anonymous -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117727)

    No, you still don't get it. Let me give you an example that IS appropriate. Saying that every ISP should invest in their own network is like saying every airline should invest in their own airport. It's unrealistic and uneconomical.

    too many bloody analogies Paul -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117730)

    I think your confusing the point by using too many analogies. Agree to disagree.

    Just think, if optus had spent most of their time extending their own network for the last decade or so instead of using Telstras, by now they should have a massive competing network.

    Maybe even a fibre network.

    Fact of the matter is, if your going to use someone elses property, your not going to get to use it as cheaply as they would.

    If you want to buy off a wholesaler, buy off one. If you dont like their terms, then, if you have the cash, you should build your own network and stop using the wholesaler.

    If anyone stopped recently to look at the mobile/wireless market, theyd see that is exactly what has happened.

    With the amount of regulation in place, the other companies are hardly struggling to get by.

    Small companies? I feel for them if the price isnt right, but getting into the business of being a telco isnt a backyard shed deal really, and if your business model doesnt work with the costs involved, its really a pretty crap business model isnt it.

    Here'e the Solution: Anonymous -- 26/11/08

    Introduce legislation to nationalise / takeover Telstra. Split it up, keep the main infrastructure in government hands, give the rest back to Telstra. Then run the show as per BT in the UK.

    @ here's a solution Anonymous -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117186)

    Yep, I think the Telstra shareholders would love that choice. Especially if it came with a fat cheque, which it absolutely must.

    Might look a little silly though, Sell Telstra, Buy back Telstra, Sell Telstra, Buy back Telstra.

    little thing called "the constitution" Paul -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117186)

    The constitution states that any nationalisation of assets must be done with "due and fair compensation" In this case to the tune of many billions of dollars.

    They arent going to do it.

    PSTN valued at 0$ Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117290)

    Telstra itself have valued the pstn at $0 and considered a management buyout in 2006/2007 but no takers. So compensation for nationalising PSTN infrastructure (using Telstra own reporting) could be set at 0$.

    looked at the price of copper recently bob -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117419)

    $0 value is ridiculous. You could dig up the wires and melt it down and still make a hell of a lot of money off it, without taking into account the intelligent network that runs it, the operations centre that runs it and makes sure it all goes together, the customer base that uses it.. equiptment at exchanges, etc etc etc

    lets not be stupid.

    looked you at the price of copper recently ?? Terry -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117433)

    "$0 value is ridiculous. You could dig up the wires and melt it down and still make a hell of a lot of money off it,"

    I'm having trouble finding the AU price but in the US scrap copper is currently going for about US$1.50 per pound, so I'm not really sure if you'd make much money out of it considering the costs involved in digging it up and melting it down.

    Source .. http://scrapmetalpricesandauctions.com/copper/

    roflmao bob -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117472)

    well Terry you've done more research into the copper than I have :P

    I was being a little facetious, but still the rest is valid I believe.

    @roflmao Terry -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117535)

    Nah, I can just remember something on Media Watch earlier this year where there was a hoax email going around saying copper was $100+/kilo and people were turning up at scrap yards on the verge of getting violent because they were barely getting 1% of that.

    Honestly in our country the copper is better off in the ground then pulling it out and melting it down, the money it's worth vs our income isn't worth it compared to other countries where the average income is lower.

    copper is actually pretty valuable... Anonymous -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117539)

    $3504.36 a tonne actually. How many tonnes do you think Telstra has in the ground tezza?

    addition to last post Anonymous -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117861)

    thats US currency too.

    Telstra.. what a joke Charles -- 26/11/08

    The problem with Telstra is that over the years they have gained the mentality that they are above the law and can do whatever they like. If they don't build the NBN, they will have to play in the real world for a change. This absolutely scares the **** out of them because they have no idea how to do it.

    ^^^ Anonymous -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117205)

    Above the law perhaps, but Optus, Axia, Acacia seem believe that the laws of physics, economics or reality - do not apply to them, hence their rather 'unrealistic' bids, and their insistence begins to sound very tongue-cheek, much like Conroy's 'tender'.

    Telstra bid is non-compliant Anonymous -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117205)

    A lot of froth and bubbles here. The Telstra bid is non-compliant, meaning it doesn't meet the Terms and Conditions of the RFP.

    It WILL be thrown out by the evaluation panel, as it legally must. If it isn't, and Telstra get the gig, then the other bid proponents will rightly go to court, and win, then we'll be back to square one.

    Pretence's coming to an end. Anonymous -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117233)

    I think you will find your mistaken.

    Minchin will get mileage suggesting the govt cant even consider the bid. And that others should sue if the Govt does.

    But the govt. already said it would consider the bid.

    Now the panel has a very very easy and quick reference to bench mark any other bids.
    Let alone the fact the govt cannot provide Telstra as anchor Tenant nor prevent it from competing against the NBN to make viable all other bids.

    It's the other bids that are non starter's. And I think you will find the Govt and Telstra will happily go to court if need be.

    The Govt got the competitive tension it wanted!

    Don't think so, unfortunately Dan Warne -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117233)

    As much as I'd like that to be the case, I think Conroy specifically structured it as a "request for proposals", not a formal tender process, so that non-compliant bids could be made. I'm sure Telstra would have been fully aware of the legal technicalities of submitting a non-compliant bid. If it meant Telstra would be forever ruled out of the race, I truly doubt the board would have done it.

    All Other Bids Anonymous -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117233)

    I think all non-Telstra bids can be considered 'non-compliant'. Ie. non-compliant of Australian Law.

    I would expect, if the world has gone crazy, and Telstra or no-one is awarded the win, that there would be long and costly court battles ahead over property and ownership rights and compensation

    @ All Other Bids Anonymous -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117690)

    I'm going to put my imaginary blog comment money on the opposite of what you said and say that if Telstra doesn't win, instead of taking them to court, they'll just accept the money that the NBN builder is going to offer them. Going to court isn't going to win anything for anyone, also that's what every other incumbent has done

    Help Terria and David their delusion is ending. Anonymous -- 27/11/08

    David,

    All can say is your a ****
    Terria did not bid. lets say that again.
    Terria did not bid ! Remember what we all knew and clearly stated. Terria is a hollow pretence.
    And now that its proven your still in denial !! Delusional ****

    As for Telstra - smart and fair.

    Smart - our info is not going to be used by our competitors to help destroy us. Cant or wont meet our minimum term, no seperation, then feel free to go with any other bid you think floats, (good luck).
    And we will proceed as any company should and would and prepare to compete hell for leather. We will not be an Anchor Tenant, We WILL COMPETE FOR CUSTOMERS.

    Fair - We will take the $4.7 bill as a loan, the govt will get it all back ! and make a return !
    We will use it to run fibre to the bush. And as a 100% loan,the money is good for 80% -90% of pop. we openly advise.
    We acknowledge open access to be policed by the ACCC.
    NO MONOPOLY REQUESTED. Optus, here's a novel idea, feel free to use your dusty cable or roll out fibre in competition !

    Terria / Optus / David - Thanks for the laughs you self serving morons.

    Not necessarily counting on govt to make the right decision but their is only 1 REAL choice.

    Thank the ACCC and Optus for that, who have ensured Optus is fat and lazy. And does NOT want to COMPETE.

    TTT Anonymous -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117219)

    So TELSTRA is always right, 200 meg is enough for everyone? Screw the customer?

    200mb Anonymous -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117248)

    actually thats for people that only want to do online banking and a tiny bit of browsing. Otherwise you dont be a cheapskate and you pay for the higher plans.

    Also, im not sure if your an idiot or what, but if theres complete open access, wouldnt competitors be able to charge however much they like? I thought the $29.95 applied to telstras RETAIL customers? moron.

    @200mb Babe1 -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117257)

    Telstra wholsaled the ADSL1 and budget providers like dodo,tpg were able to offer 8mbps services comparable to ISP ULL plans.

    Personally I chose an 8mbps 50GB dodo plan over the ISP's ULL plan because the latter had too many conditions and bundling, so infact the TW via retail ISP was a better choice and value for me over ULL.

    Moral of this story is that most ISPs even with their own DSLAMS are not as competitive as TW, as ISPs simply keep the margins made rather than passing it to consumers (eg. iinet , internode), what you get is better speed which isnt really essential compared to 8Mbps or with copper length.

    I am a fan of TPG's 150GB plan, or primus 200GB, but LOL, look at the catch, 3am-9am off peak, get real, so remove that and their ULL/SSS plans look comparable to TW plans on 8Mbps.

    TW ADSL2+ awaits to be seen. But between 8M and 16-20Mbps for most users and for current net offering does not make much difference to most people. There is a slight price saving, but overall the difference is exaggerated by Telstra/Bigpond haters.

    @Help Terria and David their delusion is ending. Akira Doe -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117219)

    Fantastic idea... lets overbuild and duplicate networks unnecessarily.

    We can't avoid a monopoly in this debate. What we need to avoid is that monopoly used to drain every last penny out of the consumers, that being retail providers of the service or even directly the Australian Public.

    Can we trust Telstra not to do that?

    Un-#@$!ing likely if history has shown us anything.

    The only "****" here is you Mr/Ms. Anonymous.

    optus shareholder Anonymous -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117252)

    above you said you are a telstra shareholder, i think you meant optus shareholder, as you're doing your best to talk your savings down.

    @optus shareholder Akira Doe -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117302)

    It is true that what I'm talking about isn't going to do me any favours for my shares, but after buying during T2 they're already worth a lot less than they were when purchased, so instead of having useless shares and a useless NBN, I'm siding with the competition so I can at least have one ray of sunshine in this whole debacle, and that will be a proper NBN, not a Telstra NBN.

    It might sound to you like I am an Optus share holder, but after getting my Telstra shares, seeing Sol take control and then have comments made about not selling shares to their mother (or grandmother, I can't remember) which murdered the share price, add that to the worse than Poor service I've received over the years on a personal and business level from Telstra (via office relocations where they didn't follow the agreed plan and cut all the phone lines (24 x ISDN for phone and 3 copper lines for ADSL2+, Fax and Security system) a week early, on a Friday afternoon meaning it was the following Wednesday before it was resolved, AND them totally cocking up when I tried to bundle my home phone, mobile and broadband with them, not only on the install (line went to the wrong address, which took 2 weeks to get them to admit the mistake then install to MY house) then billing errors not giving me the bundling discount that again went on for weeks, which in the end I never got the credit owed for the extra I had to pay for the first 2 months before I left them (both for my personal services, and now my business), yes I might come across as anti Telstra, but its totally bloody justified...

    I'd offload the shares in an instant if I could, but sadly they're worth so little its better keeping them for the dividend for the time being.

    Maybe I can give them away as a gag birthday present a few years down the track...

    They can't manage their incompetence as it is, there is no way I want them a part of our future infrastructure, especially as the sole operator of a band new monopoly all over again!!

    So please, before you blindly follow the Telstra tune, try using their "Premium Service" for the "Premium" price you'll pay and see how happy you are.

    /end rant

    @@optus Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117329)

    ah, i see.

    some telstra shareholders come here with hope and blindly talk telstra up come what may, so their shares may one day again be worth something.

    you however, have obviously given up on your shares because you bought T2, at what $7.40, now trading at $4. But surely you've bought more since to average down?

    so obviously, you are, and will remain bitter against telstra because of losing so much money. you are simply the opposite to rest. they are worried about future profits *to their hip pockets* whereas you are bitter about the past losses *from your hip pocket*.

    in the end, either way, it all boils down to personal selfishness, not who is best, or what is best for everyone, doesn't it!

    @@@optus Akira Doe -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117369)

    Yes and No.

    From a customer point of view they've been nothing but trouble, which I'm sure can't be the norm for them, but so much trouble with every service I've tried to use with them and a poor response when the issue was clearly identified as theirs... The only way I was able to speed up the connection of my home phone line after they connected it to the wrong house, even after going through complaints, was to contact a friend who works(ed - not from February onwards, unless he moves to the Phills) for a company outsourced by Telstra for their support to look into it for me. Unacceptable.

    Share losses aside, my experience as a Telstra customer for both personal and a medium size business (but we were on premium business plans with our own accounts manager etc.) plus their behaviour and action with their current networks and the "ransom" like tactics towards the Government, that's enough to destroy any confidence I have in Telstra.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the tender should go to Optus, Acacia or Axia for that very reason, what I am saying is it shouldn't go to Telstra just because they're Telstra.

    They have to keep their shareholders in mind, they're a public company, that can't be avoided, but a lot of their shareholders are the Australian public, the very people they are "proposing" to bleed dry and one could almost say rip off with their joke of a "non-bid".

    I like the idea of the network being build by a company separate from the retail arm. At best it the NBN wholesaler shouldn't even sell directly to customers. We know if Telstra get the bid they will sell to customers, which means just like their ADSL networks they get to set the wholesale price to justify their inflated retail price which puts as back to square one, but with the minimum speeds being 4 times faster than it is now. An unaccepted outcome for our future.

    @@@@optus Terry -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117386)

    "Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the tender should go to Optus, Acacia or Axia for that very reason, what I am saying is it shouldn't go to Telstra just because they're Telstra."

    Well said, that's it in a nutshell, the fund should go to the bidder(s) who best meet the criteria. No bidder should be above another no matter who they are, and it's what they brought to the table that should decide who wins.

    ISDN bob -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117329)

    And I suppose the other providers would all have jumped with joy at the option of being the one to offer you a professional ISDN service. Roflmao.

    neither is telstra.. joe -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117434)

    bob, Telstra's discontinuing ISDN, so no1's jumping for joy... and Akira, as telstra staff, I have to apologise... not on behalf of telstra though, you are spot on when you say they dont care, just for the majority of staff here, we do try, but the tech booking times are horrible, half are contractors who arent trained, and a decent amount of telstra's own techs are so dissilusioned they dont care... I honestly dont know how this company keeps going, The mood in these call centres is so toxic there having to hire outside councilling to come in (EAP program) and help... I sincerly hope that when telstra loses its monopoly, the people its stepping on to make profit move aside and let it fall

    telstra = profit... but not for the people. Anonymous -- 27/11/08

    i can't believe anyone would seriously think that the non-telstra bidders would not be able to do this.

    they are huge companies, and would be screwing themselves into oblivion to take on a project like this if they weren't prepared to do it properly.

    retail / wholesale separation is the only way for a network like this to work.... if Telstra won't play that ball..... then unfortunately, they can't be involved. It's that simple.

    dont be stupid Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117275)

    Think about this, can you build a major corporation overnight? Can you build a BHP, a QANTAS, or Maquarie Bank in a few months? or a few dollars?

    How do you expect thse 'stupid' proposals like AXIA and ACACIA or OPTUS expect to get off the ground in 1 years time and with no budget for company building to satisfy the governments requirments and build a network that works?

    Before you can even build anything you need to have a corporate structure designed to build and run a major network, which will be the infrastructure provider, do you think the RTA, VicRoads, Dept of Education etc can be built in 1 year? How much will it cost?

    So, do you think these companies can build something like Telstra in a year? Bullsh*t, which is what they proposals look like.

    its working now? Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117275)

    Hi anon...

    Retail/Wholesale seperation is the only option?

    Hate to say it, but like it or not, the current system works, its just old crap technology.

    Telstra are already internally seperated into retail and wholesale, with no communication allowed between the two for competition purposes.

    Seperating further is just an attempt to destroy the company. I can understand why some people want that to happen, but I'd be more inclined to believe its due to petty vengeance over imagined slights than any real reason.

    Is Gud! Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117435)

    The splitting of Telstra would do one thing immediately. It would end the reign of Sol Trujillo. He would uproot & fly home & get paid his millions in arrears anyway. Good riddance. That would have to be reason enough.

    Oh, the reason Sol would leave is because he Telstra would no longer have control of the infrastructure.

    @is gud? Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117491)

    hey ***khead, most prophetic, where would this debate be without such input. rofl. what a ***khead.

    tell us some more uncle ***khead, we all love a good laugh - at you. hahahahahaha

    Not sure if thats right? joe -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117435)

    "no communication allowed between the two for competition purposes"...
    I talk to wholesale all the time, and they talk to us... if its meant to be against the law, telstras certainly not stopping us

    joe bob -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117511)

    if your in the same building as wholesale, they will have a completely seperate cordoned off area with seperate security passes that you cant access.

    You'll never attend the same briefings as a telstra wholesale team, or be able to mingle with them on the floor except at a christmas party.

    If your calling through for legitimate reasons, then thats fine.

    You arent however, by law, allowed to access wholesale information for the benefit of Telstra (when of course that information pertains to another carrier)

    If your doing it outside those boundaries, them in sure someone at Telstra, that is, if its actually Telstra and not an outsourced partner, would certainly reprimand you severely for it given the severity of the repercussions to the company.

    @bob joe -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117536)

    nagh not in the same building, but if a cust is using telstra lines they pop up in a myriad of systems, flexcab, axis, siamm, all very happily tell me cust details (i dont even have to do a datagather, so its not as if i have a choice of whether i see them or not) and we have received oh so much plenty of training on how to 'win back' customers, and we get finicial reward for it to (Op knocks), so, take money hungry workers, give them a heap of training on how to influence customers back to tesltra, then have big obvious NODS telling you as soon as a cust drops in, then pay the workers bonuses when they bring the cust back to tesltra... its a very thin line if you ask me bob

    @ joe Anonymous -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117783)

    Wow - pretty sure that's exactly what is NOT meant to happen.

    lol, as i said, thin line joe -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117784)

    well, tesltras not saying that we must convert the customer back to us, they just provide us with the training, and fincial reward if we so happen to somehow manage to convert a cust back to telstra and let us know if the cust is with another serv provider as well, so technically telstras not officially converting customers back... but they are facilitating it, I personally dont do it as i think its insulting to the cust that they ring up with a fault and telstra expects us to cram as many different products as possible down their throats

    re Joe Anonymous -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117796)

    Hang on are you saying that they let you know customers details that belong to other ISP's??

    umm, yeah? joe -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117802)

    yeah, as long as its an actual telstra line, not say like a wholly owned and operated optus line, i can tell you name, auth reps, address, telstra equiavlent plan, last time where with telstra, previous addresses numbers been at, i can tell you the exact same things i could if u where telstra, though when asked by customer its always 'sorry i cant see any details at all about this number, please call your serv provider'

    lol, wait ^^^correction joe -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117805)

    i just re-read, u said ISP's, i honestly have no idea about, say iinet dslams, im fairly sure, wholesale'd dslams can though, but dont quote me on that, (I only deal with actual phone lines) lol so as for the correction, everything i said above refers to home phone lines, no idea when it comes to ADSL

    re joe Anonymous -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117805)

    ... Isn't that illegal??

    lol joe -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117807)

    dont ask me, I'm smart enough not to take it up with my boss the possible not so legal things telstra does,

    i spose people might be able to see why i dont trust telstra

    of course its illegal, thats why your not allowed to use it Anonymous -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117811)

    Look. Theres about twenty different training packs that your meant to be taken through when you start up with Telstra. Part of that education tells you it is strictly forbidden to use any information shown about another provider to Telstras advantage.

    For instance. If you can see by the technical codes on the line (which it used to be necessary to display for wholesales use, and is no longer available under new Telstra systems.) that the user has wholesale ADSL, your not allowed to say to them "I can see you have broadband with another provider"

    If your a sales person, you might ask them if they have it, but since thats whats expected of you, as a sales person with ANY customer not using Telstra, your not using anything on your screen that refers to another provider.

    You're expected to ask questions of people and find out like that. If you do otherwise, and it was seen you were using that information to your advantage, youd be fired and fair enough. Simple as that. Breaking the law.

    You cant see any details of jack about anything thats on another providers systems.

    You cant see anything except for when they have left Telstra, which is necessary for billing.

    You cant see where they went, you can't see who theyre with, you cant see their bills, what they pay, or ANYTHING relevant.

    You can see old Telstra company records, and your only allowed to use them with the relevant people, ie, the account holder who has the right to use it. That goes for searching numbers, records, anything.

    To say that wholesale information is strewn everywhere is a load of crap joe. Im pretty pissed that youd misrepresent the company I work for in such a way to try and prove your own point.

    Im posting this anonymously, simply because im not sure if anything I have posted comes under our non disclosure agreement.

    I've got to ask Joe. Are you actually a Telstra worker or working for an industry partner?

    no way Anonymous -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117863)

    he's obviously not a telstra employee but if by chance he actually is, he shouldn't be.

    sure am anon joe -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320117863)

    telstra worker, and new systems?? only siebil for sales, faults... were still on siamm, and btw if you read, never said it tells me which serv provider your with, but it tells me you are with someone else, and siamm still shows cable details, address, local exchange, line programming ADSL codes, any faults there carriers put in on their behalf, outages, everything i can see for telstra custs...Op Knocks provides the incentive to churn the customer, and yes, i agree something like 20+ training packs, 1 of them is for Oppurtunity Knocks, which trains us in key words to look for, and ways to have the customer come over to telstra and key points we should mention about them coming over to telstra,

    tell you what anon, if your worried about been identified give me a D number of someone sitting next to you or something and I'll dbabble them to say hi?

    Relax its just politics Anonymous -- 27/11/08

    Just take the emotion out of it for a minute and consider the process.

    Telstra's initial NBN plan was a ruse to stall ULL based DSL investment by competitors which had savaged incumbents in Europe. Understandable, these guys get payed on financial performance and will do what they can to protect shareholder value.

    Terria was a ruse (From Optus & others) to counter Telstraâ??s proposed NBN (monopoly) by ensuring it would deliver open access at reasonable access prices and not destroy existing ULL based investment in Australia. Fair enough - these guys have been struggling for funding due to uncertainty in this area resulting in reduced genuine broadband competition and innovation for Australia.

    This new proposal by Telstra seems to be a white flag designed to give the government its election promise (even if it falls short of the coverage mark) and appease Terra.

    Make no mistake, the only reason Telstra is offering any concessions at all is Terriaâ??s pressure and the governmentâ??s separation threat.

    The European separation model is manifesting itself pretty close to home (NZ) and Telstra is extremely fearful of this outcome.

    In the end the government is responding to the peoples demand and Australia's national interest. They will need to put this ahead of any corporate interests.

    Say bye bye copper Another telstra shareholder -- 27/11/08

    As per other comments about the last mile of copper i'd love to see the copper taken back by the government, seeing as its proved true to have been stupid to think telstra would not prove to be the greedy buggers they are.

    @say bye bye Anonymous -- 27/11/08 (in reply to #320117297)

    this just shows how immature and foolish you are. i bet you are complaining about government intervention in regards to net filtering and saying how dare they (as am i). but on the other hand encouraging the government to act even more heavy handily, simply because you dislike telstra.

    if the government were successful in confiscating a huge corp. like telstras property, where does that leave you and i.

    filtering woul;d be ***k all, they could take what they want, your house, mine. unlikely i know, but give the ***tards an inch.

    dangerous proposal and no i'm not a telstra shareholder.

    immature and foolish Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117326)

    With the sanguine artistry of a pig in muddy filth comes yet another pointless comment from the cowardly guttersnipe.

    @immature Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117492)

    my you are even more biased against telstra than sydney is for telstra, aren't you ***khead?

    we'll have your house first then ***khead.

    Shareholders own copper nah nah nah!!! Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117297)

    I am a Telstra shareholder......I think DrPhil and Sol have done a great job. If anything this current debate will stop the bludge/sponge off Telstra rort thhat went on under Howard/Coonan.

    Conroy/Krudd do not repeat the mistake of Howard/Coonan and allow Telstra to be "milked" by Singtel/OPTUS!!!

    dear shareholder joe -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117546)

    as any one of the various reports you may or may not have point out, telstra wholesale makes ample profit, some what like %20 of overall profit, so sure, by all means, stop wholesale, its not as if your shares arent used to the drop...

    $6.2 billion for Car Industry, $4.7b for NBN Anonymous -- 28/11/08

    Brilliant! It just goes to show that the government does have the money. But not the brains to go with it.

    Of course, there are no car factories in NSW, QLD, WA, NT, ACT or Tasmania, but who cares? Making low-tech cars in VIC and SA makes Kevin Rudd feel good!

    ACACIA's NBN bid plans to build Fiber to the Home in some places, which bypass Telstra's exchanges completely...ACACIA also doesnt need the crazy profits that Telstra needs or the normal profits that Optus needs.

    For the Telstra exchanges that ACACIA doesn't bypass, the government should either buy the exchanges back from Telstra or build new ones. Problem Solved.

    @6.2 Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117359)

    buy them problem solved.

    you are a complete ***king idiot.

    Anonymouse Strikes Again Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117440)

    What genius! What prophetic wisdom! What stunning creativity of the English language!

    What a pointless buffoon!

    @ananymous Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117494)

    that makes two of us then ***khead, for you too are a pointless buffoon.

    Foulmouth Anonymous Anonymous -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117542)

    Who is this Anon that loves the term ***khead?? Take out all the swearing and insults and I'm not sure there's a comment left worth posting...

    Foulmouth Anonymous **** -- 13/12/08 (in reply to #320117606)

    That why he remains anonymous. I think he should post his name as commentless !

    BS won't baffle brains. Sydney Lawrence -- 28/11/08

    12 pages of fact outshines1000 pages of BS.

    Telstra Pay Receiver and Shareholder Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117385)

    Just another Sydney slay them in the aisles with rhetoric designed to confuse rather than illuminate. Well done Sydney, your commentary is as wise as ...say, the Telstra board perhaps?

    rex and syd = twins Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117493)

    go and have a look in the mirror ***khead.

    i assure you you will see a sydney look alike, but wearing an optus hat, not telstra hat, staring back, with a stupid blank, ***khead look on his face! haha

    Terria Tel the Truth Optus and Terria -- 28/11/08

    Please - Terria was all talk and talk and optus only stated that they'll only folk out 1 billion dollars of their own.

    Telstra has only got to the point and got on with the work cause they know how to run such a large project

    Optus is all talk cause ever since Singtel bought them out they HAVE NEVER INVESTED in ANY NETWORK and has no customer service compared to Telstra

    OK DEN DICK SMITH -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117397)

    Customer service?? TELSTRA?
    shouldnt be mentioned in the same sentence, Nike Sweat Shops in Culcutta have better Service

    WHO CARES Harvz -- 28/11/08

    I HOPE TELSTRA BLOWS UP...
    ALL THOSE WHO AGREE SAY... EYE

    @who Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117408)

    id prefer you to blow up you ***king idiot!

    A-hole Strikes Again Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117439)

    A stroke of sheer literary genius comes from the little piggy.

    @rex Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117495)

    oh hello ***khead.

    see you can dish it but not take it, never mind diddums.

    Come on guys ned kelly -- 30/11/08 (in reply to #320117521)

    I do not condone your *** and as Rex Alfie Lee puts it, guttersnipes Anonymous, infact I find them rather low.

    But i do find it intruiging that Mr Lee takes exception to your colorful comments and ignores the ones which you are simply replying to.

    For example one person says Telstra should be blown up and I guess you are sarcastically replying to such a stupid comment, somewhat tongue in cheek, by saying youd prefer them to be blown up.

    Perhaps i'm lowering my standards by becoming involved in such childish arguments, but, surely all these comments are ridiculous and Mr Lee, by harassing Anonymous but letting the original silly comment maker get away with it, your comments are demonstrating your terrible one sided views.

    If anything, Anonymous is lowering the standards here and Mr Lee, you are simply denegrating the entire process even further.

    Come on guys!

    What a joke Anonymous -- 28/11/08

    Not too many in the westernised world cares much about what goes on in Australia - but you have managed to put yourselves on the world map for being one of the most underdeveloped IT-nations among industrial countries. Telstra has a big stake in this. Nice work...

    The buck stops with Trejillo Anonymous -- 28/11/08

    The pathetic corporate response to Federal broadband policy and the tender to put the network into place signals a major malaise at Telstra. And the bucks [$13m?] stop at Trujillo's desk.

    It's time that this clown and his bunch of Southern buddies got their marching orders.

    Sol should take his quaint New Mexico business ideology back home. He's never understood that Telstra was built with public money, has a public mandate to fill, and is not a cash cow for executives with bloated pay packets and limited perspectives on what national infrastructure means in our country.

    pathetic racists Bob -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117424)

    Can one of you morons try to have a go at Sol without bringing his bloody nationality into it?

    I mean fine, have a stab if you must but at least use some brains to work out your insults instead of meaningless anti american crap.

    Your pathetic "southern buddies" "New Mexico Busines Ideology" comments, show exactly how ill educated and stupid you actually are.

    At least you had the shame to make yourself anonymous so that noone can single you out as the biggot you are.

    Like or dislike policies, whatever, dont turn it into a fricken racists debate.

    We dont give a rats arse if you dont like americans, we just want to talk about the NBN.

    excuse the rant but im sick of the bloody xenophobic crap that emanates from a lot of anonymous posters on here, with no basis in reality whatsoever.

    Also, educate yourself a little. If the government builds lets say for example, the MCG, so that alllll melbournites can enjoy sport, and it then sells that to someone else who wants to use it as well, whatever they want.. they have that right, because it was SOLD.

    The original purpose of whatever, once its sold to people who have never claimed to be a charity, is obviously irrelevant.

    Spot on, Bob Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117437)

    Completely right bob, it really bugs me when people bring someone's race into any conversation when it's completely irrelevant to the story. Sadly I see and hear it happen a lot.

    Not Aussies. Sydney Lawrence -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117438)

    Right on Bob these red neck, ocker scum bag ****heads should grow up. Bet their parents wish they were half the man Sol is.

    Hypocrite Mel Sommersberg -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117448)

    I'll be man enough to say that I don't like the septics running Telstra. It's not racist though, it is patriotic, a bit like Sydney Lawrence and his patriotic affirmness for Telstra having a larger Australian shareholding than Optus, which he is continually branding as 100% Asian-owned, which it isn't.

    Isn't that right Sydney?

    @Sydney Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117448)

    Hang on a sec!

    How many times have we seen you and your NWAT mates draw attention to the fact that Optus is part-owned by Singtel, a foreign investor, and drawn upon the nationalistic rehetoric of "...how good are we Aussies?"

    You cannot have it both ways mate, being True Blue you'd know that, right mate?

    You pick on the Asians who have deep pockets and very long arms, but 'conveniently' overlook the fact there are other non-Ausssies administering the organisation you so dearly love.

    Accept everyone within this industry mate, regardless, or you are the (ockker) biggot!

    PS: Before you even start - I have NO commercial interestes in either Optus or Telstra...

    Half the man Reggie "The King" Crooner -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320117448)

    I'd like to be half the man Sol is... At least i'd be filthy rich

    @pathetic racists Terry -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117437)

    "Can one of you morons try to have a go at Sol without bringing his bloody nationality into it? "

    Of course no one at Telstra would ever dare to mention anything bad about Optus's parent company SingTel, would they. Oh hang on, what's this..

    "TELSTRA has warned John Howard not to "confiscate" the national broadband network proposal from mum-and-dad investors and hand it to Singapore, a country that executes its citizens."
    http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,21883325-15306,00.html

    Anti-American - Me? Oh shock horror! Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117473)

    The fact is that I am sick of corporate businesses in Australia being run with an American theme. We aren't Americans & lets face it, they pay a lot less than we do for the crappy service we receive here.

    I want an Australian head on an Australian company. Not that Switkowsky was any better than Trujillo but at least he didn't reduce Telstra to the poorest treated personnel that Telstra has ever endured. It was once a great company, now it is a shrivelled weasel reflecting Johnnie Howard in all his glory.

    Wel done Sol, now go home.

    @anti Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117497)

    you are sick of americans and we are sick of you ***khead

    @pathetic Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117473)

    no, you don't take sides terry, you jut want separate wholesale retail, pffft!

    you are just another sydney in reverse.

    am I telstra? Bob -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117473)

    Im not Telstra. Im Bob. And I don't like racism from any quarter. Its wrong to try to use xenophobia to your advantage in any situation.

    If you have a problem with that, then I'm going to claim the moral highground and say "your wrong"

    Im sure you've heard the phrase "Two wrongs don't make a right", its something that our parents all used to say to us, and it still stands true today.

    If someone comes up to me and calls me a $@#$@n australian, then im not going to turn back to them and say well @$@N off you stupid asian/greek/indian, im going to shun them like the sad attempts at humanity they are.

    Especially sad in THIS country, which is made up of just about EVERY race in reasonable proportions.

    If people could get over their whole "they came from here" attitude, then itd be a lot better to read these forums.

    Static on the lines? David Braue -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117537)

    A massive number of the posts in this forum seem to have been obliterated with punctuation marks -- *** and @ signs. Is this perhaps a new Windows bug, or perhaps you are early victims of Conroy's new filters?

    Take a deep breath, everybody!

    I might suggest it doesn't matter what nationality the people running these companies is -- what matters is the policies they set in place and the effect it has on the competitive environment. I am sure Sol would only want and expect to be judged on his performance, and no matter how you feel about that performance he should be given that respect. Surely we can all have an educated and vigorous discussion on the issues without resorting to racist or offensive potshots.

    By the way, Trujillo's first senior executive position was at a telco in the US state of New Mexico -- I for one presumed this is what the "New Mexico business ideology" comment referred to, rather than casting any aspersions on his race or nationality, which are immaterial.

    Cheers David Bob -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117624)

    Hi David, thanks for the validation. I think your second paragraph hits the nail on the head wonderfully.

    I'll also take note of the third paragraph, and I apologise if the comment was made in that light.

    Just sick of it!!! We're here to discuss Comms and IT, and nationality has no relevance!

    Thanks mate.

    @Bob Anonymous -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117437)

    New Mexico is in the states. I don't see any reference to race... but some to ideology.

    I don't see that a topic area that's out of bounds.

    Re: Telstra does not care for Australia one bit! RB -- 28/11/08

    Direct quote from Donald McGauchie (Telstra chairman):

    "The entry price [referring to the $29.95 per month entry level 1Mbps retail broadband pricing plan] includes a telephone line, basic access and then a basic access to a broadband capacity."

    How much do you currently pay for line rental?

    The only reason why this plan exists is to offer a cheap entry-level broadband package for those who aren't interested in speed/high capacity.

    Maybe Telstra cares a little more than perceived.

    I love a sunburnt country. Sydney Lawrence -- 28/11/08

    Mel I am not being racist when I say I will always back an Australian company against foreigners. Just patriotic as most Australians are. Mel with respect you are not consistent, why don't you attack other (of whom there are many) who are not Australians and CEO's who run Australian companies. To be anti any race is racism Mel.

    I am certainly not against Singapore, I visit every year for holidays, but I am pro Australian.

    surnbernt wtf Anonymous -- 28/11/08 (in reply to #320117461)

    sydnay i cunnot beleve you can say that when ther r so meny rasists hoo liv arund you.

    i played futball against ur local teem for meny yeers and evry time they call me bad names like n*ggar and koon and stuff.

    u speek of baking an australian but u do not include us the originals. ur area of our town is the worst for rasial dicsrimination but you do not seam to understand that.

    pleese take a look outside ur own back door b4 pointing the finger at others.

    Tell All Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117469)

    Why is he so partial to Telstra. Tell all, please?

    He says he's a true-blue Ozzie but loves Telstra who screws everybody. What is he on? Drugs I mean. Can I have some?

    @tell all Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117499)

    why are you so partial against telstra.

    can you have some and what, be even stupider, i think not.

    Clarification Mel Sommersberg -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320117461)

    Sydney you always place this emphasis on Australian ownership and for many reasons I agree. I, probably more than most, would like to see a day when Australia once again has dozens of locally owned companies participating in secondary industries and doing well.

    Globalisation is getting in the road though so what can one man do about it?

    Regarding foreign CEOs running Australian companies - I think we have enough local talent to appoint Australian citizens to all positions however the reason I keep drawing attention to Sol is because it is relevant to the discussions here. None of these threads are about banks, supermarkets or picture theatres. ZDNet is an IT-related website and Internet service providers are what gets written about here more often than anything else. Telstra gets more than their fair share of coverage and if you don't like it then talk to ZDNet, they provide the content, not the visitors.

    How difficult is it? Anonymous -- 28/11/08

    Clearly Tel$tra failed to lodge a valid bid under the guidelines in the first place, so why should ANYONE entertain any further dialogue from them on this issue?

    If any where else you lodge an inappropriate document (ie: job application, university enrolment form, etc.) your application gets REJECTED, right!?

    Senator Conroy, please FFS have the backbone and intestinal fortitude to reject this 'non-bid' out-of-hand and assess the VALID propsals of those other organisations and consortiums also involved who were prepared to and took the time to adhere to the submission guidelines in the first place!

    You will most certainly command more respect from the electorate should you do so!

    Must have two! Sydney Lawrence -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117464)

    See this is the imbecilic uninformed lying stupid comment that Telstra has to put up with. The Honourable Senator Conroy, Minister of the Crown has said that the Telstra Proposal IS acceptable and will be considered by the expert panel. Lets stick to facts please.

    Sydley, Such Vehemence Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117496)

    After such a frothy outburst from Sydley I feel it only fair that a little comeuppance is in order. Therefore Sydley I will refer to you as Sydley until such time I feel that your vehemence has been duly recompensed. Telstra's offer is only being considered & may yet be disqualified.

    also joe -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117500)

    I believe Senator Conroy said, that he will leave it to the panel to decide whether the proposal meets all the criteria... in the same sentence i believe he also said that the government wont be changing any criteria...

    sorry Syd, I believe you mis-interpruted conroys Side Step as a tango with telstra

    grow up Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117500)

    After such a frothy outburst from Rex I feel it only fair that a little comeuppance is in order. Therefore Rex I will refer to you as ***khead until such time I feel that your vehemence has been duly recompensed.

    grow up ***khead, sydney may be tarred with the telstra brush, but some of you above, have obviously been tarred with the same anything but telstra brush.

    He didn't say it was acceptable David Braue -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117496)

    He said it would be considered by the panel.

    It would be highly inappropriate for Conroy to interfere in the process by singling out any of the bids for any reason whatsoever. This would constitute personal interference in due process and would not only force nullification of the NBN process but would probably expose Conroy to legal action by Telstra. This is why he is so cagey whenever he is asked by people pressuring him to say the Telstra bid is unacceptable.

    As far as the NBN goes, Conroy is just a figurehead, a messenger. His job is to receive the bids and give them to the panel, nothing more, nothing less. If Telstra had missed the deadline, he could say its submission was unacceptable and get rid of it -- otherwise, his only responsibility is to refer the bids for assessment.

    That doesn't mean Telstra will win the bid, or even that it will be in with a chance. The expert panel will assess each proposal against the RFP's requirements, as per its terms of reference. And, unless the panel can get Conroy to submit to Telstra's demands to rule out separation, they will not have access to Telstra's full proposal as promised (which could, in theory, be disqualified as it was not made before the bid deadline). Judged by the expert panel on the details we have so far, the Telstra proposition would seem to fall well short of the RFP's guidelines -- so should be rejected out of hand by the expert panel.

    Just because Conroy won't rule out Telstra's proposal doesn't mean he is considering it.

    Everyone should realise that this is no longer Conroy's decision; he has little obligation right now except to handle media interviews and keep the expert panel fed and watered while they do their bit.

    Optus Can Do This Rex Alfie Lee -- 29/11/08

    The truth is Optus can do this but lets face it, who would want to? Our NBN would work a lot better if it were a shared network, owned by none, used by all. That won't happen but if Telstra gets split & the infrastructure returned to the Gov't then a fair an equitable system may actuually occur.

    Telstra has proven itself many, many times to be the devil spawn when it comes to providing services. Give them little, charge them lots, we're the monopoly, they can scream & go to hell. Telstra's motto, according to yours truly.

    I don't believe we need FTTN for every household & I don't believe we can afford that. Many businesses may but for the general user I see no reason to waste the money on the last mile when it can be done successfully using wireless of whatever kind happens to end up best.

    It needs to be a co-operative with competitors facing off against eachother as in Virgin & Jetstar.

    Telstra has proven itself to be a lost cause & Optus has never proven themselves. There are other companies embedded in Australia's telecommunications & includes the likes of Vodaphone who apparently have proven themselves. I've never used them so I don't know for sure. With a minimum of 3-faced competitive environment using the resources controlled by the Gov't we have a chance at successfully servicing Australia in an appropriate manner towards a desired future. Without it we will get diddly-squat or exactly what we get from the Big T right now.

    Terria where did you go? Sydney Lawrence -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117502)

    Rex Alfie Lee, it is said that there is a fine line between genius etc and at times you do show glimpses of genius but your statement "if Telstra is split and the infrastructure returned to the Government" leans a little to the other side.

    Telstra owners paid sixty billion dollars for this infrastructure and you want it "taken back". Rexy (if I may be so bold) please stick to the genius side and forget the hallucinations.

    Focus on the hard cold fact of where is the money coming from to finance the NBN. Telstra has told us, now it is time for the others to reveal all. Australian taxpayers don't want to be left holding the baby with sub prime NBN builders.

    Someone else had money and power to... joe -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117505)

    He also wanted to take over most of the known world, eliminate certain ethnicities, acted like a petulant child when not getting his way.... parralles an be drawn to telstra here i believe...

    Syd, just because the rich man has money, doesnt mean we should let him screw us over..

    @someone Anonymous -- 30/11/08 (in reply to #320117508)

    yes most melodramatic joe. haha

    @terria Anonymous -- 29/11/08 (in reply to #320117505)

    i disagree sydney.

    rex (***khead) is indeed the biggest ***khead ever to frequent these discussions.

    Sydney - life and times SJT -- 30/11/08

    Hello David,

    As someone who used to frequent these forums but no longer does, but to read and laugh, I have a suggestion.

    Firstly though, congrats on this article. 150+ comments and counting, must be a record David - yahoo!!

    But instead of wasting your time on writing about comms, Telstra, Optus the NBN or all those other "pointless and meaningless" side issues no one is really intersted in, why don't you write a story about the most pressing issue in Australian Comms - SYDNEY LAWRENCE - lol.

    As time has gone on, myself, James Bell, Jason Torrento, Carlos, Lord Watchdog, etc etc have all come and gone. But whether you love him or hate him, the one "rock" is still here - Sydney Lawrence.

    The funny part about it all is, no matter what the topic is, whether it be "Telstra pack your bags", "Optus outages normal" or whatever, as soon as Sydney comments, the topic becomes irrelevant and the centre of attention becomes Sydney - lol.

    We have Rex, Mel, Terry and many anonymous', ignoring the crux of any article and simply going for Sydney - lol!

    As such whether Sydney knows it or not (perhaps he's much smarter than some give him credit for) even when there's an article which is Telstra negative (like this one), as soon as the heat is taken from Telstra and transferred to Sydney, Telstra are off the hook -lol!

    Periodically in desperation, even a pre-historic link to NWAT from 2006 magically appears with Sydney talking about his Telstra shares - but FROM 2006! Since then Sydney has repeated many times, that he "no longer has shares", so...

    Even so I have a theory which I'm surprised none of the "Sydney hating - conspiracy theorist, intelligentsia" have awoken to, in relation to shares, but that's my business - lol!

    So Einsteins, do you really think you are so smart after all?

    Although I don't always agree Syd, I certainly respect your pugnaciousness and belief in your cause, even when mercilessly attacked by those who disagree with you. So kudos my friend.

    So David I look forward to the expose` of the century - the life, times and shareholdings of the legend that is Sydney Lawrence - lol.

    @Sydney - life and times Terry -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117566)

    "We have Rex, Mel, Terry and many anonymous', ignoring the crux of any article and simply going for Sydney - lol!"

    umm, I have never targeted Sydney Lawrence, nor have I targeted anyone on this site.

    I don't agree with Sydney's one eyed view on Telstra nor do I agree with his (or others) who have the view that if you're not with Telstra you must be with Optus (or formally Terria),. But if we all had the same opinions then the discussion here would be pretty bland, so it's the differing opinions that make it all worthwhile.

    @sydney life and times SJT -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117596)

    Hello Terry,

    No disrespect intended and I certainly do not want to, and will not, become involved in a protracted disagreement over nothing.

    But there's absolutely no need to get all defensive on what was a throw away line in relation to an observation. "But since you have taken offense, please let me demonstrate "!

    My point was, with a tender for one of Australia's largest (if not the largest) ever projects in the balance, Sydney Lawrence gets more attention than anybody, don't you find that odd or even comical. Surely it is even a blight on some people's intelligence to be so easily led, by Sydney's Telstra exuberance and loyalty?

    Now is my cue to repeat what I said above -

    "We have Rex, Mel, TERRY and many anonymous', ignoring the crux of any article and simply going for Sydney.

    So are sure you wouldn't like to retract this above denial - "umm, I have never targeted Sydney Lawrence"?

    ZDNet. 11/11 - (topic) "TERRiA gets unions on board". Here's your comment "exclusively in reply to Sydney Lawrence", Terry.

    "No offense when I say this Sydney but you do post a lot of Telstra propaganda, so do you have anything to backup your claims that should Telstra not win the NBN bid that it will cost the Australian taxpayer and that the successful bidders plan will fall to pieces".

    There's just one comment I was referring to from you (and perhaps you have others) aimed at Sydney and without any reference to the topic?

    Funny thing is, I wasn't really even criticizing just making an observation! Yes, you were respectful, but regardless, you did exactly as I claimed and that's all I was saying.

    Sydney is indeed the fulcrum point of Australian Telecommunications. Where's that article David - lol!

    Cheers, SJT.

    @@sydney life and times Terry -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117658)

    "There's just one comment I was referring to from you (and perhaps you have others) aimed at Sydney and without any reference to the topic?"

    That comment you quoted me as saying was in direct reply to a statement made by Sydney. It was in complete context to the discussion point. Sure it was a reply to Sydney, but just in case you missed it this is a discussion forum, and replying to someone and asking questions on the topic is really what a discussion forum is all about.

    You're making it out as though I came after Sydney in a direct offensive post, when really he said something outlandish and I asked for clarification to backup his statement.

    It's pretty ironic considering the number of posts people make calling others ****heads or similar, you consider that one discussing the topic is the one that is directly targeting someone personally and those ones are fine to slip through the cracks ok.

    I'm with you Terry Anonymous -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117680)

    I think even SJT would have to admit you're right there

    Just think Sydney-itis my friend - lol! SJT -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117680)

    As I said Terry, I' m not going to argue. As such...

    I'm sorry that you have obviously taken offense over one small, simple remark, within a lengthy tongue-in-cheek comment! And taken offense to a remark which ironically, was one of the rare few which "didn't include any of those *** you highlighted" - go figure?

    So again I apologise for upsetting you and for having a little humour, "vaguely at your expense"!

    However, like it or not, agree or disagree, (remembering I have already apologised for upsetting you) I wasn't talking about these other "obviously much more derogatory comments", I was simply attempting (obviously unsuccessfully - lol) to bring a little humour into what has become a pretty nasty blog, by referring to a strange phenomena. Shall we name it "Sydney-itis"? Let's!

    Sydney-itis is an affliction that many who dislike Telstra suffer from, whereby they are helplessly drawn to Sydney's comments like a moth to a flame and admit it, you were one of them. I proved my point, by showing a comment from you which simply demonstrated this and disproved your claim. Anyway...

    "I totally agree with you" in relation to these other comments being much, much more disgraceful - no doubt whatsoever (see they didn't slip through the cracks at all). Unfortunately, there will always be a "fringe element".

    But you do understand, that wasn't the point I was making? Regardless of these other childish taunts and expletives, it doesn't change one iota that "Sydney is strangely the star attraction at these blogs (surely you'd agree)" - which was my sole point, before you obviously missed the point, got all upset and hijacked my comment. Hmmm, never mind.

    Now I remember why I stopped commenting, in such forums!

    The end - from this end anyway, cheers.

    @Just think Sydney-itis my friend - lol! Terry -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117734)

    "So again I apologise for upsetting you and for having a little humour, "vaguely at your expense"!"

    No, what you said was..

    "We have Rex, Mel, Terry and many anonymous', ignoring the crux of any article and simply going for Sydney - lol!"

    But what you failed to mention is that when Sydney is replied to, typically it is on the topic of the article and is part of the discussion, not going after Sydney directly but rather going after his opinion when it starts to get a little too far out there to be realistic.

    You on the other hand specifically labeled (incorrectly) a group of people as ignoring the topic of the article and only posting to target another user.

    Maybe you should look at your own post instead of being critical of others, and maybe you should consider posting something on the topic of the article (Telstra NBN submission in case it has eluded you) instead of merely ignoring it yourself and then proclaiming how others ignore the crux of any article.

    "Now I remember why I stopped commenting, in such forums!"

    Comment on the article and you may start a discussion, only post to comment on what you think of other posterse and ignore the topic of the article and you'll get exactly the above.

    "The end - from this end anyway, cheers."

    Fair enough, I hope if you post under this article again it will mention something on your opinion of Telstras NBN submission, but I won't hold my breath :-)

    are you guys for real Anonymous -- 03/12/08 (in reply to #320117768)

    man you guys carry on. sjt for god sake, stop trying to be the comedian and just tell us all your opinion on the nbn and terry, stop being such an insecure little girly. talk about much ado over nothing.

    Lord Watchdog is still here :-) Mel Sommersberg -- 07/12/08 (in reply to #320117566)

    I am he.

    Abusive Comments Anonymous -- 30/11/08

    Why does one particular anonymous person have to come on here slinging abuse at every comment he does not agree with? Get a life!

    @abusive ned kelly -- 30/11/08 (in reply to #320117580)

    ah there's more than one. its just that people like you who support one side or the other can't recognise abuse from your own side!

    Telstra Belongs To The Yanks Anonymous -- 01/12/08

    The sooner we get rid of stench at the top the better. Still on dial up. It stinks! as does ABG as does the other connections,we need a National Network ,landline based for all australians.
    Its that ffff ing simple Sol T should be kicked out of the country as far as I am concerned hes a thief like all seppos.

    Seasons greetings. Sydney Lawrence -- 01/12/08

    SJT how kind you are but really, compared to most other composers on this Site my simple contribution fades by comparison.

    SJT your praise should be reflected tenfold to yourself for your myriad of useful deliverance's over the past years.

    Many thanks to all, especially ZDNet Australia for the forum. In the near future I will be circumnavigating South America on the Queen Mary so hope to connect again in a few months.

    Best wishes, Seasons Greetings and good health to all.

    Sydney on holidays? Anonymous -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117605)

    Sydney can't take holidays, the anti telstra gang may rise up and take advantage of such an absence :P

    Anchors Aweigh. Sydney Lawrence -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117619)

    lol... all will be well but the cost of Internet on cruise ships is horrendous. Say like 80c per minute so you have to be an oil sheik to afford it.

    Anyway by the time I get back all the fun will be over and all the decisions made.

    @ Anchors Aweigh Anonymous -- 01/12/08 (in reply to #320117644)

    We'll miss you Sydney. I can't stand Telstra but I love your input. You're the only pro telstra person that doesn't resort to insulting everyone that disagrees with you

    @@ Anchors Aweigh Terry -- 02/12/08 (in reply to #320117647)

    "We'll miss you Sydney. I can't stand Telstra but I love your input. You're the only pro telstra person that doesn't resort to insulting everyone that disagrees with you"

    As much as I hate to say it I agree with this, Sydney is completely one eyed but at least he doesn't stoop the levels some do with resorting to name calling and insults.

    Enjoy your holiday Sydney.

    Never met a person I didn't like. Sydney Lawrence -- 04/12/08 (in reply to #320117681)

    Anon and Terry thank you, you are nice people. I don't leave until the week before Xmas so you may have to suffer me for a few more weeks.

    Thanks for the best wishes and they are reciprecated ten fold.

    Comment 199!! joe -- 03/12/08

    Drum Roll!!!! and the coveted 200 goes to....

    btw, good article david, got ppl talking,

    Oh Hum Anon A Mouse -- 07/12/08

    Interesting article, some with interesting comments. Beyond the slagging, dreaming racism and sheer blind stupidity there were even some points made.
    Some even based on fact.
    Firstly, as I have read and understood the proposal guidlines, no bids were requested just proposals. The government listed what it prefered as its goals. But at no point in the document is it stated that the points had to be met and not to meet them would void anyone's proposal.
    So we need to stop arguing about 'non compliant bids' as there were no bids, just proposals.

    Secondly, people keep saying Telstra needs to be broken up. Why? Operationaly they already are. Retail can not talk to Wholesale without the legal department in between. Some core areas that do have access to a greater level of information about different providers and resellers. ie the line programmers, certain areas of faults etc. This is because it makes no economic sense to duplicate departments that will essentially be doing the exactly the same work.
    Spreading that duplication across an entire company would only increase those costs, which would then go to the consumer.

    Thirdly, in order to invest responsibly a company needs to make a profit. A company like Telstra with the high level of maintenance ( staff, fuel, copper, IT, etc) happens to need to make a large profit inorder to be able to afford its running costs as well future expansion. We only have to see the current financial crisis to see what happens when companies borrow beyond any sane means.

    Forthly (is that a word?) People here are talking about prices Telstra are quoting. Too expensive, rip-off ****'s. A- Telstra does not have control on its prices, the ACCC does for both wholesale and retail. If you search the ACCC site you will see this. Heck you will even see that they accept that what you pay as line rental could be less than the cost to supply you the service. B)- none off us here truly know or understand the costs of rolling out and maintaining the NBN. However if you compare say Japan's FTTH that cost is heavily subsidised by the government, not by private enterprise. A bit more research would reveal that is the case in most countries that outrank Australia in these stakes. This is without bringing landmass, terrain, population density, local councils, planning etc into this.
    C) Telstra have stated that they will accept the ACCC continuing the control of its prices if the get the NBN.

    Lastly DB some balance would be good. How about going through the Terria (now defunct), OPTUS , ACACIA, proposals with the same fervour that you do with Telstra.
    Maybe actually question their motives, and their actual ability to deliver.
    Then again that would require jounalism of a higher standard and greater courage than a blog will allow.

    So endeth the squeak

    Anti-Telstra blog Anonymous -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118236)

    This little gem was set up by ZDNET to continue the "bash" on Telstra by all the Anti Telstra Bashers out there!

    Telstra is no longer a political football & has more backers thanks to Dr Pnil/NWAT!!!

    Telstra is anti Telstra Anonymous -- 15/12/08 (in reply to #320118255)

    Nobody is more anti-Telstra than Telstra itself.

    Phil is a ****(not NWAT). Once him, Sol, and the rest of the dodgy staff are gone, and the company is broken into nothingness, Australia will be better off.

    Believe it.

    NBN impacts on Telstra's social media Anonymous -- 17/12/08 (in reply to #320118255)

    My name is Mike Hickinbotham and I am a Telstra employee and a NWAT blogger.

    While I am in no position to comment on the NBN bid, I can comment about the online conversations that have resulted from the NBN RFP decision and how that impacts Telstra.

    Checkout the following blog: http://tinyurl.com/6mzrz4

    Telstra rules Anonymous -- 20/12/08

    Conroy thinks this a Shoot Out at the O.K. Corral this blokes got a big mess on his hands sack the twit .

    Amateur Telstra AntiTelstra -- 21/12/08

    This company has had the opportunity for the last 10 years to have built a cutting edge, broad based and market dominant broadband network for the nation ... but it choose not to.

    I say sucked in to being precluded from the tendering process you arrogant twats.

    The board of Telstra have been far more interested in maximising the share dividend to the shareholders (pigs in the trough) than building and supporting the technological future of the Australian Internet sector.

    You deserve everything you get, you clowns!

    @ amateur Anonymous -- 21/12/08 (in reply to #320119714)

    yeah and if they had have built the 'market dominant network for the nation you say, idiots like you would be screaming 'monopolists' even more than you are now and crying about the 'affordability'. cant win can they.

    wake up stupid, telstra owe you nothing. they were privatised and like it or not because we currenty reside in the real world, telstra are in business now their owners the shareholders and nothing else.

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David Braue

David Braue

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