Ubuntu, Red Hat reject Microsoft patent deal

Red Hat, the largest Linux vendor, and Ubuntu-maker Canonical have both rejected calls from Microsoft to forge a deal similar to the one the Redmond giant signed with Linux distributors Novell, Xandros, and Linspire.

Mark Shuttleworth, Canonical's CEO, said in a blog posting on Saturday, that Canonical has declined to talk to Microsoft about any agreement that provides legal protection to Ubuntu users related to "unspecified patents".

"Allegations of 'infringement of unspecified patents' carry no weight whatsoever. We don't think they have any legal merit, and they are no incentive for us to work with Microsoft on any of the wonderful things we could do together," he wrote.

Shuttleworth said these patent agreements create "a false sense of security" and do not effectively protect the user from a patent suit from a big company like Microsoft.

Canonical is a commercial company that sponsors free-software projects and provides services for the Ubuntu Linux distribution.

Following Microsoft's wide-ranging deal with Novell last fall, Microsoft in the past month has announced similar deals with Xandros and Linspire. They cover technical interoperability and offer legal indemnification to some customers who use those Linux distributions.

Microsoft has not yet sued any of those companies but has said it has identified 235 Microsoft patents on which Linux infringes.

Last week, Microsoft's general manager of interoperability and standards, Tom Robertson, said Microsoft is eager to extend these types of arrangements to other Linux and open-source companies, calling it an "issue of coexistence".

No deal between Microsoft and leading commercial Linux distributor Red Hat has happened. After the announcement of Microsoft's Novell contract, Red Hat said it would not pay an "innovation tax" to Microsoft.

Red Hat remains unmoved
Red Hat said there would be no such deal. Referring to previous statements distancing itself from Microsoft, the company insisted: "Red Hat's standpoint has not changed."

The company referenced a statement written when Microsoft revealed it was partnering with Novell, saying that its position remained unaltered. Red Hat director of corporate communications Leigh Day added: "We continue to believe that open source and the innovation it represents should not be subject to an unsubstantiated tax that lacks transparency."

Many open-source followers argue that Red Hat, as the largest Linux vendor, would have a lot to lose from partnering with Microsoft.

Ubuntu cold on Microsoft Open XML
In the same blog post, Canonical's Shuttleworth said pursuing technical interoperability between rival document formats Office Open XML and OpenDocument -- included in the other Linux deals -- was not worth the effort. He did say Ubuntu stands to benefit from investments to improve interoperability between Linux and Windows.

"I have no confidence in Microsoft's Open XML specification to deliver a vibrant, competitive and healthy market of multiple implementations. I don't believe that the specifications are good enough, nor that Microsoft will hold itself to the specification when it does not suit the company to do so," Shuttleworth said.

OpenDocument Format, or ODF, is better, and Microsoft should improve its support for that standard, he said.

Shuttleworth did not rule out working with Microsoft in some capacity but made clear that the makeup of its existing Linux partnerships held little interest for Canonical.

"All the deals announced so far strike me as trinkets in exchange for air kisses," he said.

Linspire and Xandros
Microsoft has already made deals with Novell, Linspire and Xandros, but the latter two are much smaller companies.

Linspire will work closely with Microsoft in a number of areas, including instant messaging and Web search. Although Microsoft has said that open source infringes its patents, the software giant has agreed not to sue users of Linspire.

Microsoft's deal with Xandros, a distributor, is based on both technical and legal considerations. They will work on improving interoperability between their servers to improve systems management.

Microsoft's pact with Novell is rather more complex. The two companies are marketing each other's products and are working on product interoperability. Their pact is subject to a series of sales- and patent-related payments worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

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Talkback 22 comments

  1. Has microshaft sued anyone yet really for piracy Adam Nelson -- 19/06/07

    Yes and No.

    Yes there are some instances where PC stores have been sued for selling pirated copies of windows

    However no individual users have been caught for personally pirating windows. The question remains is Microshaft going to go MPAA/RIAA suing style everyone for patient infringement

    No. This is just a deliberate threat and scare campaign thats used by Microsoft to scare the linux distro into signing up. Those whom do could be risking losing the benefit of a married relationship with Microsoft

    Married couples always fight. Thats just a normal relationship

  2. Microsoft's Fear Joel Duckworth -- 19/06/07

    In my opinion, Microsoft have probably had this option up their sleeves for a while. The usability and functionality of Linux is now at such a level that they really see it as a threat to their home user market thus pulled this little trick as a counter-measure.

    I experimented with Linux for a number of years but only in the last 6 months have I found no need to boot Windows. I can do everything I require with ease from my Ubuntu installation. I'd be scared too.

  3. I Left Xandros Anonymous -- 19/06/07

    I was a devoted Xandros user for almost five years, buying all four versions, and Deluxe editions when offered. The Microsoft deal was announced on Monday, and I was running PCLinuxOS on Tuesday. Microsoft is signing up Linux companies to spread the Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) about Linux to scare people away. It's a monopoly trying to maintain their monopoly. They should put that effort toward better products and less hassle and expense for customers.

    I made a funny video about switching to an open source Linux distribution.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8TjLIYxP1A

    1. You left Xandros... was this smart moove? Anonymous -- 20/06/07

      The Microsoft deal was announced on Monday, and I was running PCLinuxOS on Tuesday. >>>>>>>>>
      Could I ask you, what will you run on next Wednesday? How can you be sure that Texstar will not cut a deal with M$? I don't see any problem with these M$&Linux deals - may be miracle happens and I will be able to run Adobe CS3, M$Office with all plugins (like EndNote and Reference ManageR), CorelDraw, MindManager etc. under Linux? That would be really great victory for Linuxes! APPLICATIONS is the real thing which counts!

    2. RE: You left Xandros... was this smart moove Johnny Hughes -- 20/06/07

      well ... he can certainly use CentOS if he wants. Each major release will be around for 7 years from the release date and the CentOS Project will NEVER sign an agreement with Micro$oft.

  4. Terrorism Octoberdan -- 20/06/07

    This is a scare tactic engineered to dislodge user brand loyalty, disrupt the community, and to pit us at each other's throats. *spits in disgust * Keep in mind that the agreement is to provide the users with "legal protection." From what? Meaningless numbers that are supposed to represent scary unspecified patent infringements? And we're supposed to be afraid of being sued just for using software that has supposed infringements that we have zero knowledge of? That's nuts! See how that holds up in courts. Here's how it's supposed to go, the distributors recognize the futility in such a threat and predictably refuse to endanger their user's freedoms, the users are then supposed, to say "Foo inc. isn't protecting me! I could get sued!" and then switch to Windows and a distribution that supports Microsoft. Well that's rubish. We're not Windows users; we're not easily lead to the barn for slaughter, we're LINUX users. So instead I say "F' you Microsoft. You've got the guns, but we've got the numbers."

  5. Commend Redhat and Ubuntu Anonymous -- 20/06/07

    I personally commend both Redhat and Ubuntu for not caving into this craziness with MS. MS hasn't showed or proved anything. I fully support these two distributions and their leaders. And these companies WILL stand to gain the same interoperability that Novell, Linspire and Xandos will develop with MS, since under the GLP modifications to GLP'd code/applications must be shared back (as I understand the license). The only thing the community as a whole won't get is legal codexs and other plugins (e.g. document translators).

    I don't have issue at all with deals involving interoperability, etc., but leave the patent covenants out. I don't believe that the companies have a legal right to provide this coverage through these deals anyway...they did not right or own any of the code. They use it only through the generocity of the GLP and coders and therefore protecting one customer should protect all customers regardless of distribution. Besides with the way the patent situation is, I wonder how many patents MS is infridging from other OS's (harder to assess since they are closed).

    The companies that made these deals (patent) with MS were struggling and probably won't be the survivors anyway. It's only by the money provided by MS through these deals the those companies are able to continue on...at least for now.

    1. Commend Redhat and Ubuntu Anonymous -- 21/06/07

      >>The companies that made these deals (patent) with MS were struggling and probably won't be the survivors anyway. It's only by the money provided by MS through these deals the those companies are able to continue on...at least for now.

      Hmm, if MS uses enough money, they might be able to create a "dependency" among weaker Linux distributors. If they can get a significant number of "junkies" on board, maybe they'll have enough critical mass to start some serious manipulation within the Linux community.

      Microsoft Linux: better than GNU/Linux, because it's enhanced by Microsoft! :-)

      I like what Mark Shuttleworth is saying. Makes me happy to be a Ubuntu user.

    2. Not Closed Source John -- 17/07/07

      Microsoft has global programs in place where government and corporate users have full access to the source code, they just can't change it or distribute it. They have full visibility to all code in the same way they do with any open source product.

  6. Microsoft A Looser! rt -- 20/06/07

    Microsoft is running scared and so they are using care tactic to get small linux developer to sign a deal with them agree Microsoft will not sue them for infringement.

    Hell, I don't think Microsoft really cared cause those who made a deal with them will end up getting sue anyway or force to pay up for any damage that Microsoft sees.

    Ubuntu and Red Hat made the right decision and they will be respect by all open sources community including myself.

    I look forward to the new GPL3 that will soon will be release.

  7. Hail RMS!!! Anonymous -- 20/06/07

    I really appreciate RMS's vision ... man you ROCK!!!! you knew this will happen 20yrs ago and created the GPL1 and then a better GPL2.
    I would like to see the GPL3 soon and it gets accepted by all :D
    You got a real vision, and we/I the Free Software world recognize it.. let GPL3 rock and let not these corporate IDIOTS try to misuse Free Software...

    long live GNU/Linux

    1. I <3 RMS Octoberdan -- 20/06/07

      All hail Saint Ignucius!

  8. Show Their Cards Anonymous -- 20/06/07

    Linux distributors need to find a way to make Microsoft show their cards. If there is any substance to any of the patents, it wouldn't take the OS community long to work up alternatives that do not infringe.

    It seems to me Microsoft wants to keep the details secret until the OS community is somehow backed into a corner. Whose side is time on in this situation?

    1. RE: Show Their Cards Johnny Hughes -- 20/06/07

      Well ... that is not as simple as it seems.

      If you are talking about infringing "CODE" and copyright, then it is easy to rewrite code that can perform the same function without looking at or using copyrighted code.

      Patents on the other hand are different. You patent an idea ... like single click internet purchases. It is not tied to specific code, but the actual thing accomplished. This would be fairly impossible to recode.

      If M$ has a patent that Linux really infringes upon, it would be very hard to accomplish the same thing in a different manner and not infringe the patent,

      That is why software should not even be patentable ...

      The only real way to fix patent issues is to pay for the right to use the patent OR get it overturned (or prove that your process is not really infringing).

      Here is a good place to start on preventing new patents:

      http://www.peertopatent.org/

    2. Re: Show Their Cards Anonymous -- 21/06/07

      You are partly right. A patent is on an idea, but it is supposed to be fairly specific, so while it may not be possible to provide exactly the same functionality without infringing, it may be possible to come up with something equivalent or better that is not infringing. GNU zip (gzip) was developed as an alternative to the patented algorithm in Unix compress, and eventually replaced it (I haven't seen anyone use compress for a long time). And while not as widespread (at least not yet), PNG and Ogg Vorbis has also been developed to avoid infringing on patents in GIF and MP3, respectively. So it is possible to find ways to code around many patents and provide similar functionality.

      Although the fact that any of the ideas have been developed independently one or more times by the Open Source community also means that it is going to be that much harder for Microsoft to avoid having their patents overturned due to obviousness, especially given the new standards provided by the Supreme Court, which is likely part of the reason they refuse to reveal which patents they claim are being infringed. They are very likely well aware that most of the patents would not stand up to a challenge based on obviousness and/or prior art and that Open Source developers would find a way to code around the few that could survive or remove those features. It suits them much better to bully small companies that need or badly want something else from Microsoft than to truly defend their patents.

  9. MS deals suck Anonymous -- 20/06/07

    I too used to use Xandros, but as they have basically gone to bed with the enemy, I have also dropped Xandros, in favor of Red Hat. Pity, as Xandros was/is a good distro, however, I moved to Linux cos I was sick to death of MS. To have MS push their way into Xandros and extract funds from them, SICKENS me to the point, that I no longer will support Xandros, and will reccomend against it to anyone asking about Linux, for precisely the MS deal reason.

    EVERY Linux distro should simply tell MS to go f themselves - they cannot "Prove" anything.

    The fact that these companies have submitted to the deal thing with MS, shows me that they are WEAK.

    We don't want MS getting a hold of anything Linux - could you imagine?!??!(rhetorical)

    Force distros to add about 3,000% to the sell-price, force other restrictions, try to control the Linux code-base, try to legally take possession of the Linux kernel, try to say anything point-and-click in Linux is theirs...

    Etc, etc...

    1. Regarding the Xandros disgrace... Anonymous -- 21/06/07

      Maybe a stupid idea, but couldn't it be possible for m$ to actually achieve this? By adding their spoiled and dirty name aside linux distribution organisations, to make people running away from those distros ? I'm not pointing something that might look as some sort of fantasy conspiracy, but more like some dirty tactics...

      If that is not a fact / planned thing, at least is a result, a nasty result... Linux is not to be abandoned to this plague that m$ has reached to be nowadays.

      I'm using Linux, Kubuntu for development and Ubuntu for entertainment purposes (don't ask :), I personally don't ever wish to hear of windoz crap and i personally laugh to m$ which in my belief is scared the hell out of their arses in the face of what Linux has got to be now. it's a fact, m$'s arse is brown looking at Linux and launches wicked and desperate acts to try stopping the development and use of Linux by putting it's dirty, stinky hands and imposing their same-dirty and even-more-stinky tatctics into the community.

      I've seen some statements that m$ is a business and businesses are started to make money... but thinking at the ways m$ is doing the money, can you stand and agree to it's (m$'s) existance anymore ?

      I am very happy to see m$ in this situation (scared the heck out of it) and am savouring a bottle of fine wine watching it's collapse and agony :D

      Regardless of what they are saying, that Linux is an insignificant dwarf for them, Linux actually now looks at m$ from one head-higher position.

      Let us enjoy the moment of victory upon the truly-greedy and, as demonstrated by them-selves, dirty-player m$. And after that moment, let's carry on and see of our free concepts and development.

      All the best

    2. Novell Finally Dies John -- 17/07/07

      If Microsoft were not pumping money into Novell due to the cross license agreement I believe Novell would have shut up shop by now. It is 50% of the companies revenue stream and probably the only way Novell/SuSe will ever become enterprise ready...tied to the coat tails of Microsoft

  10. Vista and Mac OS x Joel Duckworth -- 20/06/07

    I wonder if Apple patented it's GUI functionality from OS x. They should give Microsoft a taste of their own medicine!

    I mean Widgets / Gadgets COME ON...

    1. Vista and Mac OS x Anonymous -- 21/06/07

      dude, you should know by know that M$ _really_ own apple (as well as some other companies that if revealed will _shock_ you, e.g. sun, avid).

      what? you thought that all these donations to sun or apple were part of bill and melinda's charity?

      come on...

  11. My opinion Anonymous -- 26/06/07

    MS software is built for the sheep of the 21 century. The ignorant and the brainwashed love thier software - let them worship a tyrant. As we all know nature is swift to restore the balance, all you have to do is wait. :-)

  12. Microsoft the big Giant, but giant can fall Anonymous -- 19/02/08

    As you can see in the title, Microsoft is the biggest company of Computer Technologie but they are only seeing the money behind all this, what the Deal with Novell, Linspire, Xandros, means?? THE END OF FREE! So if you a M$ fan then go buy there latest **** called Vista i will stay here siting on in front of my Linux OS (Debian), i will just laugh at you like you where the stupidest guy or Girl on Earth!

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