Turns out the NBN is more expensive after all

Full Duplex

David Braue

A view from the trenches of Australian telecommunications. As the name implies, it’s a two-way conversation and we ask you not to pull any punches ... we won’t.

After years of debate, pointed arguments and fact-filled diatribes, it turns out that the coalition is right: the NBN will be more expensive than ordinary broadband. It will cost more to sign up for, more to use in the long term, more to make phone calls and more to download your data. It won't return value for money, it's likely to struggle to enjoy the kind of take-up that the government wants and it's an overpriced, over-specified mess that will leave customers cursing the day the government ever strung together the letters N, B and N.

That is, if you stick with Telstra.

After months of keeping the market waiting, everyone's favourite incumbent played its NBN hand this week, and revealed NBN pricing that comes in two flavours: 25Mbps expensive, and 100Mbps very expensive.


Can Telstra justify charging first-class prices on an economy-class NBN? (Image by Richard Moross, CC BY-SA 3.0)

I may have simplified things somewhat — you're welcome to run through the actual pricing to see just how much it will cost you — but suffice to say that Telstra's pricing has resurrected its time-honoured tradition of charging way more than the rest of the market, leveraging its market cachet and reputation to squeeze customers for a bit more dough.

Interestingly, the company seems so determined to avoid low-value customers that it has even foregone the option of offering 12Mbps services altogether.

Some might say that this is to avoid a situation where it's marketing NBN services against comparable ADSL services, and they might equally say that Telstra's high prices are a result of not wanting to prematurely push down its ADSL prices. But I suspect that the deeper truth is that Telstra simply can't be bothered with the low-value customers who will be buying 12Mbps NBN services.

And why bother? Entry-level users are expensive to support; they don't want to take up value-added services on which Telstra depends; and they complain if they don't get what they want, feel that they're not getting value for money or have issues with being randomly overcharged.

As opposed to its long campaign of infrastructure-based blackmail, Telstra will now sink or swim on the NBN based on nothing more than its ability to convince customers to pay what it's asking.

This is one of the most important things about the NBN; as opposed to its long campaign of infrastructure-based blackmail that passed for a service and pricing strategy for years, Telstra will now sink or swim on the NBN based on nothing more than its ability to convince customers to pay what it's asking. This will, we are told, come through over-servicing them with Telstra bonuses, like its extensive service fleet, skilled technicians and gadget-filled retail shops — in essence, all the stuff that Telstra's NBN premium will fund.

The thing is — and this is something that most customers will still not appreciate — that you can get exactly the same quality of NBN service, with far more generous quotas and different value-adds, from the myriad other ISPs now lining up as retail service providers (RSPs).

If you have an affection for quirky commercials and anthropomorphic routers, you might go with iiNet. If you're more into birds of the cartoon kind, you might choose Dodo, and get some discount electricity in the process. If you like purple, choose TPG. If you want an innovative mobile-and-NBN bundle for discounted services (Nigel, have your people call my people), then you might choose Vodafone. If you just want a cheap plan, you might sign up for SkyMesh's $29.95 per month plan, which offers 12Mbps services and 5GB/10GB of data — or its 100Mbps service with a 2TB quota.

It all depends on your personal preferences — but one thing is certain. Even though careful buyers will quickly learn that they can get a 25Mbps service with 10GB/10GB quota for $39.95 from SkyMesh, untold others will flock to the Telstra website and commit themselves to paying $80 per month for exactly the same thing — with the added bonus of being forced to take a vestigial fixed phone line running over Telstra's soon-to-be-deprecated copper.

Yet, while no value-conscious buyer with an ounce of sense would commit to Telstra's plans, I'd bet that millions of customers will still run to Telstra and sign on the dotted line. For many Australians, the words "Telstra" and "communications" remain synonymous, and no amount of logic is going to change that — ever.

I'd bet that millions of customers will still sign on the dotted line. For many Australians, "Telstra" and "communications" remain synonymous, and no amount of logic is going to change that.

Judging by their determination to ignore the pricing realities of the NBN, I suspect that many members of the coalition have similarly struggled to make this cognitive leap. This is a fundamental problem with competition. It's a great idea, but, in the end, you can fiddle with the market as much as you want, but if you can't change consumer behaviour as well, you'll see your great idea sink into the sea of irrelevance.

In a market where inertia rules, this happens all the time. Loyal customers will not only pay Telstra twice as much for the same NBN service that they could get elsewhere, but they'll also even pony up for a redundant copper phone service — and they'll do it because Telstra says they have to.

Far away from the rarefied sphere of intelligent tech consumers, buying decisions really are often based entirely on brand. Qantas is the most expensive airline in Australia's skies, but it still attracts legions of loyal fliers. Name-brand milk comes from the same udders as the store-brand stuff, but many people still buy based on labels. Expensive wines often taste just the same as cheap-and-nasty plonk, but we are still happy to pay extra for the perceived value of a particular brand.

Telstra is counting on familiarity-driven behaviour to prevail, as it has been able to do so quite successfully in the past, such as when it capitalised on Optus and Vodafone languor to attract nearly one million new mobile customers in the last six months of 2011.

Can it repeat this success on the NBN? Not necessarily; this time around, Telstra is selling exactly the same access product as its competitors. It won't be able to crow about its network coverage, transfer speeds or the reliability of its services, since they'll be exactly the same, but it has a strong brand name — and even though they have a better story to tell, its competitors may find themselves continuing to struggle as they seek to prove that to a sceptical citizenry.

What do you think? Will you buy Telstra's NBN services? Are its prices a clever stopgap to discourage customers from abandoning ADSL? Or does its fixed-bundling requirement show that it has become so self-invested that it has shot itself in the foot?

Talkback

"Interestingly, the company seems so determined to avoid low-value customers that it has even foregone the option of offering 12Mbps services altogether."

Umm... have you considered that 12Mbps will be obsolete tomorrow? It already is. Get with the times and get out of the past where you and the Noalition are forever stuck in. $50 is very reasonable for new technology compared to the $99 Telstra was ripping people off for ADSL2.

rajivdxrajivdx February 28th, 2012
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"Noalition" – I like that. But there will be plenty of people happy to take up 12Mbps as a starter NBN service and go up from there. These will be low-value punters who just want a basic email Internet service etc. Yet I would suggest that Telstra (a) doesn't want to lose margins by catering to these customers or (b) already has them stitched up with ADSL services.

Its motivation in skipping 12Mbps is that it already has a product that operates at 12Mbps (in theory, I know!) If it priced its NBN services at the same price, it would hasten the demise of 10 years of ADSL revenues. Yet this also works against it because its competitors have priced NBN at ADSL-comparable rates because they have no legacy infrastructure to protect. So those competitors will be at a pricing advantage against Telstra from Day 1 – and Telstra will focus on the business or bundle-hungry customers from which it can extract sizeable margins.

brauebraue February 28th, 2012
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12Mbps is about 8Mbps faster than I can currently get on ADSL2+ and more than that again than is available on wireless, all this at less than 12km from the CBD of a capital city. So don't diss the lower end NBN speeds quite so quickly.

ddoodyddoody February 28th, 2012
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I was going to say the same. My ADSL2 is advertised as a 24 Mbps service. With just 1 corner between me and the exchange (I can see it from the front gate), I'm happy to get 6 Mbps.

Problem with broadband in Australia (and plenty of other countries for that matter) up until now is that services are advertised as "up to", meaning your speed will go "up to" whatever speed limit you sign on for. So with ADSL2, you get "up to" 24 Mbps, or in most cases, well unto 10 Mbps. Not all cases, just most.

NBN is advertised as "at least". So at the end of the day, my "up to" 24 Mbps service cant match the "at least" 12 Mbps the base NBN offers.

GavGav February 29th, 2012
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Who is advertising NBN speeds as "at least" X Mbps? No RSP should be advertising in those terms. The residential services that NBN wholesales to RSPs are characterised by Peak information Rate (PIR) which is a theoretical maximum. If you want guaranteed speeds there are some business products that have a Committed Information Rate (CIR). (Refer to Ch 8 of the NBN Corporate Plan - which incidentally is overdue for an update.) There is an explicit potential source of congestion built into NBN's product structure: RSPs not only have to buy (rent) the residential services, they also have to pay for bandwidth on their aggregated interface between NBN and the RSP's backhaul. This is called a Connectivity Virtual Circuit (CVC) and is charged at $20 per Mbps. (It's not clear whether this is a recurring charge but I assume it is because it accounts for a substantial and increasing part of NBN's projected revenue.) As I read it, an RSP trying to save money might skimp on backhaul bandwidth or on the size of the CVC. The Corporate Plan is not entirely clear, but it includes this curious statement: "The Connectivity Virtual Circuit (CVC) in the product construct is an aggregation point where the Access Seekers can choose to contend their traffic to create differentiation."

AchillesAchilles March 2nd, 2012
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Living that close to your exchange you should see 20+ megabits on ADSL. I get 8mbps and I'm about 3kms from my exchange but yYou are right that the NBN speeds would still be greater.

rocketfirerocketfire March 3rd, 2012
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Telstra would probably still offer ADSL2+ plans on its copper even if NBN fibre is available until its complete hand off.

If its making big bucks on ADSL2+ customers on a network it already owns why would it off NBNCo services to replace what it already offers and makes good money from.


The same would be said for example, why would TPG stop offering ADSL even if it did offer NBNCo fibre, which would give it bigger returns? same is said for iinet, AAPT , primus etc.

They all off their existing products, and NBN fibre is an additional product offering, which could even be less profitable for the ISP vs. say winning a customer on its ON-NET ADSL.

So it looks like Telstra is offering NBNCo fibre as a high end niche product, that is why there isnt really an entry plan, they would convince you to go on ADSL2+, and their $80pm entry NBNCo plan which lots of people are bagging could be for various reasons, which you can figure out.

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 March 1st, 2012
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Simplified you call it I would call it Fraudulent what a complete beat up,are you paid to lobby against the NBN,ACCC to be advised.

Brian62Brian62 February 28th, 2012
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@brian62: Did you just read the same article I did? It's not anti-NBN at all. If anything, it's pro-NBN but anti-Telstra.

ddoodyddoody February 28th, 2012
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I think you need to read beyond the first paragraph.

HazTechDadHazTechDad February 29th, 2012
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I can understand not offering 12mbps plans but not offering 50mbps plans is a bit retarded. I doubt many of Telstra's customers will understand this though.

It’s also hard to say if Telstra have shot themselves in the foot yet, perhaps some customers will wake up eventually, I have a feeling many I know will, as a result of Telstra's NBN pricing stunt I will be withholding tech support for friends/family until they dump Telstra :-)

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale February 28th, 2012
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N.B.N will be as synomous with wasted money as 9/11 is with terrorism. I am a regular player of mmorpg's and use xboxs' online gaming. I stream foxtel though the xbox wirelessly. I download movies from the internet regularly and watch parliament question time streamed to my desktop. I normally stream the radio while i am doing one of the above. I have ADSL2 and it suits all these needs and i experience good d/l times. I am yet to come across ANYONE who can tell me how this Massive Waste of Money will benefit our country more than investing the same into our health system / emergency services etc. Anyone backing this plan does not understand economics 101 - that is, when you are in billions of $ in debt.....STOP SPENDING ON EXTRAS.

hotsaucehotsauce February 28th, 2012
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Perhaps for people like yourself, at current usage levels, you are correct. However, you are obviously getting pretty good ADSL performance. I live only 12kms from the CBD and yet am lucky if I get 3Mbps from my ADSL, and wireless performance in the area is even worse. Many of my neighbours can't get either. Add to that the fact I work 100% from home, and that it is impossible to guarantee ADSL to a premises until AFTER you connect the phone (for which you must be the current owner or renter), and you start getting into issues with where you can live too. The NBN is the only solution that guarantees (almost) everyone can have the same service. It's not only a matter of performance, it's a matter of EQUALITY.

ddoodyddoody February 28th, 2012
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Yes and investment in electricy networks a hundred years ago was equally unjustiable as electronic medical aids had not yet been invented.

xBeaniexBeanie February 28th, 2012
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Just wanted to go through a couple of things for other people that might read your post:

You say that the NBN will be synonymous with wasted money but I don't understand how this can be said. After 15 years the NBN is forecast to have repaid the government the full network build costs with 7% interest. At the very most all you could claim would be that the NBN was a waste of time.

It's good to know that your current ADSL solution fits your needs, but as a couple of other people have pointed out, one of the primary goals of the NBN is providing a broadband service to all Australians. I personally have quite a good sync speed (living about 300m from the exchange), but even I wish my internet access speed was improved. Running a small media business, I'm often finding myself needing to bounce sizable raw and uncompressed files around the web to clients in other locations. Often times this means leaving files uploading overnight to my FTP - files that a client would have preffered to have in their hands as soon as I finished. I understand that I may not be your typical user but I'm just sayin' - just because ADSL is enough for your current needs, doesn't mean that it will be fast enough for others current needs or even your own needs in the future.

Also it might be worth looking at how the NBN compares to health statistics in bugetary terms. In one sense, even that is a little pointless since the 36 billion NBN isn't counted on the budget as an expense (since it makes a return, it's counted as an investment). But just to compare figures, current govt expenditure for the 11-12 period is 365billion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Australian_federal_budget) of which health secures almost 60 billion. Even if the NBN were included on the Budget, it would only work out to 3.6 billion per year (36 billion/10years). A relative drop in the bucket.

It might also be worthwhile having a look through Nick Ross' article. It's a long read but goes through many of the benfits and savings that could be realised in many industries (including health) with the NBN. http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2012/02/21/3435975.htm

Economics 101 typically has positive things to say about infrasture investment when in debt since it promotes economic growth in the long term. The fact that this particular infrastructure also pays for itself financially (and makes a profit) is just the icing on the cake.

BradCubeBradCube February 28th, 2012
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A few pointers:

"After 15 years the NBN is forecast to have repaid the government the full network build costs with 7% interest."

Key word there is forecast. If you go back and obtain original copies of past budgets delivered by the current government (with much fan-fare at the time- admittingly all goverments like to) and compare to the final Budget outcomes (also released by the Treasury) you'll notice a startling pattern of over-reported income and under-reported expenses. Now i'm happy for you to write off one or two years for the GFC as unpredictable. It's arguable both ways, so i'll consider it mute, but the other two have grossly over-estimated growth, so is not highly feasible that such a situation could also occur to the NBN numbers?

Secondly, until the last few months i've been stuck on an ADSL connection at home for a variety of reasons and just managed to upgrade to ADSL 2+. I can honestly state that my house has the worst connection (theoretically) for the exchange as the property is the furtherest located from the exchange. Now with this upgrade in speed that i've seen (8x improvement), I noticed that the only change to my internet habits is that my web pages load quicker and YouTube just manages to load in real-time (on average at least). Aside from that, no change in internet patterns that have been established for many years now. And for general information, another member of the house runs their own freelancing Graphic Design business from the property. Downloads are faster, but don't affect their productivity (they were already faster than her) and uploads she no longer has to wait for. So she now has to create an excuse to go get a coffee rather than making one whilst it uploads... such an improvement there. Also to think that the copper services we have currently are the best that could ever be, would be to very mistaken. A quick wiki (or better sources if you bother to spend the time) search would show many technologies, some even already deployed overseas that would see an evolution of the Australian service. Not revolutionary, but still progress none the less.

Finally as a health professional myself, i know very much how well 3.6 Billion dollars could be used in our health system over 10 years. Have you heard of the latest pay dispute for Victorian Nurses? Well they've got a point on how badly paid they are. Then just remember that they have a very strong and arguably militant union, large membership and a visible front line roll which all roll into a very good bargaining position. So consider all the other front-line health professionals that aren't so lucky, they been suffering on miserable pay for over a decade now for what can be a very thankless job. But admittedly that amount of funding would do far more than just moving towards paying staff fair wages, it could be used to update ALL Medical Imaging equipment to the latest state of the art 512 slice CT Scanners, 3 Telsa+ MRI scanners, respiratory gated Radiation Therapy Treatments. The list goes on... Now you don't NEED all that equipment to be state of the art however it's just an brief overview of some of the benefits. Spending less to upgrade the oldest of machines and creating more regular replacement programs of old equipment would overall benefit patient outcomes and contribute to a more efficient health system too.

No ones arguing that you couldn't make investments that would give a return either. An example might be a new road with tolls that the government builds and then collects the tolls. Perhaps expansion or the creation of new ports around Australia as we so often hear we desperately need if we're not going to fall flat on our faces in the next 20 - 30 years. Or you could even invest some of the money into broadband infrastructure.

The point is governments, just like everyone else has a finite amount of money and can't afford to run a deficit every year. So just like the controller of finances at home (be it husband, wife or accountant...) has to take responsibility, so too does the government need to take responsibility and make at times hard choices. So, the reason people protest the $30+ Billion figure is because from what they've heard and know, they don't think the whole amount is wisely spent on broadband.

I personally would think that Backbone infrastructure and good international connections are the most pressing concerns with the industry now that the ACCC seems to have learnt a bit better about trying to create an even playing field on copper. That said i see no reason to be putting in obsolete technology into the ground in new estates, so i totally agree with those fibre roll-outs except that, it would be easier and cheaper for the government (at least up-front) to simply mandate the use of fibre. I think the rest of the money could've gone on a variety of more beneficial projects for all Australians, ranging from traditional infrastructure through to improvements in Health and Education.

Whilst i think it's an admirable goal and i'm sure if given plenty of time i could find more uses for it, i still feel that compared to the alternatives, i'd be happy with more modest increases in speed and bandwidth for my broadband connection in order to allow ourselves to not fall behind in other equally important areas.

I heard a frightening statistic that over 50% of Australian domestic consumption of goods is still transported on a highly inefficient (compared to rail at least) road transportation system. Upgrading this into newer transportation be it rail, sea or air (some new interesting blimps have been designed around cargo transport for the future) would see significant financial benefits for the investor (the government) as well as the private sector. A win-win for all Australians when combined with evolutionary improvements in several catagories.

AWYAWY February 29th, 2012
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The pros and cons of government spending can be argued until we're blue in the face... we all have different perspectives and priorities.

The issues surrounding internet speeds and availability are also skewed by perspective, but while you are happy loading a few web pages and watching some youtube videos, many people have much higher demands.

Consider this: I run my business from home. I work there 100% of the time. Speed is not my issue, but reliability and availability are. If I wanted to move houses for any reason, it is extremely difficult. ADSL cannot be guaranteed. Even if the current owner has ADSL, the moment (s)he disconnects the phone service the ADSL provisioning could be reassigned to another line. There may not be any other available ports. Telstra, in it's infinite wisdom, may switch the line to a different system and preclude it having ADSL regardless of port availability (this happened to me last year when I forgot to pay my phone bill - it took weeks to get it all sorted again). Wireless coverage is patch and prone to dropping out. It is also slower and vastly more expensive per megabyte (this is changing, but only slowly). In fact, when buying my current property I was limited to those where I could see a foxtel cable running in the street, so at least I could have bigpond cable as a backup should ADSL not be available (and I hate Telstra, so that would have been uncomfortable for me). Not everyone can live in the areas where cable is installed.

People always complain that we don't need the NBN because the current connections are fast enough. For most (for now) this may be true. But speed is not the only issue. UBIQUITY is just as important if not more so. We need to be able to guarantee a certain service level to ALL premises, not just those lucky enough to be close to the local telephone exchange or Telstra/Optus cable.

ddoodyddoody February 29th, 2012
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AWY

Thanks for the very interesting read.

The NBN is reputed to cost taxpayers anywhere between forty and fifty billion dollars over the next decade which, in the main, will be through borrowings. This massive outlay is not part of prudent budgetary safeguards because of the fallacy that the project is deemed to be, self revenue and profit generating capital works.

No doubt, Gillard and Swan are oblivious of the compound effect that sort of debt will have on our economy.

Vasso MassonicVasso Massonic February 29th, 2012
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Yeah Vasso...

Who would ever have thought, borrowing money to build a business and having that business repay itself, and later, make a profit, feasible?

Err, just like, every business, like, everywhere.

BetaBeta February 29th, 2012
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Rubbish. Assuming the revenue and costs go essentially to plan (with contracts all signed on-budget, and takeup on target, it's so-far-so-good), "taxpayers" have nothing to do with it. It will cost users of the network. There will be some taxpayers who don't pay a cent towards the NBN because they won't use it, and there will be some non-taxpayers who contribute a substantial amount. There will be a large number of businesses who contribute.

As for the NBN being off-budget.... Complain all you like, but putting a returning investment off-budget is standard international accounting practise. In the case of the NBN, that assertion is backed by economists, KPMG and Greenhill-Caliburn.

HazTechDadHazTechDad February 29th, 2012
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HAZ, Thanks.

On a project of this magnitude, undertaken with 100% borrowings, one must assume nothing. Given that if we do, it would end up making an **** of yoU and ME.

NBN has been operational for may years on the never never and one wonders how much was spent by them to date and who paid and accounted for the interest? Perhaps you should my question to KPMG and Greenhill-Caliburn for a professional opinion

Vasso MassonicVasso Massonic February 29th, 2012
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The NBN corporate plan is projecting (I believe) a 7% ROI and full repayment by 2034.

It is a weighted and measured document.

Where's your's to disprove it?

BetaBeta February 29th, 2012
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Hi Vasso,

You can acess the NBN Annual reports here if you were interested in looking over current expenditure:

http://www.nbnco.com.au/about-us/annual-reports.html

BradCubeBradCube February 29th, 2012
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Thanks Brad

Interestingly, as at 30 June 2011 the cumulative equity is said to be $1.362 billion and the accumulated losses $403.2 million. Meaning that using a nominal AAA rated interest rate of 2.75% would accrue an additional cost of $38 million pa and not included in the loss.

Vasso MassonicVasso Massonic February 29th, 2012
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That's lovely Vasso...

But how many new businesses do you know of, which are profitable from Day 1?

Obviously a build of this magnitude will need years to get the head above water, which is basic common sense, so please.

So let's revisit in a few years (if the NBN hasn't stubbornly been killed off by short-sighted conservative dries) and then do the figures.

I see your precious TLS shares have increased since the NBN deal, but you keep flying that NWAT flag.

BetaBeta February 29th, 2012
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"On a project of this magnitude, undertaken with 100% borrowings, one must assume nothing."

I agree Vasso. Perhaps you can help convince the Coalition (Turnbull) how a cost benifit analysis would be a complete waste of money for this project...

omegaomega February 29th, 2012
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Vasso Massonic quotes:

NBN has been operational for many years on the never never . . .

The NBN is reputed to cost taxpayers anywhere between forty and fifty billion dollars over the next decade which, in the main, will be through borrowings.

This massive outlay is not part of prudent budgetary safeguards because of the fallacy that the project is deemed to be, self revenue and profit generating capital works.

Vasso you are using words but not making sense. You are making a false claim like "been operational for many years" or "reputed to cost taxpayers anywhere between forty and fifty billion dollars" or "the fallacy that the project is deemed".
Each of these are at best not accurate or just plain wrong. You combine these little 'facts' and use they to conclude a final major anti NBN comment as if it's a reasoned argument. The politicians can do that in Parliament and not be pulled out for it but not here mate. And I would hope that applies to me as well. If I say something is white when it is in fact red, then pull me up. But if I say I like white better than red, then that’s an opinion and is OK.

GoldieGoldie March 28th, 2012
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I see a couple of fundamental flaws in your argument AWY. First, the forecast angle. Main issue I have is that any changes to the forecast are irrelevant.

Most of your post appears to be how the money being spent building the NBN could be used elsewhere for better purpose. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the money being spent on the NBN will be returned in full. So the money you expect to be spent elsewhere is still available!

This is one fact that keeps getting overlooked. The NBN is cost neutral. It is an investment with a guaranteed return.

If its forecast to take 15 years to return that investment, and it takes 30 years, the investment is still returned. For zero cost to the government, we have an upgraded telecommunications system that will be in use for the next 50+ years. If not longer.

The second issue I have is about usage. Its great for you that what you have is enough, but what about when you upgraded from dialup to ADSL? Was ADSL enough to cover your previous use? I'm sure it was, but your use has grown to the point there is no way you could revert to dialup.

And its this usage creep that is going to come back to bite us if something like the NBN isnt rolled out. Leave it to private enterprise, they'll use a just in time mentality to roll out new technology a year after we need it.

NBN resets this mentality so every provider is on a level playing field. For me, I cant wait personally. With ADSL2, I have a slow connection every time my flatmate patches a game, or I stream something to the tele, or PS3, or whatever.

Technology has slowly but with certainty incorporated more and more devices into my life, and thats not changing. 1 or 2 devices using an ADSL connection is fine, but when 5 or 6 are using it at the same time, you better not be wanting to do something fast.

As I have pointed out elsewhere, I live within sight of the local exchange, and am happy to get a 6 Mbps connection. When thats spread over 2 PC's, a PS3, and a IPTV capable tele, its not enough. And thats modest usage, so whats it going to be like in 5 years? Or 10?

I'm just glad the "wireless is enough" crowd has dispersed.

GavGav February 29th, 2012
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Hi AWY - thanks for your comments.

The NBN's business case isn't part of the federal budget so I'm unsure of the argument you are making when you say "If you go back and obtain original copies of past budgets delivered by the current government and compare to the final Budget outcomes you'll notice a startling pattern of over-reported income and under-reported expenses". Perhaps you mean to suggest that the current government is so poor at managing finances that anything they budget will end up blowing out? Either way the Corperate Plan for the NBN hasn't been put together by the Govt. - it's been put together by NBN Co itself. It's a publicly accessible document (http://www.nbnco.com.au/assets/documents/nbn-co-3-year-gbe-corporate-plan-final-17-dec-10.pdf). Perhaps the fact that it's been put together by NBN Co seems a bit dubious, but I would recommend having a look over it anyway.

You can also have a look at a review of the Coperate Plan published on the dbcde.gov.au website (http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/132711/Review_of_NBN_Co_Limiteds_Corporate_Plan-Executive_Summary.pdf)

Fairly boring documents I realise, but the point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't seem fair to assume that the costs of the NBN will blow-out before they have. Every indication so far seems to suggest that things are on track financially (http://www.nbnco.com.au/assets/documents/nbnco-annual-report-2011.pdf). Now with Telstra's structural seperation agreement in place, rollout can (hopefully) ramp up to match original forecasts.

Good to hear that you've been connected to ADSL2+. To be fair though I'm a little doubtful of your 8x improvement if you have "the worst connection (theoretically)". Take a look at Internode's speedgraph (http://www.internode.on.net/residential/adsl_broadband/easy_broadband/performance/) Now I realise this graph is approximate but I can't identify many points where ADSL2+ is capable of an 8 fold increase over ADSL1. Perhaps you were simply on a speed limited ADSL1 plan previously? Whichever the case, my point is that you're not experiencing the worst connection in australia currently. There a people stuck on dialup in rural areas, people stuck on overloaded 3g networks, people behind RIMs, and others that living so far out on the limits of copper that their sync speeds are horrible. The NBN fixes all of this.

I think you are probably correct when reffering to web browsing habits for users previously connected to ADSL. But I don't think the purpose of the NBN is to simply make web browsing faster - it's being built to accomodate the needs of businesses now and the needs home users in the future. What is being built is beyond adequate for home users today - but that's the whole point.

I'm unsure of what sort of files your family member is regularly sending to clients but I know that in my experience, it's not uncommon for me to be creating high res photoshop files that weigh in at 500MB-1GB in size. In all honesty though - if these were the biggest files I had to deal with, I wouldn't be too worried. For my business, it's video files that are the killer size wise. When final files are ready to send to clients, it's uncommon for them to be under 1GB in size. Usually they are multiple GB's and usually there are multiple files too. But really this is only the tip of the iceberg. With 4k TV's just beginning to enter the market now, file sizes are only going to continue to grow on my end (and your end as a consumer too). Currently, throwing files on a HDD and posting them to my clients can often be faster than uploading them to the web.

I appreciate your reluctance to support a change to fibre when you believe there is still more in copper that could boost speeds. In my mind though, with copper deteriorating all over the country, even if we can find ways to boost the speed, how many people will be able to appreciate the increase in speed? Since signal deteriorates over length of the copper, it seems that we will still be in the unfortunate position of having people on the outer limits of copper experiencing poor connection speeds. Additionally, how scaleable are improvements to copper connection speeds? The fibre being rolled out today on the NBN is already capable of 1Gbit/sec (even if the retail plans are not in place yet) and to upgrade that capacity in the future all that needs to be replaced is the termination points on either end of the cable. Will copper ever be able to push 1Gbit/sec? Will it be scaleable beyond 1Gbit/sec? I doubt it, and as a result improvements to copper technology seem to me a stop gap measure before we'll have to end up changing over to fibre.

I have no doubt that there are real beneficial uses for an additional 3.6 billion per year in health - but that wasn't really my point. My point was that 3.6 billion per year being added into the health budget only eqautes to a 6% increase. Additionally there is one key difference between spending money on health vs the NBN, in the case of health the money spent does not come back. That doesn't mean investing in health care should be avoided, but it does mean that investing in the NBN shouldn't be avoided for financial reasons - especially when it has the ability to offer savings and improvements to the very health system we are both concerned with.

According to budget.gov.au "Budget remains on track for a surplus in 2012‑13" (http://www.budget.gov.au/2011-12/content/overview/html/overview_key_initiatives.htm). So while I appreciate your concern with running a constant budget deficit I'm not sure you need to be worried in this case. In my mind the reason many Australian's consider 30billion a waste of money on broadband is because they seem to think that the money dissapears into a black hole. Most people I talk to don't seem to understand that all of their taxpaying dollars will actually be repaid with 7% interest in the long run. Even if it wasn't to come back with interest (since you seem to dispute this), it still remains that their money will be repaid - it's not 30 billion gone.

Backbone infrastructure is important - I agree. But this is something that can be upgraded to suit the demands on the network as particular ISPs see fit. It's certainly easier for ISPs to improve their backbone and international connections than it is for them to replace the entire telecommunications infrastructure throughout the country.

You said "I think the rest of the money could've gone on a variety of more beneficial projects for all Australians, ranging from traditional infrastructure through to improvements in Health and Education.". This way of talking makes it sound as though the NBN is part of the budget stealing resources from other areas but this isn't the case. Since the NBN is forecast to make a return it's not counted as part of the budget and so it's not the case that funds that would have been spent on health or education are now being diverted away to the NBN. Improving health and education is a desirable goal that we can all agree on. However one of the key arguements for progressing with NBN is the improvements it will allow in the eduction and health sectors.

BradCubeBradCube February 29th, 2012
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Hey guys,

Firstly thanks for no personal attacks. Been a while since i posted because i just got so sick of people playing the man rather than the argument. It's a nice bit of fresh air to have an honest discussion/debate on a topic :)

So my main argument for this surround this constant conception of the NBN being cost-neutral and a very large investment and therefore the total impact on the governments ability to deliver over a range of portfolios.

So a couple of points:

The forecast actually does matter quite a lot. Assuming net capital expenditure of exactly $30 billion dollars (chosen because it's within ballpark of the forecast and because it gives nice numbers to work with). So to fully repay the $30 billion including interest payments equally over this time period then it would require a monthly repayment of 0.6653% which equates to a monthly repayment of $200 million dollars. (Or a minimum net profit of approximately $10 per person per month). Now lets say that financial conditions aren't so perfect, or more people opt for the basic services instead of higher premium ones. Or that more people switch to future wireless technologies, or just don't use a home internet connection. Whatever the reasons, lets now assume that the government will only be able to repay $175 million dollars a month. This means they're still bringing in (on average) 87.5% of the forecast amount. With this small change in earnings, after 30 years of repayments the government would still have a debt for the NBN of $30 billion dollars. That's right, with such a small change in the forecast we can have MASSIVE financial recriminations for the federal government (and ultimately taxpayers) over the forward estimates. My point was that the public service has had a history of overestimating growth, and if there's even a small overestimation of the earning capacity of the NBN we could be in for a large bill.

Now that's all be delving into the possibility of cost overruns. Now i'm not yelling and screaming about project blow outs. As has been pointed out there hasn't really been any major problems (despite rumblings at different times) with cost blow outs. That being said, the most likely point in time for that to occur i would think would be during the most expansive point of their roll out. When labour costs are likely to be put under pressure and could potentially (not necessarily) blow out. A blowout of total construction costs to 34.2 billion dollars (from the 30 billion starting figure) even with a $200 million dollar per month repayment, would still equate to a debt after 30 years of approximately $34 billion dollars.

So combine these two factors and it's obvious that if these guys have gotten their numbers even slightly wrong, and the NBN could cost the nation a lot of money over a VERY protracted period. The only way to eventually fix such a situation is to either rapidly increase the revenues of the NBN (increase the costs of the plans) or to cut other services of government (or raise taxes) to pay off the debt from other means. So it's not as simply as the NBN will pay for itself.

Please note i'm not being critical in itself of the actual government (or public service for that matter). What i'm saying is that it can be very hard to forecast such predictions for so far into the future and thus even a small error in itself, can have large consequences, especially when you're dealing with debts. I also find it interesting that so many people seem happy to accept the government on their word when it comes to money instead of doing their own investigations into the numbers (boring as it can be at times, even for someone interested in numbers). I know i'd never trust the numbers a bank gave me as to how much money i could borrow. I would always do my own double checks, and whilst i can directly control the government from spending on projects that i do/don't agree with, i still like to work it out, because ultimately they're spending my money (as a taxpayer).

Continuing onto copper vs fibre, i understand copper is never going to be as good as fibre (or at least all the research points to such conclusions). However with VDSL technology (already in deployment) maximum speeds over such networks can obtain connections approaching 100Mbps. Now i know everyone will jump with either fibre will go to 1Gbps (and higher eventually) or that that's "Optimal Speeds" & no one gets that. But i read a very interesting paper on a research project by Nokia (i believe, i might be mistaken to the particular company, it was about a year ago) that had obtained a method of improving the speed of a DSL connection further away from the exchange. So it didn't change the maximum speed capable, but instead actually increased the real world speeds of the connections for people like you and me who are far from the exchange. It approached the level of 80-90% of the maximum speed from several km's away. Now this is a research project and they didn't use the same equipment as you and me have got between us and the exchange. However the actual fix was software based and so at least part of the benefits would be transferable to a common connection. So let's take it that up to say 5 km's from the exchange, this system could only ensure 10% of maximum speeds, then combine it with VDSL2 (for the 100Mbps version) and that means that within 5 km's of an exchange (wire wise at least) you could reliably achieve speeds consistent with the proposed entry level of the NBN. If the % improvement was higher in real life, all the better.

The point is that there are many ways that copper technology can still be advanced to provide a better outcome for all residents (not just those that are close to the exchange). It can also provide for most people comparable speeds to entry level NBN products which are the products that most are expected to take up. Mind you that last point might be different if Telstra doesn't introduce a 12 Mbps plan at a later date.

Also on a side note, yes Brad, the file size is approximately in the zone of 500MB-1GB however as i'm sure you're aware during creation they need to send draft versions through, though these are typically low-res and so not bandwidth consuming therefore they're not a real delay. The connection on ADSL for us was basically a dial-up speed (only a little faster), however we're on a high noise line and the software side of ADSL2+ was better able to compensate for this, which is why there has been such an increase in usable speeds. And i was talking from the point of the exchange i'm connected to which is on the fringe of Melbourne, so not a tiny coverage area, but also not large enough (or at least lucky enough) to not be saddled with RIMs.

My point on speeds for me is that it hasn't changed the way i (or for that matter anyone in the household) uses the internet. Whilst i'm sure it'll change over time and increase, such as with 4k vid's as pointed out and probably higher res Video calling may also become more popular, but none of that increases my productivity. None of it, am i ENTITLED to. And in the scheme of improving quality of life, it's pales in significance to other alternatives the money could be better spent on.

When it comes to businesses, people seem to like raising the NBN as a saviour to current problems. However there's a few points here to make. Firstly medium and large sized businesses quite commonly contract a telco (often Telstra) to build fibre out to their premises or relocate to an area already serviced by fibre in order to allow themselves good connections, so they will see no net benefit from an NBN rollout.

Small businesses is where it counts, and as Australia has a very large number of small businesses, it's a valid point except for this. If i'm a limo driver, i'll buy a property for my house with a long enough driveway for the limo. If i own a fruit shop, i'll buy a store that's in a market or shopping centre. It would be wonderful if i could buy my shop down by the sea and yet have trade like i was in the middle of Melbourne or Sydney. Unfortunately though, i have to go with either the place that's best for my business or the place i'd prefer to go. True, business conducted over the internet doesn't have to be located in a specific area (in most instances), however that doesn't mean there aren't optimal places to build your business. Furthermore the general information can be found out, even if specifics are hard to obtain just like all other considerations, do i know if a transport mob will deliver fruit to me at the market? Are they going to charge me more? Will demands on their business rise over time, meaning deliveries over time will become less reliable?

These are the same challenges that other businesses face, so to suddenly exclaim that businesses that conduct over the internet are unfairly disadvantaged because some areas are better for them and some of worse is a bit rich in my opinion. Yes i think we should move towards enabling better internet in more areas but i also think we should improve that green grocers deliveries, making them more efficient and reliable to. Anything to do with business (and life) is full of compromises.

And as a side note, it is possible to invest in the health system and make a return on investment. Most commonly this is done through R & D efforts, be it for drugs or other things, like better hospital beds, or more efficient IT infrastructure that improves patient throughput. In fact in the hospital system, possibly the best form of investment would be investments that will ultimately reduce the overall cost of delivery for the health service. So you're return isn't so much making a profit off the patients but instead making each patient cost you less money to keep healthy, reducing what is predicted to be one of the biggest funding challenges that will come over the next few decades.

So to summarise (i'm hopelessly long-winded i know!):

1- A slight change in the economic forecast of the NBN could create a large liability for the federal government and ultimately taxpayers.
2- Copper still has room for improvement even if it isn't going to be around for ever. The most promising of which is the potential to improve connection speeds of those furtherest away from the exchange.
3- Just because some locations are currently better or worse for internet connection speeds simply proves that internet based businesses are just as affected as other more traditional businesses to the old saying "location, location, location". \
4- Improving access and reliably are admirable aims, but at what cost is it acceptable? (If it was a dollar i don't think anyone could reasonably argue against it).
5- Federal funding is limited (because we don't pay every single cent of our pay to them in taxes), so funding must be prioritised, so where is this funding best spent in order to ensure the greatest improvement for all Australians?
3-

AWYAWY February 29th, 2012
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LOL - i knew i should've copied, ah well. You get the drift.

The only remaining point was that the NBN does provide potential for improvements in health and education. These SAME improvements would happen if you connected every school, and hospital and Medical Clinic to a fibre network. And at this point i hate to point out that hospitals are connected via fibre (at least city and region centres, don't quote me for rural, i'm not informed on them). So those "major benefits" could be achieved by a much more limited fibre roll-out.

AWYAWY February 29th, 2012
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Seems once again the argument is being bogged down by short-sighted conservatism/$'s, imo.

In answer to your points above AWY...

1. That goes across the board to all spending, governmental or otherwise. I things get so bad that one of the best performing economies in the world , our's, is down and out, then we will have more to worry about than just the NBN.

2.Because copper is incapable and superseded, why the hell would we want to keep flogging that dead horse?. Buying a 20Mbps plan and receiving just 4 or 5Mbps, demonstrates this clearly. Would you accept this anywhere else? Buy Kilo of potatos and get 300g. A pair of shoes and get one?

Sure due to "other limitations" fibre may not obtain actual optimum speeds either, but they will be very much closer to.

Plus the copper is degraded and needs either costly maintenance or replacement in many areas.

3. Some people "do not" have modern availability to such networks, even in urban areas.

4. Fibre networks are being rolled out worldwide, this isn't just us. Do you think everyone everywhere is wrong to invest in such networks? Or is it just the ideology of "government built"? Thing is here, the private sector have not and will not invest in unprofitable areas, unless they are subsidised. So why not just use that money to build for the people instead of giving it to companies for them and their shareholders to reap the benefits?

Building infrastructure IS part of what governmnets are for and no one seems to argue with hospitals, roads or schools which have no ROI? Just the NBN. It's not some commie plot.

Funding is limited. Which is why the NBN is being funded by bonds, securities, etc and not from general taxation.

BetaBeta February 29th, 2012
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Yeah, its nice when you get no personal attacks with such divisive topics as this. Sometimes its just trolls looking for trouble, other times its people with history with each other, like Beta versus.... well, Beta versus just about every anti-NBN :p

On forecasting, I still stand by my statement that its not as relevant as people think. At the end of the day, if it takes a little longer to pay off, it takes a little longer. But its still paid off. Funding is limited to a point, but this is as effective a way to minimise public cost that I've seen. For a roughly $3b outlay per year, you'll be getting $3.5b to $4b of that back per year before the project is finished. Pure guess there by the way, its jut to emphasise that money will be rolling in by the end, which will subsidise the latter part of the rollout. And with NBN being the only wholesale player in town, every person wanting internet will be a part of it. Except wireless, more on that later.

End of the day, it is still a major step forwards, and replaces a technology thats at the end of its life cycle. Copper.

As I said below, I have a sibling that helped develop all of this. Talking to her for even 5 minutes can explain why copper has to go. Sure, it might have another tech generation or two before its time is completely up, and sure, there are methods to extend to 100 Mbps, but they are still limited methods, and still just delaying the inevitable. Cars from the 1950's can still do the speed limit, but they are hardly as efficient as a modern car in doing so.

In the very simplest terms, its speed of sound vs speed of light. While copper can match fibre right now, thats only because copper is in 5th gear while fibre hasnt gotten out of first. Once they figure out how to get more speed out of fibre, the sky's the limit.

But we all know this. The argument seems to have moved on from whether fibre is progressive, to whether its cost effective. And from that regard, I challenge anyone to come up with a way that upgrades our telecommunications as completely.

FTTN doesnt, nor does wireless. FTTN still has that last mile limitation from the node to the property, which is a limiting factor. Wireless has to compete, not only with other potential signals taking up bandwidth, but with the volume of people in a specific area.

You can have the fastest train in the world, but if it can only move 10,000 people an hour, its useless if there are 20,000 people needing to move.

These are my views. I dont expect others to agree or disagree, but as a techhead, I cant see any other way that can be done as effectively. If you leave it to private enterprise, then they will leave it as long as possible to implement a fibre solution, and leave the dregs behind.

The only reason ISP's have rolled out fibre up until now is to position themselves better for the NBN, with the exception of TransACT. We have a unique situation here, so need a unique solution. If its not done through public channels, you run a real risk of only getting half a solution. This is proven business fact - why would they invest in areas they wont get a return on? Thats no good for the bottom line the shareholders crave for.

GavGav February 29th, 2012
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Rest assured Gav, if just one of them had a common sense argument of substance I would bow out...

Which is why I am here and will remain...LOL!

BetaBeta February 29th, 2012
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The point with the numbers i presented earlier gav was that even a small change in the financials of the project, would ultimately lead to the NBN never repaying itself. Not delaying the repayment, or meaning it takes twice as long to recover but actually making it never pay itself off. So the forecasts and their accuracy are very important because $25 million different in income or a small (at least by government standards) blowout of building costs, or a combination of the two, would result in the difference of repaying the $30billion + debt or having forever more a debt of $30 billion + that will be accruing interest and costing this nation future infrastructure spending.

I'm not trying to come up with a way to do a complete upgrade of the Telecommunications systems because as it stands, there is no need for a complete upgrade. Continued evolutionary steps of the copper system would see to our needs for quite a while. When the time came that it was necessary for upgrades, either fibre (or some alternative future transmission system) would probably be the infrastructure of choice.

An example of an alternative would be a method based on quantum communications. My understanding is very limited (so anyone with further in-depth knowledge would be greatly appreciated), but these systems are theoretically unhackable from the point of view that if you intercept, you destroy the transmission, so you can't secretly snoop. These systems may or may not be compatible with fibre infrastructure (i don't know enough to claim they are or aren't), however if they're not, and they become available in 10-15 years, it's possible that by extending the lifetime of copper (for the majority) and doing just the upgrades needed to stay a little ahead of what we require, then it's entirely possible that we could skip an entire segment of infrastructure that whilst would be amazingly fast at that time, would be considered as "disgusting and outrageous" then, as copper is today.

The problem with the statement that the private sector hasn't invested in fibre because they can't obtain a return on investment, is that it is contradictory to the view that the government would be able to generate a commercial return on investment. One or other argument has to be correct for the present day.

Beta- I do not appreciate personal attacks, and whilst they are included in your posts, i will not engage in such discussions.

AWYAWY February 29th, 2012
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Personal, LOL...AWY.

If you take exception to my claim of short-sightedness and conservatism/$'s... I'm so sorry if my offended you :/, but as I clearly mentioned, that was my opinion and that's exactly what these discussions are for "opinions", whether you like my opinion or not.

So to business. We'll overlook the repeated waffle in your first 3 paragraphs (btw - that's not intended to be personal either, it's just my thoughts of an idea to evolve obsolete copper being about as ridiculous as any I have heard)... so let's go straight to this...

"The problem with the statement that the private sector hasn't invested in fibre because they can't obtain a return on investment, is that it is contradictory to the view that the government would be able to generate a commercial return on investment. One or other argument has to be correct for the present day".

Incorrect.

The government are not looking for a Telstra-like return, they are looking at 7% which gives a fair ROI and affordable prices. More importantly, this includes cross-subsidisation of "unprofitable areas" by the profitable areas. Whereas, the private sector will want maximum profit from all locations and if that isn't possible they will not invest in those unprofitable areas.

Otherwise, they would have already and we wouldn't need an NBN would we! Surely this is obvious?

Feel free to reply or not AWY because frankly I have heard it all and debunked it all before anyway...!

BetaBeta February 29th, 2012
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My point exactly:
The government is cross subsidising and still managing a 7% ROI, which means there are areas with much higher ROI percentages, which would be plenty good enough for a company like Telstra or Optus. And yet... they're not?

AWYAWY February 29th, 2012
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Thank you for replying and thus admitting my comment "not" personal after all.

The point you ignore is, higher than 7%, is still not sufficient. They want maximum ROI. I believe Telstra was wanting 18% on their FTTN proposal from mid 2000 (iirc).

This is simply why they will not invest.

So without cross-subsidisation or hefty handouts (oops official governmental subsidies) those in unprofitable area (not me btw) will simply continue to miss out.

You can try to twist and turn it to suit the agenda, all you like, but everyone knows this. Even the opposition, who are also looking at cross-subsidisation and of course, wasteful subsidies.

BetaBeta March 1st, 2012
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Thanks for your detailed reply AWY :)

You seem to have consolidated the issues concerned pretty well into your 6 points so I'll just respond to them.

1. "A slight change in the economic forecast of the NBN could create a large liability for the federal government and ultimately taxpayers. "

- This is true, but also true for any investment governments make. All investments come with some risk, but this in itself shoudln't paralyze us from moving forward with them. I guess it's a matter of deciding whether those the risks are reasonable.

- You provided a worst case scenario of the NBN recovering 175mil per month and stated that even after 30years the NBN would still owe 30 billion dollars. I'm a little confused on the maths on this one - we're you factoring in some hidden interest? 175mil x 12months x 30years = 63000 million or 63 billion. Did I miss something? Even on 15 years at 175 million per month we end up at 31.5 billion?

- You will be pleased to know that NBN Co. are being fairly conservative in their estimates of uptake and speed demands when compared to past trends. Take a look at page 128 on their corporate plan. (http://www.nbnco.com.au/assets/documents/nbn-co-3-year-gbe-corporate-plan-final-17-dec-10.pdf). Actually the whole sections 9 (Revenue Forecasts), 10 (Financial Forecasts) and 11 (Funding NBN Co) all make for a good read if you have the time. I've only briefly read over them but can see that a lot of these sorts of funding questions seem to have better answers in that document than anywhere else. I plan on familiarizing myself much more with the document over the next couple of days.

2. "Copper still has room for improvement even if it isn't going to be around for ever. The most promising of which is the potential to improve connection speeds of those furtherest away from the exchange."

- You mentioned that there may be ways to increase both the speed and decrease the speed/distance ratio. It would be good to see the research on this for interests sake, but even then I still don't think the compromise is worth it. As you yourself have agreed, "copper is never going be as good as fibre", and this is in terms of both speed and distance.

Whilst there may be ways to squeeze more out of the copper we currently have, we are still avoiding the enivitable. If we know the end-game is a FTTH connection then why not bite the bullet and avoid spending money on stop gap measures? This is the same reason I have a problem with the Coalition's FTTN plan - In 10-20 years time we will need to rip all the Nodes up and install FTTH anyway.

- Perhaps you might respond that in 10-20 years, Fibre could be superseded by some other technology. Peter Ferris (Executive GM, Planning & Design at NBN Co) does a great talk about that here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz7LKXl0PbY

3. "Just because some locations are currently better or worse for internet connection speeds simply proves that internet based businesses are just as affected as other more traditional businesses to the old saying "location, location, location"".

Sure, location is important to some extent, but surely improving competitive ability of smaller businesses is an admirable goal? Smaller businesses especially cannot necessarily afford to purchase a business location that is ideal in everyway. If internet speed is one less thing they need to worry about - the more power they have to focus on other key factors of business location (parking, proximity to clients, visability, rooms etc).

4. "Improving access and reliably are admirable aims, but at what cost is it acceptable? (If it was a dollar i don't think anyone could reasonably argue against it)."

- Good news then, it's not even $1! In fact if you wait for 15 years, it will repay you money ;). I'm saying this a little tongue in cheek of course since you seem concerned about the ability for the NBN to repay itself, but the point remains that it's not planned to cost anything but time in the long run. I accept that we don't know the future, but that sword slices two ways - things could go a lot better than the predictions of NBN Co.

- Additionally, retail plans (aside from Telstra) in almost every case appear to be better value than ADSL counterparts (usally both in regard to speed and quota). This means that taxpayers will potentially be saving money every month on their internet and telephony bills.

5. "Federal funding is limited (because we don't pay every single cent of our pay to them in taxes), so funding must be prioritised, so where is this funding best spent in order to ensure the greatest improvement for all Australians?"

Ignoring the predictions that the NBN will be cost neautral, I think the NBN itself would be a fantastic investment to improve lives for the greatest amount of Australians. Think of the length of time the NBN will affect people for. It will be the backbone of information for multiple generations of Australians. Honestly it's hard for me to think of something which would affect more Australians since rollout is intended to hit 100% of the population - there aren't many investments which could claim the same. Perhaps things like medicare? I probably sound like I'm talking with glazed eyes, but when talking of greatest investments, communications infrastructure ranks pretty highly for me.

6. "The NBN does provide potential for improvements in health and education. These SAME improvements would happen if you connected every school, and hospital and Medical Clinic to a fibre network"

- In some ways this is true - many of the benefits to health and education could be realised this way. However, the NBN isn't created soley for health and education improvements (ie business, personal use etc). Additionally, only connecting schools and hospitals wouldn't allow us to realise the full benifits to health and education - things such as education and medical attention from home would still be hard to achieve (though perhaps possible in a more limited way).

BradCubeBradCube March 2nd, 2012
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AWY, you said:

"a monthly repayment of 0.6653% which equates to a monthly repayment of $200 million dollars. (Or a minimum net profit of approximately $10 per person per month)."

You are incorrect in assuming the NBN is being paid for by just the home users. Much of the NBN will be paid for by business and government departments while delivering them massive savings over current Telco prices. Please re-run the numbers with business factored in, it's a nice surprise.

VDSL needs more than one copper pair to get high speeds past the corner, and even then it's nowhere near 3kms. In Japan where the population is densely packed and VDSL available, people are moving to FTTH in big numbers and copper is well into it's decline.

Copper might be enough for you today but not for many. It served us best it could; but copper, it's time go. The Govt. had only two choices for a fibre build, NBN or Telstra...and I'm glad they went with NBN.

rocketfirerocketfire March 3rd, 2012
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+1

BetaBeta March 3rd, 2012
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Gee man your numbers don't seem to make sense but for such a long post, life is too short. In any case, it took 50 odd years to pay off the Sydney Harbor Bridge and there was never any thought of reprocessing it.

GoldieGoldie March 28th, 2012
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Now that you have completed Economics 101, You should probably look at unit 102. In it we learn that Australia's debt per capita is miniscule by world standards, and that borrowing to build infrastructure is actually a positive thing (as opposed to borrowing so people can spend $900 each on Chinese manufactured flatscreen tv's)

DisloyalPragmatistDisloyalPragmatist March 23rd, 2012
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DSL, is distance from exchange discrimination, the further from the exchange the lower your speed. Speed also depends on the number of users on line at any time, speeds slow if there is a high takeup of DSL on your 600 pair cable, if all users on a 600 pair cable are on line at the same time speeds will drop to zilch. DSL is reliant on moderate uptake and moderate usage, it fails if everybody has it and every body uses it. I can be expected that quality of DSL services will fall over time as more subscribers enter and the service is used more.
Use of internet is doubling each year so within 2-3 years DSL will be at capacity everywhere.

Kevin CobleyKevin Cobley February 28th, 2012
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Telstra can put out any silly plan at this time. With so few able to connect via Nbn those plans really mean nothing.

DoubtDoubt February 28th, 2012
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Anyone who signs up for Telstra's NBN is a mug and that's it, just like those who still pay Telstra's exorbitant prices for STD and overseas calls while VoIP has been available for years.

ozimarcoozimarco February 28th, 2012
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Yep agree!

DoubtDoubt February 28th, 2012
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I know this might not be the forum for this topic but after reading the DT story on Abbotts parental leave scheme I posted my view which I dont expect to be published so I though that I would drop it here also since there is a string to the current story on NBN costing. Please humor me at least. "This is from the guy who tells us that the NBN. (A NATION BUILDING PIECE OF INFRASTRUCTURE) at 35 billion over 8 years which will eventually pay for itself whith 7% interest is a waste of money, yet he proposes a scheme which enables people to do nothing at a cost of 6 billion a year based on the more you earn the more you get, WTF, where did this guy get his economic credentials. I know the incumbent government have their problems but if this is the alternative then this country is headed for the outhouse faster than Greece." I believe this good evidence as to why the coallitions policies and priorities as to what is good for this country are a disaster waiting to happen. For the argument, I raised my family successfully without a cent from the Federal government at the time whilst on a moderate income so why should we be wasting money if we change government on a scheme that only benefits the well off when they are dismantling the best piece of infrastructure investment this country has started since the Snowy scheme.

BoomerMMWBoomerMMW February 29th, 2012
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Boomer, the reason for the parental leave scheme is to increase the birth rate in the country. The biggest economic disaster looming for this country is an ageing average population. Without it, a smaller tax base will get taxed harder! Is that what you'd prefer?

mwil19mwil19 February 29th, 2012
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mwil19: We have always been faced with an ageing population, for each generation it has always been a looming economic disaster, the amount of ageing citizens of this country has always been proportianate to the taxpayer base so why all of a sudden has this become an issue for the current generation of taxpayers, perhaps you dont want the responsibility for the cost of raising your families and providing for the people who raised you and paid taxes for their lifetimes. As I alluded to the good people on this forum my argument was not about the responsibility of each generation to pay for its forerunners but to point out the hypocrcacy of the opposition that would rather waste billions on a parental leave scheme that would mainly benefit the already wealthy but add nothing to the economy in the long term yet at the same time having policies that would quite happily tear down the first bit of nation building infrastructure that this country has embarked on for decades. Had my forebears had the same attitude that you have such nation building programs such as the Snowy Scheme would never have been built, and just to point out to you at that time there was no such thing as parental leave schemes or any goverment support for families whatsoever, my forebears managed quite well and managed to produce my generation THE BABY BOOMERS who were the generation that put this country on the map and enabled many of the rights, privileges and technology that you enjoy today.

BoomerMMWBoomerMMW February 29th, 2012
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Your argument would be sound IF the % of ageing remained stable against the taxable base. Simple fact of the matter is it hasn't. That's why Keating implemented Superannuation, that's why the Libs are suggesting policies to increase the birthrate.

mwil19mwil19 February 29th, 2012
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Your right in this, in that it's designed to increase the birth rate to maintain or increase the tax base. I feel they are all wrong though in the whole "we need more people" response to the problem. Unless we can figure out a way to be HUGELY more efficient with our water resources while still preserving the environment AND increase food production (DO NOT say "just import it". food security is going to become an enormous issue) this country can't afford to grow much beyond our current size. Increasing the population is an unsustainable "solution" to the issue of aging population. What we're likely to need to do is to increase the retirement age and completely redesign health care to be more preventative than treatment oriented so it costs vastly less than it does now.

ddoodyddoody February 29th, 2012
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I agree with you ddoody, as our age expectancy increases so should our right to be able to continue to contribute to our countries well being if that is our choice and our ability, we cannot sustain an ever growing population especially one that is based on immigration that does not want to extend itself outside of our major population centres. Good healthcare is based around the preventative rather than the curative, simple things such as exercise, moderation in things that may be harmfull such as alcohol, smoking, junk food etc will all help, dont give up things you like just do it in moderation will help your longevity but keeping working if you want to is also beneficiall and at the same time you are being productive and taking care of your own needs. The younger generations should also be aware that although there are things that we can do to extend our working lives it is also their responsibility to pay tax for the care of their parents in retirement just as they have done for their parents etc, they should think themselves lucky that most of the Baby Boomer generation actually would prefer to have longer working careers than our parents did, after all, it was almost mandatory retirement at 55 and then on the government purse. I can think about retirement at 66 and my wife at 68 and going by the standard life expectancy in retirement of 12 years thats better than the 18 to 22 years that we pay out of our own pockets for our children to make their way into society. Oh and as I alluded to at the beginning of this thread, we did not get nor need government handouts to raise our families and nor did our parents and they worked overtime to boost the population, it was after all for them the time of the Baby Boom, families of 6 to 8 kids was the norm they did not need financial encouragement however the ethic of populate or perish was a good motivator.

BoomerMMWBoomerMMW February 29th, 2012
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mwil19, we have the 'boat people' to fix that problem :)

GoldieGoldie March 28th, 2012
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Most IT people I speak to just don't get the need for the NBN, it simply can't be rationalised - maybe it’s just part of a stimulus program that was hatched and therefor doesn't need justifying at all.
At the end of the day it seems most Australians don't need it or don't want it - if they do sign up - they will be getting nothing more than what they can already get from existing means.
So, I can only conclude that the tiny number super users that will actually pay for and use the promised bandwidth will be massively subsidised by a duped government - who were convince of the mysterious logic of all of this by big business wanting to source the billions to drive their expanding growth requirements.
BTW: when the government is duped - we are all duped - but if I'm not stupid - if I’m going pay 10's of thousand for the NBN out of my taxes - I will damn-well use it! As a super user myself - I will be the recipient of the mindless investment which has been made and drive the Rolls-Royce I don’t really need.

Yours,
A big business IT Exec

WhyWhy February 29th, 2012
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Interesting... A big business IT Exec who doesn't understand the need for faster broadband to all Australians. Have you run that past your CEO? I'm sure he/she would take that on board!!

By the way, I want it. So I can run an IT business from my home. In my mind the possibilities are endless. Perhaps I should talk to your CEO?

omegaomega February 29th, 2012
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Hi Omega -
Actually - I do understand the need for improvement on all fronts - the big question doesn't sit in the how fast, but in the "who", if we truly want to move Australia forward we need to lower the barriers to access.
Spend money on ensuring everyone can have access to the facilities - not simply giving the option to pay for it - we have that (in the most part) already.
To be a true success we need access to the NBN to be cheap and even free to some.
If it is to be justified by speed - then everyone should be able to have that speed - not just the privileged few who can afford the premium plans.
if at the end of the day the majority of Australian homes opt out or opt for a slow plan - then it has failed, it can't pay back its investment and we will have made a bad decision as a country.

Unfortunately even if every household in Australia took up the NBN it is still pretty unlikely to ever pay itself back out of the profits - but many don't seem to care about that when looking at their personal gain.

Australia can't afford to make too many mistakes - a glance at Europe's mess is a lesson for us all.

WhyWhy February 29th, 2012
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"Unfortunately even if every household in Australia took up the NBN it is still pretty unlikely to ever pay itself back out of the profits - but many don't seem to care about that when looking at their personal gain".

Can you substantiate this claim, with projected figures suggesting this? If not it's nothing but FUD!

Because it is projected (as is the case with every business, investment etc) that the NBN will receive a 7% ROI and will be repaid by 2034.

BetaBeta February 29th, 2012
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The NBN isn't being paid for by just home users.

Do your numbers again but include all the businesses (small and large) that will use (and thus contribute to) the NBN because it delivers them massive savings, then throw in all the Govt. departments and do the numbers again.

rocketfirerocketfire March 3rd, 2012
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I see this all the time and just dont get it. To counter what you see, EVERY IT person I speak to cant wait for NBN, can see the immediate benefits, and can understand how private enterprise isnt the answer.

I have a sibling that helped develop both VOIP and ADSL2, amongst other things, and lectures electronic engineering, so I'm not coming from some ill informed background either.

Not saying what you see is incorrect, far from it. It pops up far to often to not be truth, but it always surprises me that the feelings are so polarised. There is obviously one group that just dont see a need, and just as obviously a group that does. Yet theres no middle ground.

For those people I know that dont want or understand it, it usually only takes a few minutes to clear up the misinformation they are usually working from (costing $50 billion for example, when the final bill will be $0), and they mostly change their minds.

Just on one point though, and this is one I try to point out to most people, but the part about getting nothing more than what they currently have is both true, and false.

I have what should be a 24 Mbps connection, yet am happy to get 6 Mbps. NBN is AT LEAST 12 Mbps, or twice what I'm getting. So yes, potentially I'm currently enjoying twice the speed of the lowest NBN speed, but in reality I'll be getting at least twice. Big difference between "up to" connections we have now, and "at least" connection speeds the NBN has to deliver.

But thats now. What about 5 or 10 years from now? 10 years ago, we were mostly on dialup, with ISP's dragging their feet into the broadband market. At the time, people cried from the mountains that their dialup speed was enough, but could those same people go back to dialup now? Hardly.

And for me, that is enough to trust that such an upgrade to telecommunications that the NBN represents is a good step towards our future needs. If we dont start now, it just gets more expensive when we're forced to do the same thing.

What would the public say if we waited 5 years and it ended up costing $100 billion?

GavGav February 29th, 2012
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Just a quick point about the theme of dialup-adsl-fibre. The point that because people on adsl wouldn't be able to go back to dial-up doesn't give a reason to go to fibre. I understand the eventual argument, once you've been on fibre, you wouldn't be able to usably go back to adsl. This however is extrapolation, so could be accurate or wildly inaccurate. It's something you can predict and so shouldn't rely on.

An example is airlines and their planes. Since the aeroplanes were invented we've been moving towards bigger and more importantly to many FASTER planes. When commercial airlines were created it was especially true. And at each stage (like your example) it was proved correct, until the concord it is. The concord was the fastest commercial plane when launched (and would still happily glide past most modern day planes if still in operation) however despite being "the future" and a visionary investment from both the British and French, it ultimately failed. The people who had flown concord will happily fly on the modern day aircraft and the average person never benefited from the concord, even though it was touted to be a major improvement for businesses because of reduced travel times.

It ended up being a massive cost to both the French and British and ultimately set them back in many other aspects of funding for quite some time. Despite all the previous history showing faster was better and that it'd be good for business, it did not turn out as such.

My point being that to say there would be advancements following on from fibre is definitely true, however to quantify them is impossible. And when you RELY on something like that as a foundation argument, you are far more likely to be disappointed than not.

AWYAWY February 29th, 2012
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Hardware technology aside, I think Gav also trusts that the constant increase in data speeds is enough reason for this infrastructure.

Your point is not valid when you look at the trend of average data usage, in that unless there is a nuclear war, it is safe to presume that average data usage will increase at current rates. There is no credible reason to disagree with this.

Fibre is capable of several TB/s. This should do us for a few years to come as far as hardware is concerned.

omegaomega February 29th, 2012
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Data Usage would in this instance i believe be more valid to talk backhaul and international bandwidth. Both need expansion if the current system is to continue to grow. The most cost-effective method is the deployment of fibre for these needs. I'm not arguing that point, however the NBN is aiming to bring fibre to every household.

Following a little quick online research, i just found an article referencing ACMA that the average amount of downloads per month is 6GB. (Note- Average!) I also found a study that said that the average download speed in Australia is 348Kbps including slower speed limited plans, like those on ADSL 1. So some quick maths suggests we can download (on average) roughly 3.6GB per DAY. So assuming no one downloaded anything whilst we're asleep (which we know is not true) and accounting for further growth in data requirements, the average user's copper connection is well placed to allow for many years of growth without anyone upgrading to a higher speed plan or improvements in the copper network.

So there is spare capacity in the copper network for higher volumes (on an average basis) of data, whilst the backbone and international connections are what would need upgrades. With two new connections opening up over the next few years, it would appear that the private sector is aware of this future demand. The government could obviously also help out in the locations it would feel needed more backing.

And boomber, the aircraft analogy means to say you can't justify the capital expenditure based on that one argument. Especially as it's an argument over the speed of development. Copper can be developed beyond what we have currently available in Australia and considering those stats above (which were from last year) it shows that whilst we're beyond (on average) what would be provided to us by dial-up, we are not even close to saturating an ADSL 1 connection, let alone an ADSL 2 connection. So the only variable being the speed of the connection, which as i pointed out earlier with already developed technology we can achieve at the least a similar result to the base fibre plan, why spend (and RISK) so much money, when we can take a slower progression, rolling out fibre to new developments, improving copper for current establishments, increasing our connection ability to the rest of the internet (overseas) to ensure we're not left behind and in the meantime spend the money on other investments that would have a greater effect on our quality of life.

AWYAWY February 29th, 2012
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How are you accounting for further growth? What model are you using? The article below shows the US congress are concerned about future data speeds.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/08/05/how-fast-will-your-internet-be-in-2020.html

It is easy to underestimate using averages as Australia has a small population. We also need to look at what the rest of the world are doing.

As far as backhaul goes, you should visit the CUDOS website which is a research team at the Uni of Sydney. They are well on their way to releasing a network switch based on optics rather than electricity. They have tested it at 1 TB/s. This is compounded though by the fact that you can connect fibre directly to it instead of using converters which use a lot of energy and are slow. Once this hardware is in place, it will open up new methods of programming apps as the speeds offered will be taken advantage of. One technology that springs to mind is Kinect for the XBox. If we start controlling apps via gestures, data speeds with be significantly faster.

omegaomega February 29th, 2012
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Omega, i'm not a statistician or someone who creates models (i don't even know if they have a specific job title for that, but i'm aware of my weaknesses).

The point resides that you currently with no further advancement of current technologies or uptake of faster currently available technologies (ie- someone on dial up or ADSL moving to ADSL2+) then we currently have approximately 15x the bandwidth we require. Even assuming that we double our network usage every 2 years then we have around 7-8 years. Now based off the fact that ADSL started in Australia in 2000 (Correct me if i'm wrong) and that it's gone through 3 iterations (Adsl 1 , Adsl 2 & Adsl 2+) combine with the fact there are two further standards of dsl that are already deployed (vdsl & vdsl 2) and you can see that within the time frame allowed we should have increased the total bandwidth available through copper, and at a lower investment cost. Beyond that we would then know if copper was advancing even further and able to continue providing services, or if not then at that stage we would have time and spare capacity to allow for a build out of fibre at that time. Allowing the money that we're spending today on the NBN to be used for other more urgent needs for our society.

So i'm not saying our needs aren't growing, i'm not saying we won't end up on fibre one day. What i'm saying is that we don't NEED fibre today. There's no rationale for it seeing as we can already provide services and indeed we've got the ability to increase that supply beyond current levels. When that's no longer the case, or it becomes more cost-effective, that's the time to switch over.

I too have read about the optics switches, and some of them look very promising, even far beyond 1TB/s, but that in itself, is not a reason to upgrade. Also i fail to understand the Xbox reference. As far as i'm aware, the kinect system works locally (as in the processing), so the internet would not have an effect. If you're suggesting that because the local processing & simplified input system speeds up how fast we can interact with the app and therefore it's corresponding data use, that makes sense. However it would be an increase like those we've seen before in the internet and would fall within a properly modelled system of growth.

I agree we need to look at how the rest of the world and goes, but i don't believe we need to be number 1. Looking at the USA as an example, they've set themselves a goal of 100 million connections of 100mbps or greater by 2020. That still leaves 60 million + households with slower connections. So seeing as current copper technology would provide similar speeds (plus room for further improvement), it doesn't seem like the horse has bolted, or even galloped in many developed countries.

AWYAWY February 29th, 2012
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We wont be #1, not aiming to be #1, we're tryingto get away from being 53rd! VDSL is still suffers from the same problems as adsl, noise and distance from the exchange. The point of fibre is more equality for more people, why should I pay $99/mo and get 5mbit, where someone next to the exchange gets 22mbit. I'm sure the same people can't get ADSL now wont be able to get VDSL either. Copper is still corroding, its cost to maintain is increasing.

TiberioTiberio February 29th, 2012
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+1 Tiberio...

BetaBeta February 29th, 2012
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You already do. If you earn $40,000 per year in the centre of one of the major capital cities, you get more for your taxpayer dollar than someone earning $40,000 (and thus paying the same amount of tax) but who lives regionally. You have better roads, better public transport, better education, better health, sometimes better broadband, sometimes worse. So the argument that it'd make it more "fair" is for utopia. And as i explained in another comment on this page, there is technology that has been developed that can significantly equalise the speeds people get from their DSL connections, thus reducing (if not eliminating) the current speed divide. What's more, it's a software implementation, making it very cheap in comparision to billions and billions of dollars. Also remember that the NBN itself still has different speed limitations depending on where you live. Just because most people are in the fibre roll out does not mean there won't be plenty of people who will be left behind by this new system either. Furthermore, those communities are the perfect example of the type of community that would benefit most from all the widely publicised improvements the government keeps trying to explain.

Omega, i forget the exact technology that i read about, but i do remember that it was to be used with phantom DSL. Phantom DSL has been reliably demonstrated in the 100-300 Mbps range and from memory the world record for a copper line network is set with this system at around the 850Mbps range. The particular speed the advancement worked with was 100Mbps as it was the most reliable connection at the time and because it does become progressively harder to implement such a system with higher speeds.

AWYAWY February 29th, 2012
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Your approach seems to one of caution AWY. The fact is your expectations seem to fall in line with the NBN Co's completion of the NBN, being 8-9 years away. I'm unaware of any research going in to transferring data across copper at faster speeds. This seems like a waste of money considering the circumstances.

The Kinect reference implies that currently there are apps being made to interact with individuals across wide area networks (it's true a lot of processing is done locally but the apps naturally become larger due to the amount of scripts necessary and also the simultaneous video transmission). This is demonstrated on the promotional video that is available on the web. It also opens up range of medical and educational applications that can be produced and probably are already?

So, I can understand your view that you believe the money is misplaced but the more you learn about what's out there and the potential of what can improve our lives, leads me to believe that in 8-9 years time when the NBN is complete, we will view people still connected with copper, the same way we view people in third world countries (no disrespect).

I also believe that the benefits from fiber networks will prove that the money is not misplaced and will more than likely solve the problems you view as more important, faster.

omegaomega February 29th, 2012
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Point about not being able to go back to dial up wasnt because it was no longer available (it is), but because it would not be a practical option. 10 years ago, someone just checking email and surfing didnt need more than dialup. But to do the same thing now, you need broadband.

Emails are bigger, web pages arent rationalised for the smaller connection speeds, and connections are shared across more devices. These trends have shown no signs of letting up, if anything, they are accelerating.

Your airplane example is a fair one, but look beyond commercial uses, and you'll find that military uses are finding faster and faster aircraft. Speed is still increasing.

The commercial side is building bigger capacity planes, and thats the residential analogy to FTTP, whereas military use is analogous to business use.

Same airports are used for both, different airplanes are taking off.

GavGav February 29th, 2012
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Paul Keating abolished the free lunch ages ago..

No such thing as...."For those people I know that dont want or understand it, it usually only takes a few minutes to clear up the misinformation they are usually working from (costing $50 billion for example, when the final bill will be $0), and they mostly change their minds."

For the NBN final bill to be $0 would mean that this generation and beyond will foot the big bill which may even grow be 100B.

Vasso MassonicVasso Massonic February 29th, 2012
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No I think it will be closer to a bazillion dollars!!!

And it's us poor tax payers footing the bill who don't even use internet!

omegaomega February 29th, 2012
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Have a read Vasso...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia

BetaBeta February 29th, 2012
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Nice of you to be so selective there Vasso :)

The point I was making was that a big FUD out there is that its costing $50 billion taxpayer dollars. While the taxpayer is funding the building costs, the tax dollars being used are intended to be repayed.

The public still pays, but on a user pays basis, not a $10,000 per house basis, or whatever number people use this week. So the only cost will be interest. Yes, that is still a dollar amount. But its not $50b, which is the point. To use that amount is incredibly deceptive.

The final cost will be a lot closer to $0 in public dollars than the $50b people fear. Whether that final cost is realised in 2025, or 2040 doesnt change that the only cost is a relatively small interest charge.

The other side of the same coin is that for some reason people associate $50b with being an amount being paid in year one. Its not. Its $30b over 10 or so years.

Vary that number either way, its still an amount spread over a lengthy term, and with money coming into the coffers increasing more and more over the years to offset whatever it costs for those years. Year 1, its 100% public moneys. It wont be in year 10.

You're going to have subscribers increasing in volume year after year, and offsetting the costs more and more.

GavGav February 29th, 2012
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GAV,

If you say so, but if you are wrong no point asking God to help

Vasso MassonicVasso Massonic February 29th, 2012
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That's well said Gav.

GoldieGoldie March 28th, 2012
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Although the analogy of aircraft development in the air transportation field is relevant to some degree if you look closely at that development what in fact this development did prove was that while going fast is technically viable the real benefit of aircraft development was the ability to increase the payload of modern aircraft while at the same time increasing the base cruising speed of commercial aircraft. The NBN does both the speed and the capacity extremely well as those of us who are on ADSL 2 or slower can testify, on anything up to ADSL the more carrying capacity that is required of it the slower it goes, the further away from the exchange the slower it goes, a bit like having a fast aircraft but having to fly slower to conserve fuel so that it can complete a longer journey. The NBN may very well be coming across as the Concord of the web but lets not forget it is also the super jumbo with the capacity to carry much more payload for a longer distance and still be very fast.

BoomerMMWBoomerMMW February 29th, 2012
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to compare correctly, if anything, the shift from dialup to adsl would be comapred to boat travel to propellor planes. adsl to fibre would be moving to the jet engine. wireless would be the concord, yes its more convienient with freedom of movement, but at the same time, remains a complementary service not being able to surpass the more economical and superior proven fibre.

TiberioTiberio February 29th, 2012
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The way I see it, the prices are an opening ambit.

After a while market forces will drive them down. These ISPs have a plan but they're not going to show it now.

darylcheshiredarylcheshire February 29th, 2012
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So what will happen with current churn agreements between telcos? Will Telstra customers be able to churn from ADSL to optus without the present 6 week wait?
So many questions. So few answers. thats what I love about the NBN

pgaskinpgaskin February 29th, 2012
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Lots of comments, unfortunately very little discussion about the contents of the blog! As a reluctant Telstra shareholder, I too am disappointed in Telstra's NBN offerings. The cheapest unbundled plan with a headline price of $49.95 turns out to be $80 per month when you add in the compulsory (why?) copper line rental, and $95/month if you amortise the $350 installation charge over the 2-year contract. Turn to the bundled plans and there is nothing between 5Gb and 200Gb - that's a big leap.

But I want to take David Braue to task for claiming that all NBN services are equal. As David rightly states the NBN is an access network - NBN provides layer 1 and 2 services between the user premises and the network POI. Everything else, which means all services at layer 3 and up come from service providers. That's all routing, DNS, DHCP, QOS, email etc. Importantly, it's also all backhaul capacity, which is where congestion often occurs. Any discussion which assumes that all of these factors are absoulutely uniform across all service providers is missing the point. Although it's hard to make any judgments at this early stage, I expect we'll hear more about who is doing what as service providers jostle to differentiate themselves from the competition. The provisioning of adequate routing and backhaul capacity and the expertise to manage it efficiently are important factors. We've seen just recently a major outage that suggests that Dodo's border routers are managed by dodos (but perhaps so too are Telstra's)!

AchillesAchilles March 1st, 2012
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obvious reason for the copper to still be bundled...

telstra gets paid for every customer which it has to switch off a copper service to move onto an NBN service, not if that customer has opted to go with flat out fibre.

seems like common sense to me.

PablosanPablosan March 2nd, 2012
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Pablosan, I don't follow your argument. If Telstra keeps a customer on a copper telephone service they can't decommission that coppoer pair and Telstra doesn't get paid for delivering that customer to NBN - at least that is the way I believe it works. One would expect that there are incentives for Telstra to offer NBN-only services, not NBN PLUS copper!

AchillesAchilles March 3rd, 2012
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Pablosan's post "obvious reason for the copper to still be bundled..."
I would follow the money trail. Telstra get paid for the copper connection until the customer is moved to an NBN service. Then they get paid for the transfer. I have read somewhere it could take up to 18 months before the copper is turned off as each fibre roll out area is completed.
Also Telstra may think if they can keep an NBN connected customer on copper for a while, they would have a customer for life.

GoldieGoldie March 28th, 2012
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Just wanted to say one thing (no, I did not really read ALL the comments above as the thread is very long and I'm working).

For all people arguing copper is good enough and we can squeeze 100Mbps out of it. Great. If this is done, I would be perfectly happy and not always stand on the NBN side of the fence.

BUT

It will NEVER HAPPEN! These people assume we're all attached directly to the exchange. This is SO not the case it's not funny. I'm in a special rural zone 20kms south of Perth. I have the major artery the Kwinana Freeway ON MY ROAD. I have the Tonking Highway, another major artery intersecting my road on the other side. The exchange I'm connected to (indirectly - more on that later) is Forrestdale, which services not only Forrestdale and Oakford, but all the new housing estates of Piara Waters and the Harrisdale estates. The population has exploded immensely over the last 2 years. It is one of the fastest growing regions in WA.

The Forrestdale exchange is full. No more ports. Haven't been any free ports for quite some time. The RIMS are also completely full. We have two RIMS between me and the sub exchange, but no more ADSL available. Because of the RIM I'm on ADSL1.

I consider myself lucky. I won't stretch this rant any further but in this highly populated area, no more ADSL available, even Telstra NextG can barely get a bar of reception (hence no broadband that way), and it's a Vivid dead spot also.

I can guarantee you Telstra will not upgrade the copper in the ground in my area, nor will they build another tower for 3G as I'm right in the middle distance wise to the Forrestdale or Darling Downs towers and they think that's good enough. Oh, and no, the others are no reception at all so not an option.

So my point being. WE CANNOT try to stick with copper as we CANNOT trust Telstra to invest in the infrastructure. They haven't done properly since they were privatised, and they are not going to as long as they have shareholders. They still hold all the cards, it's a monopoly (hopefully a more advantagious one for the other ISPs with the ACCC coming down on wholesale price gouging, and now the finally agreed upon SSU), but this is interim, and I fully believe things will never improve.

Bring on the NBN. Give ISPs the chance to compete on a level playing field (truly level), while being able to provide services on a TRUE, clean, reliable, EXPANDABLE and fast network that isn't tied to Telstra's greed.

That's all.

RamrunnerRamrunner March 2nd, 2012
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Ramrunner, I would like to add to your list of a level playing field.
I think the ACCC should change its position on Points of Interconnect - from 121 to 12. This would truly let the little guy startup an ISP bussiness without having to supply backhaul all over Australia. If not the ACCC, then the change should be moved through Parliament to override the ACCC.
Telstra will have a big enough advantage now with the way it can keep its current customers on long term contracts and move them on to the NBN.

GoldieGoldie March 28th, 2012
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Every telco is trying to sign up home phone subscribers so they can qualify for a bigger slice of the NBN payout. However, with mobile plans including so much call time, there is almost no reason to have a home phone, and our VoIP usage is now almost zero. We have been totally wireless for the last six years.

In the wireless world, Telstra rules because no-one else offers the speeds or the coverage. And LTE 4G offers decent uploads so any small business can use it, whereas ADSLx is practically useless in that regard, and gets lesser speeds when more than a km or so from an exchange.

However, come the NBN, at 100Mbps even at Telstra's prices, we'll be in it!

PatanjaliPatanjali March 4th, 2012
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Gee Patanjali , your post is almost like a Telstra add:) But as this story is about the expense (cost) of the Telstra service on the NBN, I could say the mobile plans and call costs on Telstra mobile seem high to me as well. At $1.20 odd per minute its a bit much for me. My pre paid is only 15 cents per minute. But I am not a big user and only have a Nokia 2 phone.

GoldieGoldie March 28th, 2012
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