The real roadblocks to Linux in education

In this issue of Industry Insider, Con Zymaris, our guest columnist from Open Source Industry Australia, describes the major barriers for Linux in the education system.

commentary Linux and open source software have a problem in Australia's education sector.

And that problem has nothing to do with the value-for-money or fitness--for-purpose of the software. It has everything to do with fighting an uphill battle against entrenched ideology and frightened government bureaucrats.

A recent report published by the UK government shows how adopting Linux and other open-source solutions could save education possibly tens of millions of pounds every year.

The UK government's ICT agency, British Educational Communications and Technology Association, suggested that schools could slash their total computer costs by up to 50 percent if they "stopped buying, operating and supporting products from the world's largest software company". Incredible and sobering information.

But what does this mean in the Australian context? Will we see Australia's state departments of education suddenly jump at the chance to save hundreds of millions in computer system costs?

Not likely. But why? The answers lie in intimidation and trepidation. In simple terns, fear and lack of vision.

Here's how it works. Most government primary and secondary schools don't care about saving costs by using cheaper alternatives. You see, they effectively pay nothing for their proprietary software -- the schools' owners, the respective Departments of Education do. And the mandarins therein don't like anything that rocks the boat, and are thus greatly threatened by Free and Open Source Software (FOSS). Nothing rocks an ICT boat like FOSS does.

Which is why you find that in almost all circumstances, the Departments of Education in each state are also the most pro-Microsoft. I've been trying for over two years to make headway with some of them. They tell me that they are scared of doing anything which will upset Microsoft.

Yes ... you read that right. The representatives of our elected government are scared of displeasing a vendor!

If these departments suddenly stopped paying for proprietary software and switched to FOSS, the schools know they won't reap any of the purported savings. So, why would schools bother with trialling FOSS? Where's the incentive?

Additionally, teachers also know that they will need to learn a whole swag of new software, with minimal time and support. Teachers' time and stress levels are at a premium already. Without support from the powers that be, this makes migration away from "the world's largest software company" a hard and thankless task.

The upshot of all this is that every report commending the advantages of FOSS for the education sector falls on deaf, disinterested and frightened ears. This means that unless there is action from the absolute top, there will never be any action. Period.

This is why organisations like Open Source Industry Australia and Linux Australia are talking to [or trying to, at least] each state's Minister of Education, as well as their opposite numbers.

We want the incredible waste of money to be stopped right at the top. And if those discussions don't succeed, then it's time for the talk shows and mainstream newspapers.

I'm sure average Australians would love to learn how Linux and open source can save them -- as taxpayers -- hundreds of millions in software costs ... money which can be spent on something useful for a change. Our schools, teachers and students deserve as much.

biography
Con Zymaris is a Director of Open Source Industry Australia.

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Talkback 73 comments

  1. "Nothing rocks an ICT boat like FOSS does." So we should throw out all the training invested for less usable software so Cybersource can reap all the benefits? Open Office has its own problems right now, and sorry it just isnt as good Anonymous -- 13/05/05

    "Nothing rocks an ICT boat like FOSS does."

    So we should throw out all the training invested for less usable software so Cybersource can reap all the benefits? Open Office has its own problems right now, and sorry it just isnt as good Microsoft's offering right now.

    Go fix the code, make it a better product and stop talking about it/using consipracy theories/media for your own agenda.

  2. OpenOffice.org has problems? And Microsoft Office doesn't? Larf! At least OpenOffice.org is FREE dude. As far as education is concerneed, OpenOffice.org is more than good enough. Anonymous -- 13/05/05

    OpenOffice.org has problems?

    And Microsoft Office doesn't?

    Larf!

    At least OpenOffice.org is FREE dude.

    As far as education is concerneed, OpenOffice.org is more than good enough.

  3. Anonymous, you say: "So we should throw out all the training invested for less usable software so Cybersource can reap all the benefits?" Here are some cluepons for you: 1) For students, Linux and OpenOfic Anonymous -- 13/05/05

    Anonymous,

    you say:

    "So we should throw out all the training invested for less usable software so Cybersource can reap all the benefits?"

    Here are some cluepons for you:

    1) For students, Linux and OpenOfice, SAMBA and Apache are JUST as usable as the expensive Microsoft counterparts.

    2) There are several schools in Australia which have proven this. All of these schools are private schools, thus do not have their hands tied behind their backs by the biased Education Department controlled schools. Google for Strathcona Girls College and Linux to learn more.

    3) Why should Australian Open Source companies get some of the slice the Education IT budget? Why should it ALWAYS be Microsoft Microsoft Microsoft?

    You realise Microsoft sucks out $30 million a year out of our schools? And supporting the buggy and insecure Microsoft products sucks out another $100 million?

    Anonymous, are you a Microsoft employee feeling threatened?

    If so, what a shame!

    Get used to the heat dude.

    This is only the beginning.

  4. Why does free always play part in why its good. As most business people understand "free" has no intrinsic value, because it requires no investment or cost, therefore no buy in to the "value". Things like fit for the purpose Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    Why does free always play part in why its good. As most business people understand "free" has no intrinsic value, because it requires no investment or cost, therefore no buy in to the "value".

    Things like fit for the purpose, usability, functionality, ease of deployment, ease of securing, ease of management must play a part of the total picture, not just what it didn't cost to buy. As we all know the things outlined here are the real cost when it comes to any application used, not its upfront cost

    We all know that the education sector might as well call all software free as most companies invest so heavily to make it so. So the arguement of free and cheap really aren't what it is all about.

    This is not why Microsoft is better than Open Source or the reverse, just plain logic when you step back, drop the religion and think rationally

  5. What will the people at the DOE think when students in other nations have a better understading of computers and software because they can read the source? Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    What will the people at the DOE think when students in other nations have a better understading of computers and software because they can read the source?

  6. Can they take the savings and use some of it to pay teachers a higher salary? Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    Can they take the savings and use some of it to pay teachers a higher salary?

  7. You say the Departments of Education are afraid of Microsoft. What, specifically, are they afraid Microsoft would do if they were to adopt open source software? And are their fears realistic? Actually, if the D of E's even expressed an interest Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    You say the Departments of Education are afraid of Microsoft. What, specifically, are they afraid Microsoft would do if they were to adopt open source software? And are their fears realistic?

    Actually, if the D of E's even expressed an interest in oss, the Microsoft would be sure to repond by offering deep discounts. That is the pattern we have repeatedly seen in similar cases, such as the city of Munich.

  8. Schools have a <a href="http://computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/windows/story/0,10801,71690,00.html?nlid=PM">very good reason to fear</a> Microsoft. Try this on for size: Microsoft or their bully-boys, the BSA (Busines Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    Schools have a <a href="http://computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/windows/story/0,10801,71690,00.html?nlid=PM">very good reason to fear</a> Microsoft.

    Try this on for size: Microsoft or their bully-boys, the BSA (Business Software Alliance), can require the schools to perform - their own cost - a full audit of <b>all</b> their computer systems to demonstrate full license compliance.

    It's one of the minor perks of the terms of MS's sneaky EULA (End User License Agreement) to which the schools have agreed by clicking that "I accept..." button when installing MS Office, etc.

    Microsoft did exactly that in the state of Oregon in the US in 2002 (see link above). Note that many national governments are similarly beholden. I personally believe the implicit threat of an audit (it's cost and the high likelihood that non-compliance will be rife) is what is keeping my country's government firmly attached to the Redmond's ICT teet...

  9. If you have no Microsoft software why would an audit worry you. Once it is removed you are no longer held under their so called magic powers of evil. Of course if you want the fully integrated learning environment you probaly install more components rathe Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    If you have no Microsoft software why would an audit worry you. Once it is removed you are no longer held under their so called magic powers of evil. Of course if you want the fully integrated learning environment you probaly install more components rather then less.

  10. This has to be the most one sided useless article I've read in a long time. Schools are responsible for preparing students to go into the work force and be productive. Currently, the majority of software in the work force is Microsoft or some o Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    This has to be the most one sided useless article I've read in a long time.

    Schools are responsible for preparing students to go into the work force and be productive. Currently, the majority of software in the work force is Microsoft or some other proprietary software package. It would be a huge diservie to the students to force them into working on something they may never see in their careers.

    The thing schools are afarid of is losing their credibility. If schools are putting people through their programs that cannot perform once they are hired, then employeers won't hire students from those schools. Furthermore, students will start avoiding the school as they know that their chances of getting a good job are limited. Then the school has to change its focus since it is no longer considered a good technical school. There is also the issue of funding from alums and I'm sure Microsoft and other software companies add to the funding for these schols in the form of scholarships.

    Just remember there is no such thing as a free lunch. There is more than just the price of the software at issue here.

  11. This lot are not afraid http://www.ofset.org/ This lot are not afraid http://www.gluecode.com/ and they run "The World's Help Desk". I bet they have more employees in Australia than Microsoft does. And more employees with children at Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    This lot are not afraid http://www.ofset.org/

    This lot are not afraid http://www.gluecode.com/ and they run "The World's Help Desk". I bet they have more employees in Australia than Microsoft does. And more employees with children at Australian schools.

    Broker a deal.

  12. San Mateo Anonymous, you've misunderstood a key point here. These are *NOT* colleges or universities or technical schools we're talking about here. These are primary and secondary schools. They teach *children*. Thus your whole point about "training Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    San Mateo Anonymous, you've misunderstood a key point here. These are *NOT* colleges or universities or technical schools we're talking about here. These are primary and secondary schools. They teach *children*. Thus your whole point about "training students for the workforce" is (if not totally invalid) very much less valid.

    Training students for a job is *NOT* the focus of a primary/secondary school education. If that focus is anywhere, it's in an apprenticeship, technical school or university - where different rules apply.

    Schools are supposed to teach children *how* to write, not how to use a word processor. If students use software in schools, they should not be drilled by rote in using a single vendor's software.

    I know in your country you use the word "school" to refer to primary, secondary *and* tertiary educational instutions, but we don't here. And the distinction should have been quite obvious if you'd actually paid attention to the article you're criticising.

  13. Re: This has to be the most one sided useless article I've read in a long time. The fair soul who posted this seems to have a rather narrow view of employers. If a child understands key concepts, the vendor/version/flavor of the app du jour matt Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    Re: This has to be the most one sided useless article I've read in a long time.

    The fair soul who posted this seems to have a rather narrow view of employers. If a child understands key concepts, the vendor/version/flavor of the app du jour matters little. A graphical word processor is not rocket science, thus moving from one version to another is a skill any employee of mine had better be able to demonstrate, lest we be locked into a particular Word/WP/OO version. Save the millions on a brand, and spend it on sport/music/teacher education.

  14. So, educators might need some ****istance in learning how to use some new applications... What's the FOSS community prepared to offer in the way of ****istance? Give the educator a mentor. The term and the role is one their c Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    So, educators might need some ****istance in learning how to use some new applications...

    What's the FOSS community prepared to offer in the way of ****istance?

    Give the educator a mentor.

    The term and the role is one their community is familiar with.

    Try it. It can be fun.

  15. If you don't have real understanding of problems, just don't write any articles. This one is definitely misleading and full of stupid generalization. I work in education sector and use open source software quite a lot {and i really like it :-) Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    If you don't have real understanding of problems, just don't write any articles. This one is definitely misleading and full of stupid generalization.

    I work in education sector and use open source software quite a lot {and i really like it :-) Nevertheless it is not true that this software is free. We just do not have to pay for licences. But problem with maintaining and security are at least as time-demanding as for M$. So saving money argument is a nonsense.

    The main thing is quality of education and choice of M$ or open source ir quite irrelevant.

  16. I'm at the local tafe doing a cert iv in it programming where the main empahise is on vb.net and the teachers who are teaching us have never seemed to used it before so basicly if i want to learn something like c or c++ or any thing more advanced i would Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    I'm at the local tafe doing a cert iv in it programming where the main empahise is on vb.net and the teachers who are teaching us have never seemed to used it before so basicly if i want to learn something like c or c++ or any thing more advanced i would do better to buy a book and teach myself how to use it

  17. To Anonymous in San Mateo >This has to be the most one sided useless article >I've read in a long time. So, why bother commenting on it then, eh? >Schools are responsible for preparing students to >go into the wo Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    To Anonymous in San Mateo

    >This has to be the most one sided useless article >I've read in a long time.

    So, why bother commenting on it then, eh?

    >Schools are responsible for preparing students to >go into the work force and be productive.

    That's a rather narrow view... the real job of schools is to help prepare students for life, not just the needs of the marketplace.

    >Currently, the majority of software in the work >force is Microsoft or some other proprietary >software package. It would be a huge diservie to >the students to force them into working on >something they may never see in their careers.

    Bull. You sound like an MS shill. A few years ago, it was WordPerfect, now it's Word [insert version here]. what is more important is that the students learn about the capabilities of word processing (and other) software--not the details of just how to operate Brand X.

    >The thing schools are afarid of is losing their >credibility. If schools are putting people >through their programs that cannot perform once >they are hired, then employeers won't hire >students from those schools. Furthermore, >students will start avoiding the school as they >know that their chances of getting a good job are >limited. Then the school has to change its focus >since it is no longer considered a good technical >school.

    We're talking public schools here, not technical schools--there's a fundamental difference. What employers I deal with tell me what they're looking for are people who can think, not ones that are mindlessly trained to click on icon X in program Y.

  18. The BECTA report (http://www.becta.org.uk/corporate/publications/documents/BEC5606_Full_report18.pdf) is a well considered study of the pros and cons of OSS v.s. non-OSS that deserves close attention by educators around the globe. Personally I’ Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    The BECTA report (http://www.becta.org.uk/corporate/publications/documents/BEC5606_Full_report18.pdf) is a well considered study of the pros and cons of OSS v.s. non-OSS that deserves close attention by educators around the globe.

    Personally I’d love to see our schools use OSS and as a result spend more of our educational budget in Australia on Australians, however Con’s article will do little to advance this agenda. Rather than exploring the complex issues raised in this report he has done a disservice to our schools, and OSS, by writing an opinion puff piece that blames educators for “fear and lack of vision.”

    I feel that the last paragraph of the report puts the whole issue in the right context. It said, “Migration to open source may not be the best option for all schools, although the potential benefits clearly make it an option worth serious consideration. Careful planning and discussion would be needed within the school, and it is important to think about what combination of elements of open source it might be worth introducing and why.”

  19. I bet if you told the teacher's that all the saved money would go into their own pockets, they would switch to Linux and open-source the next day. Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    I bet if you told the teacher's that all the saved money would go into their own pockets, they would switch to Linux and open-source the next day.

  20. The amount of immature comments here is reaching record levels. People are complaining that article is one sided. Con is a director in Open Source Industry Australia - do you expect him to promote something that isn't open source? He is an hones Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    The amount of immature comments here is reaching record levels.

    People are complaining that article is one sided. Con is a director in Open Source Industry Australia - do you expect him to promote something that isn't open source? He is an honest man, trying to further his cause.

    Why are our American friends posting here? Afraid Microsoft may lose a few Aussie dollars? Please, this is a local matter and will handle it locally.

    Anyone that thinks Microsoft software is cheaper for Australia, needs to ask themselves several (rhetorical) questions:

    1. In what timeframe? Short term it may even hold water, if a bit of "imaginative" maths is used. Long term, not a chance. (Sub-questions: If MS software is so cheap, why do they make 80%+ margin on it? And why is Bill so rich?)

    2. Why do Australians, in this day of huge foreign trade deficit, need to buy something overseas that they don't REALLY have to buy overseas? (Sub-question: Is it better for Australia to give business to small local firms, or big American owned multi-nationals?)

    We already buy most of the computer related stuff from big American firms like IBM, HP, Dell etc. Do we really need to continue filling more of their pockets with money? Why not drop some of it and spend that money on our people instead?

  21. To Kevin McIsaac, IT Analyst You say: "Personally Id love to see our schools use OSS and as a result spend more of our educational budget in Australia on Australians, however Cons article will do little to adv Anonymous -- 14/05/05

    To Kevin McIsaac, IT Analyst

    You say:

    "Personally Id love to see our schools use OSS
    and as a result spend more of our educational
    budget in Australia on Australians, however
    Cons article will do little to advance this
    agenda. Rather than exploring the complex
    issues raised in this report he has done a
    disservice to our schools, and OSS, by writing
    an opinion puff piece that blames educators
    for fear and lack of vision."

    This has nothing to do with complex issues.

    This has everything to do with corrupt
    officials in Education. The ones who DO NOT
    ALLOW open tenders for software like this. The
    one who BAN the use of software like Firefox
    and OpenOffice.org because it competes with
    Microsoft's wares.

    You also say

    "I feel that the last paragraph of the report
    puts the whole issue in the right context. It
    said, Migration to open source may not be the
    best option for all schools, although the
    potential benefits clearly make it an option
    worth serious consideration. Careful planning
    and discussion would be needed within the
    school,and it is important to think about what
    combination of elements of open source it
    might be worth introducing and why."

    That is all very good. But what happens when
    the Education fat cats DO NOT ALLOW the schools
    to go down this path? When they have
    spceficially AVOIDED considering open source
    options, even after the The Ministerial Council
    on Education, Employment, Training and Youth
    Affairs (http://www.mceetya.edu.au/)
    SPECIFICALLY asked them to prepare such a plan
    for open source in 2003 and NOT ONE of the
    Departments did so?

    Don't you begin to smell a rat, too?

  22. Perhaps some bureaucrats may be fearful of switching schools to open source software. However, I think that it has more to do with the rumors that Linux is more complex than Windows to learn and use. I disagree with the notion that children will have more Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    Perhaps some bureaucrats may be fearful of switching schools to open source software. However, I think that it has more to do with the rumors that Linux is more complex than Windows to learn and use. I disagree with the notion that children will have more trouble learning to use a Linux operating system. After all there are those of us that learned to use a computer in a command-line DOS environment... We learned to use a PC in a far more complex environment than what kids today have. Kids are bright; they will have no troule learning to use Linux on the desktop.

    Now, as far as the teachers being unwilling to learn new software. Why do the taxpayers have to pay the wages of some burned-out, lazy bums who aren't willing to WORK for their paychecks? After all it was these same teachers who went to school during the command-line era, and had made the decision to be a teacher. That was their choice, they knew that re-education in their job field was going to be part of their job. It should not fall on the taxpayers shoulders to continue paying out their rears for those instructor's l****itude. What should happen is that those teachers should be given an ultimatum... Either learn to teach the new software or you can stay at your same salary for the next 20 years as we won't be able to afford any pay increase for you due to software expenditures.

    Ultimately, it's the parent's choice whether or not they want their kids to continue being taught by teachers who are too lazy to learn new things to teach. Because when hundreds of thousands of angry taxpayers yell at the government in unison. The government really has little choice but to listen, and take action. After all no government, not even a monarchy is interested in losing tax revenues. If the parents speak together, the bureaucrats will listen.

  23. "Additionally, teachers also know that they will need to learn a whole swag of new software, with minimal time and support." That's a deal-breaker right there. Teachers should spend their time teaching. Not 'learning a whole swag of Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    "Additionally, teachers also know that they will need to learn a whole swag of new software, with minimal time and support."

    That's a deal-breaker right there. Teachers should spend their time teaching. Not 'learning a whole swag of new software'. Software is peripheral to the whole raison-de-etre of a teacher, or of a Department of Education. (Yes, I'm an American, but we have this debate over here too you know)

    So instead of dismissing the single most cogent argument opposed to Linux (or Apple or FreeBSD or ANY other software solution), I think you should tell us how you think they could implement this with the minimum disruption of the teacher's prime mission- educating students. It's not a small thing.

  24. Oh come on! Give me a break you bureaucrats! Are you sure you even have the balls to fight for your own freedom and future? You sure you guys can fight terrorists when you won't fight a US-based corporation? Go read the book, US vs. Microsoft p Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    Oh come on! Give me a break you bureaucrats! Are you sure you even have the balls to fight for your own freedom and future? You sure you guys can fight terrorists when you won't fight a US-based corporation?

    Go read the book, US vs. Microsoft published by The New Yor Times ISBN 0-07-135588-X and perhaps that will give you an idea of what you need to do.

    If that book does not inspire you to take action, am I right to say that all you bureaucrats are just taxing your citizens to fill your bellies? Where is your Belief, Courage and Action?

    Wake up my dear friends. The world is rapidly changing. Attainment of Excellence is through caring more than others think is wise. Risking more than others think is safe. Dreaming more than others think is practical and expecting more than others think is possible. And you have to do all this within a world full of rapid change, where the adaptable shall be the sole survivors!

  25. First off this article refers to elementary and secondary schools. Now, about the notion that if students aren't trained in using what is currently in the workforce, then no one will hire them. First off, if all an employer has to cho Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    First off this article refers to elementary and secondary schools.

    Now, about the notion that if students aren't trained in using what is currently in the workforce, then no one will hire them.

    First off, if all an employer has to choose from is potential employees who are trained in Linux. Then the employers will have no choice but to hire those people. Furthermore, Windows is by far a much simpler OS to learn that Linux. Those students who have learned to use Linux will be much more able to learn Windows on the fly. Than to expect a Windows trained student to be able to learn Linux on the fly. The result? You have better employees because they can easier adapt to the other OS. I think that the employers would benefit from having more versatile employees.

    Now, regarding any notions that free software isn't necessarily of intrisic value...

    When you are talking tax monies, then every free boost counts. Education is something that is expensive, especially when it comes to teacher salaries. Year after year, educators expect pay raises. Where does that money come from; taxes. So in this case rather than raising taxes, switch off to something that doesn't cost money, to put that money in the educator's pockets.

    Additionally, as far as quality of education is concerned if instructors aren't willing to learn new things. Then how can students possibly be getting the best education possible? It strikes me that young people need a plethora of varied activities in order to stay interested. It is when these students are interested that they learn best. So why not cut the amount of Windows boxes to a minimum in the educational institutions and introduce free Linux on the majority of boxes? The savings would be more than enough to increase salaries, and even add to the school's coffers.

    Also, regarding the notion that people need to 'fear Microsoft'...

    Microsoft gets away with whatever the people ALLOW Microsoft to get away with. If nobody can see or understand this, then my personal notion that we as humans are by the vast majority, a bunch of blind simpletons is right on target. As stated in another post it isn't rocket science to learn any word processor as opposed to Brand X. However, the vast majority believe this to be a rocket science. You can bet that Microsoft knows this and will continue to use the majorities flaws to keep a buch of happy, simple Windows users. But hey, maybe that's what the vast majority enjoy... Being led by the nose like a Bull to whatever the large corporations and bureaucrats decide.

    Wake up and get real everyone, you are simply allowing yourselves to be forced into whatever these entities decide for you... The cure? Stand up and make your opinions known!

  26. Microsoft needs to be cut down to size. This leech of a company has been sucking money out of everyone's pockets for years and only now have people begun to look for alternatives. The main problems of swithching over to open source are minimal. Many GU Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    Microsoft needs to be cut down to size. This leech of a company has been sucking money out of everyone's pockets for years and only now have people begun to look for alternatives. The main problems of swithching over to open source are minimal. Many GUI of many opensource applications are designed much like the microsoft ones. One can easily, for example, find all of the same tools in OpenOffice as he/she can in Word. Also the desktops are very reminiscent of both Mac and Windows...depending on the one you decide to run. In short the government and schools need to open their eyes and look past these minor ( if any ) setbacks. People can adapt. Especially if their paycheck is bigger because of the money that was saved.
    note: that is not my main email...just a spam one

  27. What annoys me most is that the education establishment is supposed to be providing an *education*, and, at the very least, the computing cl****es in all high schools should have just about as much Linux-based as MS-based stuff taught, otherwise they are Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    What annoys me most is that the education establishment is supposed to be providing an *education*, and, at the very least, the computing cl****es in all high schools should have just about as much Linux-based as MS-based stuff taught, otherwise they are just creating consumers for Microsoft (for which MS should be paying them, not the other way around!).

    I began my computing life based on MS and VB and Access, etc. Since then switched to Linux, Perl, MySQL etc. The reason? There is no freedom in it and I don't think there is any future in it where you are not ripping somebody off. So it's not like I'm some FOSS fanatic, I began in the MS sphere, I tried it, and in the end I hated it. Basically, I had to learn about the alternative myself, and it infuriates me that schools still don't provide this opportunity when clearly, as *educational* institutions, they should.

    Especially since I never really learned a damned thing using MS. My real knowledge came from the time since I switched to Linux. Linux teaches you real skills (a lot which you can transfer back to Windows if you like). Windows largely teaches you how to be a consumer and not much more.

  28. Here is another way to spin this discussion. Without Microsoft, Open Source would have nothing to clone from, ideas to copy from and opposing products to develop. Without SCO and others (Unix, Xenix, Minix etc) Linus would have had nothing to clone f Anonymous -- 15/05/05

    Here is another way to spin this discussion. Without Microsoft, Open Source would have nothing to clone from, ideas to copy from and opposing products to develop.
    Without SCO and others (Unix, Xenix, Minix etc) Linus would have had nothing to clone from to develop Linux.

    So when you all say inovation I really wonder what it is that Open Source has developed that hasn't already existed on a proprietory system, from Sun, Novell, Microsoft, Apple, IBM, HP and every other vendor out there that existed more then 10 years ago, and has continued to move their products forward over time.

  29. This problem in the upper levels of the education beaurocracy is not limited to Australia. Its definitely present here in California. Another large problem with deploying FLOSS in a school environment is the virtical market software used by schools. It Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    This problem in the upper levels of the education beaurocracy is not limited to Australia. Its definitely present here in California. Another large problem with deploying FLOSS in a school environment is the virtical market software used by schools. It runs on windows, and if you're luck, sometimes on mac. This is a catch 22, because until more schools deploy FLOSS to the desktop, we won't see 3rd-party vendor support there. Schools won't deploy FLOSS until the vendor support is there. Also, virtually all internally developed and distributed dept of education applications are deployed to windows only, and these are applications that we are required to use.

    Some forward thinking vendors are deploying applications via the web rather than client software, which in my opinion is a much smarter long term strategy. As long as the developers don't use single-browser or single-platform browser techniques.

    We are almost exclusively FLOSS on all our servers, which has saved us tens of thousands in CAL's alone, not to mention the security advantages, but despite mentioning this to my immediate administration, does not seem to carry much weight.

  30. John, consultant, USA. You say: "Here is another way to spin this discussion. Without Microsoft, Open Source would have nothing to clone from, ideas to copy from and opposing products to develop." What have you been Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    John, consultant, USA.

    You say:

    "Here is another way to spin this discussion. Without Microsoft, Open Source would have nothing to clone from, ideas to copy from and opposing products to develop."

    What have you been smoking, friend? Microsoft is the King of Cloners. At least Open Source came up the the Internet, the single most important creation of 60 years of IT.

    More importantly, your comments are a red herring. Most horizontal software is now a commodity. Why shouls schools pay millions for something you can get for free?

    It's like removing the taps from schools and forcing schools councils to pay for foreign/imprted bottled water.

    Just makes zero sense.

  31. John: Consultant, that is the exact reason that companies like IBM and Cisco have switched to Linux and why the US military in their "Windows-only" operations use Linux. Because it costs them more money. Haha. IBM is the largest comput Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    John: Consultant, that is the exact reason that companies like IBM and Cisco have switched to Linux and why the US military in their "Windows-only" operations use Linux. Because it costs them more money. Haha.

    IBM is the largest computer company in the world and one of the things that entitles is knowing something about money. IBM did initial research and testing to determine if it would be beneficial for them to switch... and they switched. What does that tell you?

  32. If IBM really switched and are selling Open Source to its customers for the greater good of the world ask them to open source websphere, db2 and sell HP hardware when asked to. The greater good should mean these other things are less important...I think n Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    If IBM really switched and are selling Open Source to its customers for the greater good of the world ask them to open source websphere, db2 and sell HP hardware when asked to. The greater good should mean these other things are less important...I think not. IBM will do anything to sell its hardware, maintenance and software products. If open source enables them to sell more of it (short term or long term :-)) you can guarantee they will. HP is no different.

  33. Microsoft may be king of cloners, but it does give the Open Source world something to target when it competes, because it is all about reputation and competing, maybe not because that makes the Open Source world just the same doesn't it. Linux c Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    Microsoft may be king of cloners, but it does give the Open Source world something to target when it competes, because it is all about reputation and competing, maybe not because that makes the Open Source world just the same doesn't it.

    Linux competes with Windows, Open Office competes with Office, MySQL with SQL, firefoz with IE...the list just goes on and on.

    Please list the Open Source projects that do not have a proprietary cousin whether from Microsoft or anybody else. I am pretty sure this list is very short but I may be surprised because this would show real value rather than also ran technology.

  34. John the Consultant from USA. Are you a newcomer to the industry or are you deliverately trying to sound silly? You say: "Linux competes with Windows, Open Office competes with Office, MySQL with SQL, firefoz with IE...t Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    John the Consultant from USA.

    Are you a newcomer to the industry or are you deliverately trying to sound silly?

    You say:

    "Linux competes with Windows, Open Office competes with Office, MySQL with SQL, firefoz with IE...the list just goes on and on."

    Here are some facts for you dude:

    1) Microsoft didn't write SQL Server. Sybase did.

    2) Microsoft didn't write the first computer word processor, spreadsheet, end-user database or presentation program. Other firms did.

    3) Microsoft did no invent the web browser.

    Do you want to be taken seriously in this discussion?

    Yes?

    Then buy some clue.

    Sheesh.

  35. "Then buy some clue"...so kaypoh; my bit of Singlish for you I didn't say Microsoft was the first nor the last to copy ideas or wrote "equivalent" software, in fact Xerox by rights owns the whole Windowing interface (Apple, M Anonymous -- 16/05/05

    "Then buy some clue"...so kaypoh; my bit of Singlish for you

    I didn't say Microsoft was the first nor the last to copy ideas or wrote "equivalent" software, in fact Xerox by rights owns the whole Windowing interface (Apple, Microsoft, X, Motif et al, they have all copied here), what I said was they Microsoft gives Open Source the target it needs to get credibility and mind share by attacking the leader of the market. What I did ask was in what way was Open Source being inventive by creating software that doesn't already exist in a commercial or proprietary format...Something new, unthought of before, not just a different version of the same!!!!

  36. Hello from up North! Your school system is not the only one in this predicament. I am on the faculty of a college in the US and unfortunately we are being forced into an all-MS network, eMail, etc... system in order to meet the standardization r Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    Hello from up North!

    Your school system is not the only one in this predicament. I am on the faculty of a college in the US and unfortunately we are being forced into an all-MS network, eMail, etc... system in order to meet the standardization requirements of a higher-up information technology office. I don't know that the administrators have grip on the implications of this decision.

  37. John, Consultant from USA, you say: "I didn't say Microsoft was the first nor the last to copy ideas or wrote "equivalent" software, in fact Xerox by rights owns the whole Windowing interface (Apple, Microsoft, X, Motif Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    John, Consultant from USA,

    you say:

    "I didn't say Microsoft was the first nor the last to copy ideas or wrote "equivalent" software, in fact Xerox by rights owns the whole Windowing interface (Apple, Microsoft, X, Motif et al, they have all copied here)."

    Actually, you are wrong. The windowing system metaphor, mouse etc, came from Douglas Englebart in the late 60s while he was at SRI, well before Xerox @ PARC. Go do some research.

    You also say:

    "what I said was they Microsoft gives Open Source the target it needs to get credibility and mind share by attacking the leader of the market. What I did ask was in what way was Open Source being inventive by creating software that doesn't already exist in a commercial or proprietary format...Something new, unthought of before, not just a different version of the same!!!!"

    You are wrong here too.

    Open source is producing software in modes of use which have existed well before Microsoft got into the act. While some apps, OpenOffice.org, are designed to make it easier for users to switch from existing Microsoft equivalents, that's the whole point. They need to look similar to achieve this aim.

    As for you last comment, you obviously didn't read a previous posters note. The open source community developed the single most impressive technology in the computer space: The Internet.

    By comparison, what novel and wonderful technologies has Microsoft created, in 30 years, with its much vaunted R & D spending?

    That's right: bupkiss; zero; zilch; nada; nix; sweet FA.

    Enjoy ;-)

  38. I wouldn't bother trying to argue with them John... The majority are little kiddies who have no idea how the real world works, and have created a kind of religion where they all gather around (online or off) building and focusing their hatred on Microsoft Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    I wouldn't bother trying to argue with them John... The majority are little kiddies who have no idea how the real world works, and have created a kind of religion where they all gather around (online or off) building and focusing their hatred on Microsoft, in a kind of open source hatefest. They recycle the same circular arguments and conspiracy theories, calling anybody who dares display an impartial opinion of MS a lacky, M$ employee, etc... It really gets old after a while. Oh, and as you've experienced, they avoid responding to any valid points you bring up and only respond to the ones which they can twist to support their argument.

  39. Jason Green, I read the respondents to John from USA's comments. They all seemed accurate and reasonable. What was your problem with them? Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    Jason Green,

    I read the respondents to John from USA's comments.

    They all seemed accurate and reasonable.

    What was your problem with them?

  40. Jason Green! Buddy! Maaaaate! What took you all this time to post an anti-Linux comment? What's up? Asleep at the wheel of the Trollmobile? Larf! Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    Jason Green!

    Buddy! Maaaaate!

    What took you all this time to post an anti-Linux comment?

    What's up? Asleep at the wheel of the Trollmobile?

    Larf!

  41. Oh i'm not anti-linux. I'm anti linux-fanboy. You see, the majority of people commenting on largely technical and programming issues have never touched a compiler in their life, but feel it is neccesary to put in their 2cents anyway. Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    Oh i'm not anti-linux.

    I'm anti linux-fanboy.

    You see, the majority of people commenting on largely technical and programming issues have never touched a compiler in their life, but feel it is neccesary to put in their 2cents anyway. Regardless of whether they know what they are talking about or not.

  42. Funny enough I am still waiting for just one application to be listed that shows me that Open Source is actually creating something new, not just an image of something that already exists in somebody elses product. Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    Funny enough I am still waiting for just one application to be listed that shows me that Open Source is actually creating something new, not just an image of something that already exists in somebody elses product.

  43. John, Consultant from the USA! Here's what you said: "Funny enough I am still waiting for just one application to be listed that shows me that Open Source is actually creating something new, not just an image of something that alr Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    John, Consultant from the USA!

    Here's what you said:

    "Funny enough I am still waiting for just one application to be listed that shows me that Open Source is actually creating something new, not just an image of something that already exists in somebody elses product."

    Friend. you must either be deaf or blind.

    I've seen at least _two_ posters reply to your question.

    The answer they gave was that the open source mob created the whole Internet; the open source protocols, the reference implementations of code, released as open source etc.

    Which part of this answer do you not understand?
    Or are you just pretending to be stupid?

    Can you name ONE thing of equal importance that Microsoft has ever created?

  44. Hoi, Jason Green, you say "Oh i'm not anti-linux. I'm anti linux-fanboy." Being against the Linux community is the same as being against Linux. Period. It's like saying I'm not against all of Australia, I'm merely against all Australia Anonymous -- 17/05/05

    Hoi, Jason Green, you say "Oh i'm not anti-linux. I'm anti linux-fanboy."

    Being against the Linux community is the same as being against Linux. Period. It's like saying I'm not against all of Australia, I'm merely against all Australians.

    You also say:

    "You see, the majority of people commenting on largely technical and programming issues have never touched a compiler in their life, but feel it is neccesary to put in their 2cents anyway. Regardless of whether they know what they are talking about or not."

    And why should someone need to know anything about programming issues to discuss topics of ICT procurement among government bodies? I presume you actually read the article?

    I too am a vendor looking at selling into the public school sector, and if the Departments of Education are not opening their markets to more than one vendor, that negatively effects me and my staff. I don't need to know anything about programming to dicuss such a topic.

    Perhaps you should pay more attention to the topic under discussion before bagging the posters in this forum next time.

  45. To J Strong What is your compelling event or business value proposition that makes what you sell more compelling than what they have today. Let talk about this first and maybe we can help you sell into what seems to be a closed market. Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    To J Strong

    What is your compelling event or business value proposition that makes what you sell more compelling than what they have today.

    Let talk about this first and maybe we can help you sell into what seems to be a closed market.

  46. BusinessMan. you asked: "What is your compelling event or business value proposition that makes what you sell more compelling than what they have today." My competing 'business value proposition' is a competitor to Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    BusinessMan.

    you asked:

    "What is your compelling event or business value proposition that makes what you sell more compelling than what they have today."

    My competing 'business value proposition' is a competitor to Microsoft's software stack. And since the state education departments do not go to tender for all the business they choose to give on a platter to Microsoft, I can't compete.

    Get them to go to open tender, and I'll have a chance.

  47. John said: > Funny enough I am still waiting for just one application to be listed that shows me that Open Source is actually creating something new, not just an image of something that already exists in somebody elses product. When Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    John said:

    > Funny enough I am still waiting for just one application to be listed that shows me that Open Source is actually creating something new, not just an image of something that already exists in somebody elses product.

    When you say "somebody elses", I know you mean Microsoft's :-)

    Where is the Windows equivalent of yum/rpm/apt (etc.) and the whole mirror distibution model? Where are the live CDs of Windows? Where is Windows equivalent of a kernel that can mount more file systems than you can poke a stick at? Where is the equivalent of SELinux? Where is the equivalent of Xen (and not from Xen)? Where is Windows equivalent of SSH (and not a recompile)? Where on Earth is a decent shell, John? No, the cmd.exe crap does not count. Just a FEW examples of how the community innovates... But how would you know?

    And why, John, can't we see the source of Windows? Because, John, if you knew how to read that (the source), you would see that FOSS has one feature proprietary software will never have - an innovation beyond what you can understand - the ultimate ability to learn, improve and fix. Our software has a feature built in that enables it to outlive ANY proprietary software out there. It also enables our kids (and yours too) to actually learn how it's REALLY done.

    Isn't that worth a look for people that are in the business of education?

  48. Finally after all the blather an answer. You are actually wrong here in some ways "And why, John, can't we see the source of Windows? Because, John, if you knew how to read that (the source), you would see that FOSS has one featur Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Finally after all the blather an answer.

    You are actually wrong here in some ways

    "And why, John, can't we see the source of Windows? Because, John, if you knew how to read that (the source), you would see that FOSS has one feature proprietary software will never have - an innovation beyond what you can understand - the ultimate ability to learn, improve and fix. Our software has a feature built in that enables it to outlive ANY proprietary software out there. It also enables our kids (and yours too) to actually learn how it's REALLY done. "

    Shared Source actually allows ISV's, governments, hardware providers and many others the ability to see Microsoft sourcecode...you just can't clone it, disclose it, share it, ir fix it directly (there are channels for this, but yes if you are an appropriate individual or organisation you can, and many have

  49. Con never mentions the most important word of all: "Content." There's plenty of educational sofwtare for Windows and Mac OS? How much for Linux ... ? Various folks are trying to address this situation, but there is simply not Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Con never mentions the most important word of all: "Content."

    There's plenty of educational sofwtare for Windows and Mac OS? How much for Linux ... ?

    Various folks are trying to address this situation, but there is simply not much out there at the moment.

    Educators care more about content than source code.

    Far-sighted members of the open source community are tackling this issue already, in the knowledge that they will get a far better hearing from educators once they have more to tell them than "the software system is free."

  50. > Shared Source actually allows ISV's, governments, hardware providers and many others the ability to see Microsoft sourcecode...you just can't clone it, disclose it, share it, ir fix it directly (there are channels for this, but yes if you are an appr Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    > Shared Source actually allows ISV's, governments, hardware providers and many others the ability to see Microsoft sourcecode...you just can't clone it, disclose it, share it, ir fix it directly (there are channels for this, but yes if you are an appropriate individual or organisation you can, and many have

    Well, I'm obviously an "inappropriate" individual, given I cannot see it. :-)

    I trust you'll spare us the "share source is better than open source" spiel - we've heard it all before. It's a lame excuse from Microsoft's marketing department - I think that about covers it.

  51. John, the consultant from USA, is keeping us entertained here. Here is the funny part of one of his replies (unimportant bits removed for brevity): "Shared Source actually allows [snip] the ability to see Microsoft sourcecode...you just can Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    John, the consultant from USA, is keeping us entertained here. Here is the funny part of one of his replies (unimportant bits removed for brevity):

    "Shared Source actually allows [snip] the ability to see Microsoft sourcecode...you just can't [snip] share it [snip]"

    Thanks John - the best thing I read all day ;-)

  52. Simon Shardwood, this post is in response to your post. You mention in your post: "Con never mentions the most important word of all: "Content." There's plenty of educational sofwtare for Windows and Mac OS? How much Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Simon Shardwood, this post is in response to your post.

    You mention in your post:

    "Con never mentions the most important word of all: "Content." There's plenty of educational sofwtare for Windows and Mac OS? How much
    for Linux ... ?"

    I've got a couple of kids in school, so know what you mean. But let me say this, as the kids move from lower primary up, they need less and less of the 'content' type applications and more and more general purpose applications.

    Additionally, I've noticed that Linux and open source have hundreds of sometimes fantastic apps (Science, maths, language, 3D graphics etc.) all available for free.

    So, here's what you do. You replace 80% of the Windows systems at the school with Linux. You lock that down, removing possibilities for muckups from the kids, remove chances for viruses etc.

    (Techupdate reported that Linux required 75% lower staff effort to support and maintain than Windows.
    http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2907876,00.html)

    You don't really need all those PCs to be running Here Comes Spot. You also keep your Macs and Windows on the other 20% of PCs to run your 'content'.

    Does that make sense Simon?

    Would that achieve the aims of continuing to offer 'content' where it's needed, yet greatly reducing overall costs?

    Please let me know if you still have problems with this concept.

  53. Of course you cannot share it that is what IP protection is all about. This is not cloneware from SCO. This is a commercial in confidence access which you agree to respect when you sign up. I am waiting for Novell Netware, MVS, OS400 etc to of Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    Of course you cannot share it that is what IP protection is all about. This is not cloneware from SCO. This is a commercial in confidence access which you agree to respect when you sign up.

    I am waiting for Novell Netware, MVS, OS400 etc to offer the same rights for proprietary software to be viewed, what do you think the chances are?

  54. I have no problem with your argument, Han Nover, aside from the fact that network administrators hate complexity. Indeed, the NSW Teachers' Federation yesterday said it worries about having insufficient resources to sustain current compute Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    I have no problem with your argument, Han Nover, aside from the fact that network administrators hate complexity.

    Indeed, the NSW Teachers' Federation yesterday
    said it worries about having insufficient resources to sustain current computer instalations.

    Of course Open Source might be one answer for that dilemna if, as expected, it delivers lower support costs. I don't, however, see RedHat or Novell banking on support costs being lower for Linux than their rivals charge on other OSes.

    And I don't see a mixed network of Windows and Linux helping shcools find the resources to manage computers and deliver effective education.

    I think it is also important to recognise that content goes beyond "courseware."

    The whole point of teaching kiddies computing basics like how to use spreadsheets is to make them ready for the workplace.

    That's why schools in NSW teach MS Office.

    Sure it would nice if OOo were more prevalent and thereore a better option for the curriculum. But today it aint and it'll be a long time before a department of education is doing employers a service by making it the standard competency.

    None of this means I am anti-Linux or anti Open source.

    I use open source products. I promote Creative Commons. I have recommended Open Source products in articles I have written. I have volunteered my services to the open source community.

    I do so because I believe in this mode of production. But endlessly carping on that OSS is cheaper and better simply does not convert people to the cause or advance it.

  55. John from USA. I'm noticing a pattern with your pasts friend... You on a hobby horse or something? I read from your post: "Of course you cannot share it that is what IP protection is all about. This is not cloneware fro Anonymous -- 18/05/05

    John from USA.

    I'm noticing a pattern with your pasts friend... You on a hobby horse or something?

    I read from your post:

    "Of course you cannot share it that is what IP protection is all about. This is not cloneware from SCO. This is a commercial in confidence
    access which you agree to respect when you sign up."

    But that's what open source gives to the consumers, a guarantee that no single vendor can lock that user in. What's the point of Shared Source then? Where's the freedom in Shared Source? As a consumer of IT, I want more freedom from vendors and freedom with solutions - it's good business sense.

    You also noted:

    "I am waiting for Novell Netware, MVS, OS400 etc to offer the same rights for proprietary software to be viewed, what do you think the chances are?"

    Why do I care? Linux and open source give us all the source code and rights we need. For all many of us in the industry care, OS400, MVS and Netware can die as can Windows.

  56. Simon, you said: "Of course Open Source might be one answer for that dilemna if, as expected, it delivers lower support costs. I don't, however, see RedHat or N