The real roadblocks to Linux in education

In this issue of Industry Insider, Con Zymaris, our guest columnist from Open Source Industry Australia, describes the major barriers for Linux in the education system.

commentary Linux and open source software have a problem in Australia's education sector.

And that problem has nothing to do with the value-for-money or fitness--for-purpose of the software. It has everything to do with fighting an uphill battle against entrenched ideology and frightened government bureaucrats.

A recent report published by the UK government shows how adopting Linux and other open-source solutions could save education possibly tens of millions of pounds every year.

The UK government's ICT agency, British Educational Communications and Technology Association, suggested that schools could slash their total computer costs by up to 50 percent if they "stopped buying, operating and supporting products from the world's largest software company". Incredible and sobering information.

But what does this mean in the Australian context? Will we see Australia's state departments of education suddenly jump at the chance to save hundreds of millions in computer system costs?

Not likely. But why? The answers lie in intimidation and trepidation. In simple terns, fear and lack of vision.

Here's how it works. Most government primary and secondary schools don't care about saving costs by using cheaper alternatives. You see, they effectively pay nothing for their proprietary software -- the schools' owners, the respective Departments of Education do. And the mandarins therein don't like anything that rocks the boat, and are thus greatly threatened by Free and Open Source Software (FOSS). Nothing rocks an ICT boat like FOSS does.

Which is why you find that in almost all circumstances, the Departments of Education in each state are also the most pro-Microsoft. I've been trying for over two years to make headway with some of them. They tell me that they are scared of doing anything which will upset Microsoft.

Yes ... you read that right. The representatives of our elected government are scared of displeasing a vendor!

If these departments suddenly stopped paying for proprietary software and switched to FOSS, the schools know they won't reap any of the purported savings. So, why would schools bother with trialling FOSS? Where's the incentive?

Additionally, teachers also know that they will need to learn a whole swag of new software, with minimal time and support. Teachers' time and stress levels are at a premium already. Without support from the powers that be, this makes migration away from "the world's largest software company" a hard and thankless task.

The upshot of all this is that every report commending the advantages of FOSS for the education sector falls on deaf, disinterested and frightened ears. This means that unless there is action from the absolute top, there will never be any action. Period.

This is why organisations like Open Source Industry Australia and Linux Australia are talking to [or trying to, at least] each state's Minister of Education, as well as their opposite numbers.

We want the incredible waste of money to be stopped right at the top. And if those discussions don't succeed, then it's time for the talk shows and mainstream newspapers.

I'm sure average Australians would love to learn how Linux and open source can save them -- as taxpayers -- hundreds of millions in software costs ... money which can be spent on something useful for a change. Our schools, teachers and students deserve as much.

biography
Con Zymaris is a Director of Open Source Industry Australia.

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Talkback 76 comments

    "Nothing rocks an ICT boa ...Anonymous -- 13/05/05

    "Nothing rocks an ICT boat like FOSS does."

    So we should throw out all the training invested for less usable software so Cybersource can reap all the benefits? Open Office has its own problems right now, and sorry it just isnt as good Microsoft's offering right now.

    Go fix the code, make it a better product and stop talking about it/using consipracy theories/media for your own agenda.

    OpenOffice.org has problems? ...Anonymous -- 13/05/05

    OpenOffice.org has problems?

    And Microsoft Office doesn't?

    Larf!

    At least OpenOffice.org is FREE dude.

    As far as education is concerneed, OpenOffice.org is more than good enough.

    Anonymous, you say: "So w ...Anonymous -- 13/05/05

    Anonymous,

    you say:

    "So we should throw out all the training invested for less usable software so Cybersource can reap all the benefits?"

    Here are some cluepons for you:

    1) For students, Linux and OpenOfice, SAMBA and Apache are JUST as usable as the expensive Microsoft counterparts.

    2) There are several schools in Australia which have proven this. All of these schools are private schools, thus do not have their hands tied behind their backs by the biased Education Department controlled schools. Google for Strathcona Girls College and Linux to learn more.

    3) Why should Australian Open Source companies get some of the slice the Education IT budget? Why should it ALWAYS be Microsoft Microsoft Microsoft?

    You realise Microsoft sucks out $30 million a year out of our schools? And supporting the buggy and insecure Microsoft products sucks out another $100 million?

    Anonymous, are you a Microsoft employee feeling threatened?

    If so, what a shame!

    Get used to the heat dude.

    This is only the beginning.

    7 years later, and the story happens Anonymous -- 09/05/09 (in reply to #120116869)

    http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16721/1090/1/0/
    The Linux era ended in December 2007. Today all the Linux machines are back to running Windows - actually, a different set of machines as the lease on the old ones ended. There are Macs at the school running both OS X and Windows Vista.

    The IT budget is much bigger now but the school has the money unlike six years ago.

    The reason for the switch back to Microsoft operating systems? A lack of support from some of the teachers, says Perkins.

    Why does free always play part ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    Why does free always play part in why its good. As most business people understand "free" has no intrinsic value, because it requires no investment or cost, therefore no buy in to the "value".

    Things like fit for the purpose, usability, functionality, ease of deployment, ease of securing, ease of management must play a part of the total picture, not just what it didn't cost to buy. As we all know the things outlined here are the real cost when it comes to any application used, not its upfront cost

    We all know that the education sector might as well call all software free as most companies invest so heavily to make it so. So the arguement of free and cheap really aren't what it is all about.

    This is not why Microsoft is better than Open Source or the reverse, just plain logic when you step back, drop the religion and think rationally

    What will the people at the DO ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    What will the people at the DOE think when students in other nations have a better understading of computers and software because they can read the source?

    Can they take the savings and ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    Can they take the savings and use some of it to pay teachers a higher salary?

    You say the Departments of Edu ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    You say the Departments of Education are afraid of Microsoft. What, specifically, are they afraid Microsoft would do if they were to adopt open source software? And are their fears realistic?

    Actually, if the D of E's even expressed an interest in oss, the Microsoft would be sure to repond by offering deep discounts. That is the pattern we have repeatedly seen in similar cases, such as the city of Munich.

    Schools have a <a href=&quo ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    Schools have a <a href="http://computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/windows/story/0,10801,71690,00.html?nlid=PM">very good reason to fear</a> Microsoft.

    Try this on for size: Microsoft or their bully-boys, the BSA (Business Software Alliance), can require the schools to perform - their own cost - a full audit of <b>all</b> their computer systems to demonstrate full license compliance.

    It's one of the minor perks of the terms of MS's sneaky EULA (End User License Agreement) to which the schools have agreed by clicking that "I accept..." button when installing MS Office, etc.

    Microsoft did exactly that in the state of Oregon in the US in 2002 (see link above). Note that many national governments are similarly beholden. I personally believe the implicit threat of an audit (it's cost and the high likelihood that non-compliance will be rife) is what is keeping my country's government firmly attached to the Redmond's ICT teet...

    If you have no Microsoft softw ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    If you have no Microsoft software why would an audit worry you. Once it is removed you are no longer held under their so called magic powers of evil. Of course if you want the fully integrated learning environment you probaly install more components rather then less.

    This has to be the most one si ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    This has to be the most one sided useless article I've read in a long time.

    Schools are responsible for preparing students to go into the work force and be productive. Currently, the majority of software in the work force is Microsoft or some other proprietary software package. It would be a huge diservie to the students to force them into working on something they may never see in their careers.

    The thing schools are afarid of is losing their credibility. If schools are putting people through their programs that cannot perform once they are hired, then employeers won't hire students from those schools. Furthermore, students will start avoiding the school as they know that their chances of getting a good job are limited. Then the school has to change its focus since it is no longer considered a good technical school. There is also the issue of funding from alums and I'm sure Microsoft and other software companies add to the funding for these schols in the form of scholarships.

    Just remember there is no such thing as a free lunch. There is more than just the price of the software at issue here.

    This lot are not afraid http:/ ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    This lot are not afraid http://www.ofset.org/

    This lot are not afraid http://www.gluecode.com/ and they run "The World's Help Desk". I bet they have more employees in Australia than Microsoft does. And more employees with children at Australian schools.

    Broker a deal.

    San Mateo Anonymous, you've mi ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    San Mateo Anonymous, you've misunderstood a key point here. These are *NOT* colleges or universities or technical schools we're talking about here. These are primary and secondary schools. They teach *children*. Thus your whole point about "training students for the workforce" is (if not totally invalid) very much less valid.

    Training students for a job is *NOT* the focus of a primary/secondary school education. If that focus is anywhere, it's in an apprenticeship, technical school or university - where different rules apply.

    Schools are supposed to teach children *how* to write, not how to use a word processor. If students use software in schools, they should not be drilled by rote in using a single vendor's software.

    I know in your country you use the word "school" to refer to primary, secondary *and* tertiary educational instutions, but we don't here. And the distinction should have been quite obvious if you'd actually paid attention to the article you're criticising.

    Re: This has to be the most on ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    Re: This has to be the most one sided useless article I've read in a long time.

    The fair soul who posted this seems to have a rather narrow view of employers. If a child understands key concepts, the vendor/version/flavor of the app du jour matters little. A graphical word processor is not rocket science, thus moving from one version to another is a skill any employee of mine had better be able to demonstrate, lest we be locked into a particular Word/WP/OO version. Save the millions on a brand, and spend it on sport/music/teacher education.

    So, educators might need some ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    So, educators might need some ****istance in learning how to use some new applications...

    What's the FOSS community prepared to offer in the way of ****istance?

    Give the educator a mentor.

    The term and the role is one their community is familiar with.

    Try it. It can be fun.

    If you don't have real underst ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    If you don't have real understanding of problems, just don't write any articles. This one is definitely misleading and full of stupid generalization.

    I work in education sector and use open source software quite a lot {and i really like it :-) Nevertheless it is not true that this software is free. We just do not have to pay for licences. But problem with maintaining and security are at least as time-demanding as for M$. So saving money argument is a nonsense.

    The main thing is quality of education and choice of M$ or open source ir quite irrelevant.

    I'm at the local tafe doing a ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    I'm at the local tafe doing a cert iv in it programming where the main empahise is on vb.net and the teachers who are teaching us have never seemed to used it before so basicly if i want to learn something like c or c++ or any thing more advanced i would do better to buy a book and teach myself how to use it

    To Anonymous in San Mateo > ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    To Anonymous in San Mateo

    >This has to be the most one sided useless article >I've read in a long time.

    So, why bother commenting on it then, eh?

    >Schools are responsible for preparing students to >go into the work force and be productive.

    That's a rather narrow view... the real job of schools is to help prepare students for life, not just the needs of the marketplace.

    >Currently, the majority of software in the work >force is Microsoft or some other proprietary >software package. It would be a huge diservie to >the students to force them into working on >something they may never see in their careers.

    Bull. You sound like an MS shill. A few years ago, it was WordPerfect, now it's Word [insert version here]. what is more important is that the students learn about the capabilities of word processing (and other) software--not the details of just how to operate Brand X.

    >The thing schools are afarid of is losing their >credibility. If schools are putting people >through their programs that cannot perform once >they are hired, then employeers won't hire >students from those schools. Furthermore, >students will start avoiding the school as they >know that their chances of getting a good job are >limited. Then the school has to change its focus >since it is no longer considered a good technical >school.

    We're talking public schools here, not technical schools--there's a fundamental difference. What employers I deal with tell me what they're looking for are people who can think, not ones that are mindlessly trained to click on icon X in program Y.

    The BECTA report (http://www.b ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    The BECTA report (http://www.becta.org.uk/corporate/publications/documents/BEC5606_Full_report18.pdf) is a well considered study of the pros and cons of OSS v.s. non-OSS that deserves close attention by educators around the globe.

    Personally I’d love to see our schools use OSS and as a result spend more of our educational budget in Australia on Australians, however Con’s article will do little to advance this agenda. Rather than exploring the complex issues raised in this report he has done a disservice to our schools, and OSS, by writing an opinion puff piece that blames educators for “fear and lack of vision.”

    I feel that the last paragraph of the report puts the whole issue in the right context. It said, “Migration to open source may not be the best option for all schools, although the potential benefits clearly make it an option worth serious consideration. Careful planning and discussion would be needed within the school, and it is important to think about what combination of elements of open source it might be worth introducing and why.”

    I bet if you told the teacher' ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    I bet if you told the teacher's that all the saved money would go into their own pockets, they would switch to Linux and open-source the next day.

    The amount of immature comment ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    The amount of immature comments here is reaching record levels.

    People are complaining that article is one sided. Con is a director in Open Source Industry Australia - do you expect him to promote something that isn't open source? He is an honest man, trying to further his cause.

    Why are our American friends posting here? Afraid Microsoft may lose a few Aussie dollars? Please, this is a local matter and will handle it locally.

    Anyone that thinks Microsoft software is cheaper for Australia, needs to ask themselves several (rhetorical) questions:

    1. In what timeframe? Short term it may even hold water, if a bit of "imaginative" maths is used. Long term, not a chance. (Sub-questions: If MS software is so cheap, why do they make 80%+ margin on it? And why is Bill so rich?)

    2. Why do Australians, in this day of huge foreign trade deficit, need to buy something overseas that they don't REALLY have to buy overseas? (Sub-question: Is it better for Australia to give business to small local firms, or big American owned multi-nationals?)

    We already buy most of the computer related stuff from big American firms like IBM, HP, Dell etc. Do we really need to continue filling more of their pockets with money? Why not drop some of it and spend that money on our people instead?

    To Kevin McIsaac, IT Analyst ...Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    To Kevin McIsaac, IT Analyst

    You say:

    "Personally Id love to see our schools use OSS
    and as a result spend more of our educational
    budget in Australia on Australians, however
    Cons article will do little to advance this
    agenda. Rather than exploring the complex
    issues raised in this report he has done a
    disservice to our schools, and OSS, by writing
    an opinion puff piece that blames educators
    for fear and lack of vision."

    This has nothing to do with complex issues.

    This has everything to do with corrupt
    officials in Education. The ones who DO NOT
    ALLOW open tenders for software like this. The
    one who BAN the use of software like Firefox
    and OpenOffice.org because it competes with
    Microsoft's wares.

    You also say

    "I feel that the last paragraph of the report
    puts the whole issue in the right context. It
    said, Migration to open source may not be the
    best option for all schools, although the
    potential benefits clearly make it an option
    worth serious consideration. Careful planning
    and discussion would be needed within the
    school,and it is important to think about what
    combination of elements of open source it
    might be worth introducing and why."

    That is all very good. But what happens when
    the Education fat cats DO NOT ALLOW the schools
    to go down this path? When they have
    spceficially AVOIDED considering open source
    options, even after the The Ministerial Council
    on Education, Employment, Training and Youth
    Affairs (http://www.mceetya.edu.au/)
    SPECIFICALLY asked them to prepare such a plan
    for open source in 2003 and NOT ONE of the
    Departments did so?

    Don't you begin to smell a rat, too?

    Perhaps some bureaucrats may b ...Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    Perhaps some bureaucrats may be fearful of switching schools to open source software. However, I think that it has more to do with the rumors that Linux is more complex than Windows to learn and use. I disagree with the notion that children will have more trouble learning to use a Linux operating system. After all there are those of us that learned to use a computer in a command-line DOS environment... We learned to use a PC in a far more complex environment than what kids today have. Kids are bright; they will have no troule learning to use Linux on the desktop.

    Now, as far as the teachers being unwilling to learn new software. Why do the taxpayers have to pay the wages of some burned-out, lazy bums who aren't willing to WORK for their paychecks? After all it was these same teachers who went to school during the command-line era, and had made the decision to be a teacher. That was their choice, they knew that re-education in their job field was going to be part of their job. It should not fall on the taxpayers shoulders to continue paying out their rears for those instructor's l****itude. What should happen is that those teachers should be given an ultimatum... Either learn to teach the new software or you can stay at your same salary for the next 20 years as we won't be able to afford any pay increase for you due to software expenditures.

    Ultimately, it's the parent's choice whether or not they want their kids to continue being taught by teachers who are too lazy to learn new things to teach. Because when hundreds of thousands of angry taxpayers yell at the government in unison. The government really has little choice but to listen, and take action. After all no government, not even a monarchy is interested in losing tax revenues. If the parents speak together, the bureaucrats will listen.

    "Additionally, teachers a ...Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    "Additionally, teachers also know that they will need to learn a whole swag of new software, with minimal time and support."

    That's a deal-breaker right there. Teachers should spend their time teaching. Not 'learning a whole swag of new software'. Software is peripheral to the whole raison-de-etre of a teacher, or of a Department of Education. (Yes, I'm an American, but we have this debate over here too you know)

    So instead of dismissing the single most cogent argument opposed to Linux (or Apple or FreeBSD or ANY other software solution), I think you should tell us how you think they could implement this with the minimum disruption of the teacher's prime mission- educating students. It's not a small thing.

    Oh come on! Give me a break yo ...Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    Oh come on! Give me a break you bureaucrats! Are you sure you even have the balls to fight for your own freedom and future? You sure you guys can fight terrorists when you won't fight a US-based corporation?

    Go read the book, US vs. Microsoft published by The New Yor Times ISBN 0-07-135588-X and perhaps that will give you an idea of what you need to do.

    If that book does not inspire you to take action, am I right to say that all you bureaucrats are just taxing your citizens to fill your bellies? Where is your Belief, Courage and Action?

    Wake up my dear friends. The world is rapidly changing. Attainment of Excellence is through caring more than others think is wise. Risking more than others think is safe. Dreaming more than others think is practical and expecting more than others think is possible. And you have to do all this within a world full of rapid change, where the adaptable shall be the sole survivors!

    First off this article refers ...Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    First off this article refers to elementary and secondary schools.

    Now, about the notion that if students aren't trained in using what is currently in the workforce, then no one will hire them.

    First off, if all an employer has to choose from is potential employees who are trained in Linux. Then the employers will have no choice but to hire those people. Furthermore, Windows is by far a much simpler OS to learn that Linux. Those students who have learned to use Linux will be much more able to learn Windows on the fly. Than to expect a Windows trained student to be able to learn Linux on the fly. The result? You have better employees because they can easier adapt to the other OS. I think that the employers would benefit from having more versatile employees.

    Now, regarding any notions that free software isn't necessarily of intrisic value...

    When you are talking tax monies, then every free boost counts. Education is something that is expensive, especially when it comes to teacher salaries. Year after year, educators expect pay raises. Where does that money come from; taxes. So in this case rather than raising taxes, switch off to something that doesn't cost money, to put that money in the educator's pockets.

    Additionally, as far as quality of education is concerned if instructors aren't willing to learn new things. Then how can students possibly be getting the best education possible? It strikes me that young people need a plethora of varied activities in order to stay interested. It is when these students are interested that they learn best. So why not cut the amount of Windows boxes to a minimum in the educational institutions and introduce free Linux on the majority of boxes? The savings would be more than enough to increase salaries, and even add to the school's coffers.

    Also, regarding the notion that people need to 'fear Microsoft'...

    Microsoft gets away with whatever the people ALLOW Microsoft to get away with. If nobody can see or understand this, then my personal notion that we as humans are by the vast majority, a bunch of blind simpletons is right on target. As stated in another post it isn't rocket science to learn any word processor as opposed to Brand X. However, the vast majority believe this to be a rocket science. You can bet that Microsoft knows this and will continue to use the majorities flaws to keep a buch of happy, simple Windows users. But hey, maybe that's what the vast majority enjoy... Being led by the nose like a Bull to whatever the large corporations and bureaucrats decide.

    Wake up and get real everyone, you are simply allowing yourselves to be forced into whatever these entities decide for you... The cure? Stand up and make your opinions known!

    Microsoft needs to be cut down ...Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    Microsoft needs to be cut down to size. This leech of a company has been sucking money out of everyone's pockets for years and only now have people begun to look for alternatives. The main problems of swithching over to open source are minimal. Many GUI of many opensource applications are designed much like the microsoft ones. One can easily, for example, find all of the same tools in OpenOffice as he/she can in Word. Also the desktops are very reminiscent of both Mac and Windows...depending on the one you decide to run. In short the government and schools need to open their eyes and look past these minor ( if any ) setbacks. People can adapt. Especially if their paycheck is bigger because of the money that was saved.
    note: that is not my main email...just a spam one

    What annoys me most is that th ...Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    What annoys me most is that the education establishment is supposed to be providing an *education*, and, at the very least, the computing cl****es in all high schools should have just about as much Linux-based as MS-based stuff taught, otherwise they are just creating consumers for Microsoft (for which MS should be paying them, not the other way around!).

    I began my computing life based on MS and VB and Access, etc. Since then switched to Linux, Perl, MySQL etc. The reason? There is no freedom in it and I don't think there is any future in it where you are not ripping somebody off. So it's not like I'm some FOSS fanatic, I began in the MS sphere, I tried it, and in the end I hated it. Basically, I had to learn about the alternative myself, and it infuriates me that schools still don't provide this opportunity when clearly, as *educational* institutions, they should.

    Especially since I never really learned a damned thing using MS. My real knowledge came from the time since I switched to Linux. Linux teaches you real skills (a lot which you can transfer back to Windows if you like). Windows largely teaches you how to be a consumer and not much more.

    Here is another way to spin th ...Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    Here is another way to spin this discussion. Without Microsoft, Open Source would have nothing to clone from, ideas to copy from and opposing products to develop.
    Without SCO and others (Unix, Xenix, Minix etc) Linus would have had nothing to clone from to develop Linux.

    So when you all say inovation I really wonder what it is that Open Source has developed that hasn't already existed on a proprietory system, from Sun, Novell, Microsoft, Apple, IBM, HP and every other vendor out there that existed more then 10 years ago, and has continued to move their products forward over time.

    This problem in the upper leve ...Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    This problem in the upper levels of the education beaurocracy is not limited to Australia. Its definitely present here in California. Another large problem with deploying FLOSS in a school environment is the virtical market software used by schools. It runs on windows, and if you're luck, sometimes on mac. This is a catch 22, because until more schools deploy FLOSS to the desktop, we won't see 3rd-party vendor support there. Schools won't deploy FLOSS until the vendor support is there. Also, virtually all internally developed and distributed dept of education applications are deployed to windows only, and these are applications that we are required to use.

    Some forward thinking vendors are deploying applications via the web rather than client software, which in my opinion is a much smarter long term strategy. As long as the developers don't use single-browser or single-platform browser techniques.

    We are almost exclusively FLOSS on all our servers, which has saved us tens of thousands in CAL's alone, not to mention the security advantages, but despite mentioning this to my immediate administration, does not seem to carry much weight.

    John, consultant, USA. You say ...Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    John, consultant, USA.

    You say:

    "Here is another way to spin this discussion. Without Microsoft, Open Source would have nothing to clone from, ideas to copy from and opposing products to develop."

    What have you been smoking, friend? Microsoft is the King of Cloners. At least Open Source came up the the Internet, the single most important creation of 60 years of IT.

    More importantly, your comments are a red herring. Most horizontal software is now a commodity. Why shouls schools pay millions for something you can get for free?

    It's like removing the taps from schools and forcing schools councils to pay for foreign/imprted bottled water.

    Just makes zero sense.

    John: Consultant, that is the ...Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    John: Consultant, that is the exact reason that companies like IBM and Cisco have switched to Linux and why the US military in their "Windows-only" operations use Linux. Because it costs them more money. Haha.

    IBM is the largest computer company in the world and one of the things that entitles is knowing something about money. IBM did initial research and testing to determine if it would be beneficial for them to switch... and they switched. What does that tell you?

    If IBM really switched and are ...Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    If IBM really switched and are selling Open Source to its customers for the greater good of the world ask them to open source websphere, db2 and sell HP hardware when asked to. The greater good should mean these other things are less important...I think not. IBM will do anything to sell its hardware, maintenance and software products. If open source enables them to sell more of it (short term or long term :-)) you can guarantee they will. HP is no different.

    Microsoft may be king of clone ...Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    Microsoft may be king of cloners, but it does give the Open Source world something to target when it competes, because it is all about reputation and competing, maybe not because that makes the Open Source world just the same doesn't it.

    Linux competes with Windows, Open Office competes with Office, MySQL with SQL, firefoz with IE...the list just goes on and on.

    Please list the Open Source projects that do not have a proprietary cousin whether from Microsoft or anybody else. I am pretty sure this list is very short but I may be surprised because this would show real value rather than also ran technology.

    John the Consultant from USA. ...Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    John the Consultant from USA.

    Are you a newcomer to the industry or are you deliverately trying to sound silly?

    You say:

    "Linux competes with Windows, Open Office competes with Office, MySQL with SQL, firefoz with IE...the list just goes on and on."

    Here are some facts for you dude:

    1) Microsoft didn't write SQL Server. Sybase did.

    2) Microsoft didn't write the first computer word processor, spreadsheet, end-user database or presentation program. Other firms did.

    3) Microsoft did no invent the web browser.

    Do you want to be taken seriously in this discussion?

    Yes?

    Then buy some clue.

    Sheesh.

    "Then buy some clue" ...Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    "Then buy some clue"...so kaypoh; my bit of Singlish for you

    I didn't say Microsoft was the first nor the last to copy ideas or wrote "equivalent" software, in fact Xerox by rights owns the whole Windowing interface (Apple, Microsoft, X, Motif et al, they have all copied here), what I said was they Microsoft gives Open Source the target it needs to get credibility and mind share by attacking the leader of the market. What I did ask was in what way was Open Source being inventive by creating software that doesn't already exist in a commercial or proprietary format...Something new, unthought of before, not just a different version of the same!!!!

    Hello from up North! Your scho ...Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    Hello from up North!

    Your school system is not the only one in this predicament. I am on the faculty of a college in the US and unfortunately we are being forced into an all-MS network, eMail, etc... system in order to meet the standardization requirements of a higher-up information technology office. I don't know that the administrators have grip on the implications of this decision.

    John, Consultant from USA, you ...Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    John, Consultant from USA,

    you say:

    "I didn't say Microsoft was the first nor the last to copy ideas or wrote "equivalent" software, in fact Xerox by rights owns the whole Windowing interface (Apple, Microsoft, X, Motif et al, they have all copied here)."

    Actually, you are wrong. The windowing system metaphor, mouse etc, came from Douglas Englebart in the late 60s while he was at SRI, well before Xerox @ PARC. Go do some research.

    You also say:

    "what I said was they Microsoft gives Open Source the target it needs to get credibility and mind share by attacking the leader of the market. What I did ask was in what way was Open Source being inventive by creating software that doesn't already exist in a commercial or proprietary format...Something new, unthought of before, not just a different version of the same!!!!"

    You are wrong here too.

    Open source is producing software in modes of use which have existed well before Microsoft got into the act. While some apps, OpenOffice.org, are designed to make it easier for users to switch from existing Microsoft equivalents, that's the whole point. They need to look similar to achieve this aim.

    As for you last comment, you obviously didn't read a previous posters note. The open source community developed the single most impressive technology in the computer space: The Internet.

    By comparison, what novel and wonderful technologies has Microsoft created, in 30 years, with its much vaunted R & D spending?

    That's right: bupkiss; zero; zilch; nada; nix; sweet FA.

    Enjoy ;-)

    I wouldn't bother trying to ar ...Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    I wouldn't bother trying to argue with them John... The majority are little kiddies who have no idea how the real world works, and have created a kind of religion where they all gather around (online or off) building and focusing their hatred on Microsoft, in a kind of open source hatefest. They recycle the same circular arguments and conspiracy theories, calling anybody who dares display an impartial opinion of MS a lacky, M$ employee, etc... It really gets old after a while. Oh, and as you've experienced, they avoid responding to any valid points you bring up and only respond to the ones which they can twist to support their argument.

    Jason Green, I read the respon ...Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    Jason Green,

    I read the respondents to John from USA's comments.

    They all seemed accurate and reasonable.

    What was your problem with them?

    Jason Green! Buddy! Maaaaate! ...Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    Jason Green!

    Buddy! Maaaaate!

    What took you all this time to post an anti-Linux comment?

    What's up? Asleep at the wheel of the Trollmobile?

    Larf!

    Oh i'm not anti-linux. I'm ant ...Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    Oh i'm not anti-linux.

    I'm anti linux-fanboy.

    You see, the majority of people commenting on largely technical and programming issues have never touched a compiler in their life, but feel it is neccesary to put in their 2cents anyway. Regardless of whether they know what they are talking about or not.

    Funny enough I am still waitin ...Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    Funny enough I am still waiting for just one application to be listed that shows me that Open Source is actually creating something new, not just an image of something that already exists in somebody elses product.

    John, Consultant from the USA! ...Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    John, Consultant from the USA!

    Here's what you said:

    "Funny enough I am still waiting for just one application to be listed that shows me that Open Source is actually creating something new, not just an image of something that already exists in somebody elses product."

    Friend. you must either be deaf or blind.

    I've seen at least _two_ posters reply to your question.

    The answer they gave was that the open source mob created the whole Internet; the open source protocols, the reference implementations of code, released as open source etc.

    Which part of this answer do you not understand?
    Or are you just pretending to be stupid?

    Can you name ONE thing of equal importance that Microsoft has ever created?

    Hoi, Jason Green, you say &quo ...Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    Hoi, Jason Green, you say "Oh i'm not anti-linux. I'm anti linux-fanboy."

    Being against the Linux community is the same as being against Linux. Period. It's like saying I'm not against all of Australia, I'm merely against all Australians.

    You also say:

    "You see, the majority of people commenting on largely technical and programming issues have never touched a compiler in their life, but feel it is neccesary to put in their 2cents anyway. Regardless of whether they know what they are talking about or not."

    And why should someone need to know anything about programming issues to discuss topics of ICT procurement among government bodies? I presume you actually read the article?

    I too am a vendor looking at selling into the public school sector, and if the Departments of Education are not opening their markets to more than one vendor, that negatively effects me and my staff. I don't need to know anything about programming to dicuss such a topic.

    Perhaps you should pay more attention to the topic under discussion before bagging the posters in this forum next time.

    To J Strong What is your compe ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    To J Strong

    What is your compelling event or business value proposition that makes what you sell more compelling than what they have today.

    Let talk about this first and maybe we can help you sell into what seems to be a closed market.

    BusinessMan. you asked: " ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    BusinessMan.

    you asked:

    "What is your compelling event or business value proposition that makes what you sell more compelling than what they have today."

    My competing 'business value proposition' is a competitor to Microsoft's software stack. And since the state education departments do not go to tender for all the business they choose to give on a platter to Microsoft, I can't compete.

    Get them to go to open tender, and I'll have a chance.

    John said: > Funny enough I ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    John said:

    > Funny enough I am still waiting for just one application to be listed that shows me that Open Source is actually creating something new, not just an image of something that already exists in somebody elses product.

    When you say "somebody elses", I know you mean Microsoft's :-)

    Where is the Windows equivalent of yum/rpm/apt (etc.) and the whole mirror distibution model? Where are the live CDs of Windows? Where is Windows equivalent of a kernel that can mount more file systems than you can poke a stick at? Where is the equivalent of SELinux? Where is the equivalent of Xen (and not from Xen)? Where is Windows equivalent of SSH (and not a recompile)? Where on Earth is a decent shell, John? No, the cmd.exe crap does not count. Just a FEW examples of how the community innovates... But how would you know?

    And why, John, can't we see the source of Windows? Because, John, if you knew how to read that (the source), you would see that FOSS has one feature proprietary software will never have - an innovation beyond what you can understand - the ultimate ability to learn, improve and fix. Our software has a feature built in that enables it to outlive ANY proprietary software out there. It also enables our kids (and yours too) to actually learn how it's REALLY done.

    Isn't that worth a look for people that are in the business of education?

    Finally after all the blather ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Finally after all the blather an answer.

    You are actually wrong here in some ways

    "And why, John, can't we see the source of Windows? Because, John, if you knew how to read that (the source), you would see that FOSS has one feature proprietary software will never have - an innovation beyond what you can understand - the ultimate ability to learn, improve and fix. Our software has a feature built in that enables it to outlive ANY proprietary software out there. It also enables our kids (and yours too) to actually learn how it's REALLY done. "

    Shared Source actually allows ISV's, governments, hardware providers and many others the ability to see Microsoft sourcecode...you just can't clone it, disclose it, share it, ir fix it directly (there are channels for this, but yes if you are an appropriate individual or organisation you can, and many have

    Con never mentions the most im ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Con never mentions the most important word of all: "Content."

    There's plenty of educational sofwtare for Windows and Mac OS? How much for Linux ... ?

    Various folks are trying to address this situation, but there is simply not much out there at the moment.

    Educators care more about content than source code.

    Far-sighted members of the open source community are tackling this issue already, in the knowledge that they will get a far better hearing from educators once they have more to tell them than "the software system is free."

    > Shared Source actually al ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    > Shared Source actually allows ISV's, governments, hardware providers and many others the ability to see Microsoft sourcecode...you just can't clone it, disclose it, share it, ir fix it directly (there are channels for this, but yes if you are an appropriate individual or organisation you can, and many have

    Well, I'm obviously an "inappropriate" individual, given I cannot see it. :-)

    I trust you'll spare us the "share source is better than open source" spiel - we've heard it all before. It's a lame excuse from Microsoft's marketing department - I think that about covers it.

    John, the consultant from USA, ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    John, the consultant from USA, is keeping us entertained here. Here is the funny part of one of his replies (unimportant bits removed for brevity):

    "Shared Source actually allows [snip] the ability to see Microsoft sourcecode...you just can't [snip] share it [snip]"

    Thanks John - the best thing I read all day ;-)

    Simon Shardwood, this post is ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Simon Shardwood, this post is in response to your post.

    You mention in your post:

    "Con never mentions the most important word of all: "Content." There's plenty of educational sofwtare for Windows and Mac OS? How much
    for Linux ... ?"

    I've got a couple of kids in school, so know what you mean. But let me say this, as the kids move from lower primary up, they need less and less of the 'content' type applications and more and more general purpose applications.

    Additionally, I've noticed that Linux and open source have hundreds of sometimes fantastic apps (Science, maths, language, 3D graphics etc.) all available for free.

    So, here's what you do. You replace 80% of the Windows systems at the school with Linux. You lock that down, removing possibilities for muckups from the kids, remove chances for viruses etc.

    (Techupdate reported that Linux required 75% lower staff effort to support and maintain than Windows.
    http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2907876,00.html)

    You don't really need all those PCs to be running Here Comes Spot. You also keep your Macs and Windows on the other 20% of PCs to run your 'content'.

    Does that make sense Simon?

    Would that achieve the aims of continuing to offer 'content' where it's needed, yet greatly reducing overall costs?

    Please let me know if you still have problems with this concept.

    Of course you cannot share it ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Of course you cannot share it that is what IP protection is all about. This is not cloneware from SCO. This is a commercial in confidence access which you agree to respect when you sign up.

    I am waiting for Novell Netware, MVS, OS400 etc to offer the same rights for proprietary software to be viewed, what do you think the chances are?

    I have no problem with your ar ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    I have no problem with your argument, Han Nover, aside from the fact that network administrators hate complexity.

    Indeed, the NSW Teachers' Federation yesterday
    said it worries about having insufficient resources to sustain current computer instalations.

    Of course Open Source might be one answer for that dilemna if, as expected, it delivers lower support costs. I don't, however, see RedHat or Novell banking on support costs being lower for Linux than their rivals charge on other OSes.

    And I don't see a mixed network of Windows and Linux helping shcools find the resources to manage computers and deliver effective education.

    I think it is also important to recognise that content goes beyond "courseware."

    The whole point of teaching kiddies computing basics like how to use spreadsheets is to make them ready for the workplace.

    That's why schools in NSW teach MS Office.

    Sure it would nice if OOo were more prevalent and thereore a better option for the curriculum. But today it aint and it'll be a long time before a department of education is doing employers a service by making it the standard competency.

    None of this means I am anti-Linux or anti Open source.

    I use open source products. I promote Creative Commons. I have recommended Open Source products in articles I have written. I have volunteered my services to the open source community.

    I do so because I believe in this mode of production. But endlessly carping on that OSS is cheaper and better simply does not convert people to the cause or advance it.

    John from USA. I'm noticing a ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    John from USA.

    I'm noticing a pattern with your pasts friend... You on a hobby horse or something?

    I read from your post:

    "Of course you cannot share it that is what IP protection is all about. This is not cloneware from SCO. This is a commercial in confidence
    access which you agree to respect when you sign up."

    But that's what open source gives to the consumers, a guarantee that no single vendor can lock that user in. What's the point of Shared Source then? Where's the freedom in Shared Source? As a consumer of IT, I want more freedom from vendors and freedom with solutions - it's good business sense.

    You also noted:

    "I am waiting for Novell Netware, MVS, OS400 etc to offer the same rights for proprietary software to be viewed, what do you think the chances are?"

    Why do I care? Linux and open source give us all the source code and rights we need. For all many of us in the industry care, OS400, MVS and Netware can die as can Windows.

    Simon, you said: "Of cou ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Simon,

    you said:

    "Of course Open Source might be one answer for that dilemna if, as expected, it delivers lower support costs. I don't, however, see RedHat
    or Novell banking on support costs being lower for Linux than their rivals charge on other OSes."

    What do you mean?

    Red Hat charges a couple of thousand for yearly Enterprise Linux support contracts. That includes as many phone and email support queries you can throw at them. Microsoft does not offer a similar deal. Microsoft's support calls are hundreds of dollars each.

    Please explain.

    Also, Simon, your other commen ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Also, Simon,

    your other comments were:

    "And I don't see a mixed network of Windows and Linux helping shcools find the resources to manage computers and deliver effective education."

    Locked down Linux systems are near zero-admin effort.

    With the money saved in reducing TCO, the staff and 3rd party IT suppliers can be trained to support all of Mac, Win and Linux. Do the numbers, you'll see how it can work.

    You also say:

    "The whole point of teaching kiddies computing basics like how to use spreadsheets is to make them ready for the workplace. That's why schools in NSW teach MS Office."

    That's a real fallacy and a big mistake of thought. Here's why.

    schools are _not_ there to do vocational training. Any software taught at school level to year 9s will be a dodo version by the time those kids enter the work force.

    Maybe if we were talking about TAFE you could be right. But not schools.

    Your next comment is:

    "Sure it would nice if OOo were more prevalent and thereore a better option for the curriculum. But today it aint and it'll be a long time before a department of education is doing employers a service by making"

    Schools are there to teach writing, and maths, not word processing, certainly not Word. If all the students learn is word processing on Word then all they learn is Word. If they are also heavily exposed to OpenOffice.org, then they gain the breadth of experience to learn word processing. Make sense? This is what teachers have told me.

    Finally, you write:

    "I do so because I believe in this mode of production. But endlessly carping on that OSS is cheaper and better simply does not convert people
    to the cause or advance it."

    No, but allowing a few of us here to speak to your concerns does. Have I answered all your concerns? Can you now see why it is possible and indeed advantageous to migrate much of Education to Linux and open source?

    Lemme know.

    Hobby Horse, absolutely not. M ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Hobby Horse, absolutely not. Many years in IT, exposure to many OS's and applications.

    What does annoy is the fact everything bad in this world is Microsoft fault, everything good is Open Source. There is no balance here, just a lot of one sided air punching.

    I am playing devils advocate because nothing only every has one side, no matter how far out on one side you sit.

    If you asked me I would have to say the best OS I have ever worked with and on is OpenVMS, it is still light years ahead of many competitors with functionality and capability, it just happens to be dying a slow death. Yes I am that old :-)

    Han Nover. Let's leave the deb ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Han Nover.

    Let's leave the debate about schools' role alone. I ain't qualified on that one. But I do know that in NSW, there is a subject in which basic computing skills are taugh in Office, because it is ****umed that high school kiddies will encounter it in the workplace. I dispute the fact that software taught to year 9s today will be irrelevant later: Word has not changed markedly since 1996. That gives a year 9 student enough time to finish school and six year degree like law! Technical software, sure. End-user mainstream stuff? I think not.

    I can't cop your support costs argument either. The actual size of ther cheque you write to an organisation is a tiny fraction of TCO. Some of those costs are opportunity costs. If Microsoft charges per call but RedHat takes longer to come up with a solution via the vaunted "ask the community" route then the total cost can quickly change whatever the actual sum of money paid for support (Not that I am suggesting RedHat would take longer).

    Likewise and auto-installing patch can take less time to install than one that needs more technical skills to deploy.

    After more than a decade observing this industry I can tell you that when anyone says something is 'zero admin' it is not. That goes for ANY technology, ALL the time.

    Linux has its advantages.

    Windows does many jobs very well.

    I don't think that Linux's advantages are as yet sufficiently compelling to adopt it across the board in education.

    Simon, your comment was: " ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Simon,

    your comment was:

    "I don't think that Linux's advantages are as yet sufficiently compelling to adopt it across the board in education."

    Here's the nub of the problem. From what I read in the article we're all discussing, the various departments of education are not even _bothering_ seriously testing Linux. They certainly are not allowing Linux vendors to bid for any Education business.

    Sure. if Microsoft wins the tender in an open, accountable and fair manner, then great for them. However, there is presently no open, accountable and fair tender for any of this software. Microsoft is just given the business with no competition allowed.

    Does that make the problem clearer for everyone now?

    Do you all agree that this is wrong and unfair?

    Hi again Simon. I read your co ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Hi again Simon.

    I read your comment --

    "Let's leave the debate about schools' role alone. I ain't qualified on that one. But I do know that in NSW, there is a subject in which basic computing skills are taugh in Office, because it is ****umed that high school kiddies will ncounter
    it in the workplace."

    I would say that one cl**** needing MS Office should not force all other 180,000 PCs in NSW DET to also use MS Office and Windows. Don't you agree?

    You also said --

    "I dispute the fact that software taught to year 9s today will be irrelevant later: Word has not changed markedly since 1996."

    I agree - and yet Microsoft keeps touting its amazing 'innovation' as well as upgrade charges to boot ;-)

    I would also add that anyone who used Word in year 9 or OpenOffice.org Writer in Year 9 would both know how to use Word in the workplace many years later. OpenOffice.org is intended to be essentially a clone of MS Office, so that it _is_ easy for people to switch over.

    You also say --

    "That gives a year 9 student enough time to finish school and six year degree like law! Technical software, sure. End-user mainstream stuff? I think not."

    I don't understand what you are saying. Are you implying that if the student learnt on Linux, then they would only learn technical software?

    Next you say --

    "I can't cop your support costs argument either. The actual size of ther cheque you write to an organisation is a tiny fraction of TCO. Some of those costs are opportunity costs. If Microsoft charges per call but RedHat takes longer to come up with a solution via the vaunted "ask the community" route then the total cost can quickly change whatever the actual sum of money paid for support (Not that I am suggesting RedHat would take longer)."

    Red Hat charges for support because Red Hat has teams of engineers globally to provide that support; it doesn't point you to a Linux user group.

    Have you used either Red Hat's or Microsoft's support? I've used both and I can tell you that Red Hat's is better. Do you want to know why? With Red Hat, if, after the first 12 months of the support contract you don't like the support you've
    received, you can take your Linux support business elsewhere. There are 12 other suppliers who can offer you Red Hat enterprise support package updates, many for free. There are also dozens of Australian firms that can provide technical and engineering serviced on the Linux codebase. This _forces_ Red Hat to be good with support.

    Next you say --

    "Likewise and auto-installing patch can take less
    time to install than one that needs more technical
    skills to deploy."

    _If_, as you say, you like Linux, you would know
    that it ships with auto-updating technology, like
    apt, yum and up2date, that Microsoft users can only dream about.

    With my apt system, I can update from dozens of
    repositories globally, managing over 5,000 separate applications for my Linux systems. All from a pretty gui. Here, take a look:

    http://www.nongnu.org/synaptic/action.html

    Windows is far, far behind here my friend. Let's
    not talk about actual technology, because you will
    eat dust in this instance ;-)

    Oh, Simon, I forgot. you say - ...Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Oh, Simon, I forgot.

    you say --

    "I can't cop your support costs argument either."

    Well, don't cop my support cost arguments - read what the UK government said about it:

    "On Friday, for example, it released the findings of its first comparative study into the savings and benefits enjoyed by the few schools in the UK that have switched to open source software."

    "The report shows, for example, that these schools spend less than half of what their Microsoft-enthralled contemporaries have to fork out on IT support. Other benefits include lower expenditure on software licensing, and computers that have to be upgraded less frequently because they no longer dance to the beat of Microsoft's drum."

    source:
    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,1483969,00.html

    And we also know that the UK government are not Linux fanboys. So, if the impartial judge says that Linux is 50% _lower_ total TCO for schools, believe it.

    As a taxpayer, surely you want to see your money spent better. As a parent, I want my kids using a broader selection of software.

    This comment is in regard to S ...Anonymous -- 19/05/05

    This comment is in regard to Simon Sharwood's below

    >I have no problem with your argument, Han Nover, >aside from the fact that network administrators >hate complexity.

    Actually most [net. admins, me included when I have held that position] hate having to do repetive jobs that *could* be automated instead of actually supporting their end users in a way that makes the end user's happy. Putting out fires all day every day does NOT make for a happy net. admin. We would rather be making live better and have smooth operation.

    >Indeed, the NSW Teachers' Federation yesterday
    >said it worries about having insufficient >resources to sustain current computer >instalations.

    All the more reason to switch to something mantainable.

    >Of course Open Source might be one answer for >that dilemna if, as expected, it delivers lower >support costs. I don't, however, see RedHat or >Novell banking on support costs being lower for >Linux than their rivals charge on other OSes.

    RedHat and Novell are NOT the only Linux vendors. There are literally hundreds, perhaps at this point thousands. Most likely a school can find *local* professional support. Have they looked? Are they allowing vendors to bid? Are they only accepting bids from Microsoft vendors?

    Not only can they choose that, they can also use in-house staff (teacher or school network admin. trained in Linux to handle their tech. issues). Even if a Microsoft Tech. is trained they can't CHANGE the OS to make things better. With Linux and other Open Source operating systems (such as BSD) these administrator's CAN. Not only can they... but if they do they make life better at all the OTHER places that use this software for that purpose. Does this happen with MicroSoft's OS offerings?

    >And I don't see a mixed network of Windows and >Linux helping shcools find the resources to >manage computers and deliver effective education.

    Perhaps it would be educational for you to do a little google search on Linux Terminal Services Project (especially the K12ltsp project). This may allow your vision to be expanded.

    >I think it is also important to recognise that >content goes beyond "courseware."

    Whom creates this content? Is there any reason it's not already available on or as FOSS? Is it possible that there are Other choices available that are content rich?

    >The whole point of teaching kiddies computing >basics like how to use spreadsheets is to make >them ready for the workplace.

    And here *I* thought it was about teaching them how to think and create the future.

    >That's why schools in NSW teach MS Office.

    It's not because it makes life easier for the teachers and students?

    >Sure it would nice if OOo were more prevalent and >thereore a better option for the curriculum. But >today it aint and it'll be a long time before a >department of education is doing employers a >service by making it the standard competency.

    That just doesn't make any sense at all to me. Could you give a concrete example of an employer that was not done a service by educator's educating students as to the tools available to them and how to use them?

    >None of this means I am anti-Linux or anti Open >source.

    Glad to hear it.

    >I use open source products.

    Great!

    > I promote Creative
    >Commons.

    Cool!

    > I have recommended Open Source products
    >in articles I have written. I have volunteered my >services to the open source community.

    And have you found that your services are in demand? Are you being well utilized or are you languishing? What services would you like to provide that you aren't currently providing? What would that look like? How would it feel? Can we help you help us in any way?

    >I do so because I believe in this mode of >production. But endlessly carping on that OSS is >cheaper and better simply does not convert people >to the cause or advance it.

    Certainly it has been my experience that showing people the benefits is much more l

    LOL. Comment from John the con ...Anonymous -- 19/05/05

    LOL. Comment from John the consultant. "Free is not what it is all about" When all alse is equal, or near enough then $Millions actually DOES count for a lot! Bloody consultants! Shoot the lot and let God sort them out.

    I think your wrong, most of th ...Anonymous -- 19/05/05

    I think your wrong, most of these politicians and IT Infrastructure workers are probably still bleeding from a similar "Open" technology that today is so easily forgotten "Open Systems".

    Well we all know that never happened and those that jumped on the band wagon were scorched and sent to the wastelands. If you look at then and now the tactics and strategies are parallel.

    It sad that this opportunity cannot win by just delivering good product, build it they will come!

    At the end of the day the imperitive is support, ususally when things go pear shape the quality of the rectification that will determine if there is a need for change.

    Anonymous from Sydney! Here's ...Anonymous -- 19/05/05

    Anonymous from Sydney!

    Here's what your post said:

    "I think your wrong, most of these politicians and IT Infrastructure workers are probably still bleeding from a similar "Open" technology that today is so easily forgotten "Open Systems"."

    Open Systems was not as successful as open source, but open systems was a good first attempt. In fact, we are using one of the core open systems now as we communicate: The Internet.

    Also, Open Systems, in the guise of the operating system Unix, powers most major organisations today.

    What do you mean that open systems failed?

    You also say:

    "It sad that this opportunity cannot win by just delivering good product, build it they will come!"

    This will only work if the departments in question actually look at any competing 'good product'. At present, they don't.

    You also say:

    "At the end of the day the imperitive is support, ususally when things go pear shape the quality of the rectification that will determine if there is a need for change."

    I agree. Which is why Linux wins here. It is afforded better technical support, by more suppliers, than Microsoft's offerings.

    I have a daughter that is 6 ye ...Anonymous -- 19/05/05

    I have a daughter that is 6 years old, at her school she has not only (MS)pc's but some apple's as well,
    and is able to write letters to her friends using both systems and when at home uses openoffice with a little guidence,Im so proud of her because to me it's like speaking 3 different languages,but she tackles it no worries

    Read this: http://www.smh.com. ...Anonymous -- 20/05/05

    Read this: http://www.smh.com.au/news/Tips/Installing-software-under-Linux/2005/05/19/1116361667063.html and then tell me that Linux is cheaper and easier to use in an educational setting.

    Do you seriously expect students or teacher/administrators to learn this and then deal with it every day when a computer is supposed to help them learn about the world?

    No wonder Red Hat's support needs to be good ...

    To Anonymous in the post above ...Anonymous -- 21/05/05

    To Anonymous in the post above. You wrote:

    "Read this:
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/Tips/Installing-software-under-Linux/2005/05/1$
    and then tell me that Linux is cheaper and easier to use in an educational setting."

    I read that link. It shows that Linux is flexible with you how install and update software. There was no negative connotation in the article. What's your point?

    Also, you say:
    "Do you seriously expect students or teacher/administrators to learn this and then deal with it every day when a computer is supposed to help them learn about the world?"

    Buddy, you really are out of whack. Education departments hire IT personnel to look after school computers. You merely ensure when you select such IT staff, that they are skilled in Linux.

    Is that too hard for you to understand?

    What Open Source Industry Aust ...Anonymous -- 22/05/05

    What Open Source Industry Australia and Linux Australia need to do is have a complete mobile Linux lab set up as a 'full' educational facility. All programs needed to demonstrate the possibilities.

    This is a lack of understandin ...Anonymous -- 23/05/05

    This is a lack of understanding about how governments make decisions.
    You cannot force governments to change from a tried and true method (albeit costly) just because you offer a cheaper alternative.
    There is a very real benefit in government for not making decisions. No government official has ever gotten in trouble for not making a decision, but the road of history is littered with the corpses of those who made poor decisions.
    Governments may well see the benefit, but you are asking one or 2 people at high levels to take a leap of faith to go to FOSS.
    You wont see government action at this level until FOSS out does Microsoft in usage - but more more importantly in community acceptability.
    Its as simple as that. It might not be overly commercially viable, but act local - think global.

    GP from Melbourne. you say: &q ...Anonymous -- 23/05/05

    GP from Melbourne.

    you say:

    "This is a lack of understanding about how governments make decisions. You cannot force governments to change from a tried and true method
    (albeit costly) just because you offer a cheaper alternative."

    Sorry, but Microsoft's solutions are not working at all. Teachers spend way too much time fixing Windows and virus and spyware fiascos.

    Also, many arms of government, state and federal, ARE looking to Linux and open source. It's just that Education is not, and they are the ones who it can most benefit.

    ACCC complaint on Education Departments killing off competition Sly Coder -- 02/08/05

    I notice that this topic will soon be under investigation from the ACCC.

    Do NOT use CYBERSOURCE as a Payment Gateway! michael paterson -- 04/12/08

    Our online magazine has been dicked around by Cybersource since 2004. The support system they have has practically faded and it appears that we are just another number. Instead of providing hands-on service to make sure their customers are happy, they provide us with an irritable email support system that is inadequate. When we complained that we want to talk to someone when there is a problem they said our account does not qualify to get live support. HELLO? There is no direct help when you need it, and after cursing them for the umpteeth time (finally being able to lodge my complaints with that useless Trish Martin, VP Customer Support) they decided to lock our account - so all this week we have not been able to access our clients accounts to check problems associated with recurring subscriptions. They haven't helped our company at all, in fact, they have cost us a LOT of time and money. This week we will be changing to another payment gateway. DO NOT patronize Cybersource. You will regret that you did and you'll be inundated with problems. They need to realize that the customer comes first and that we have a choice whether to patronize their business... AND because they have ticked me off so much I am now spreading this news to everyone over the internet until I get an apology from them.

    Wrong 'Cybersource' dude The Wise Woman -- 15/01/09 (in reply to #320117929)

    Cybersource Pty. Ltd. is an Australian Linux and open source company, in business since 1991.

    CyberSource Corp, the 'Cybersource' you are referring to in your post, is an American credit-card payment gateway company, started in 1995.

    Please don't confuse the two.

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