ACT Greens MP demands Firefox

Canberra's shared services organisation InTACT came under fire at the state's budget estimates for not allowing members of the Legislative Assembly to use Mozilla's popular browser Firefox.

(Promoting Firefox 3 like there is no tomorrow image by gorriti, CC2.0)

The deputy chair of the state's estimates committee, Greens MP Caroline Le Couteur, made her complaint at a hearing last month, pointing out that one of the state's procurement guidelines was a commitment to open source software.

"What efforts do we make to fulfil that requirement? I am thinking here particularly of a piece of software that does not even cost money, Firefox, which InTACT, I am told, refuses to let us have on our computers," she said.

"It is a nice piece of open source software which I use at home, and Mr Coe [another committee member] has informed me he does also. We would like to be able to use it. Why can't we?" she continued.

InTACT general manager Michael Chisnall said that his organisation hadn't lapsed in its commitment to open source software. He said that InTACT was using open source software and that more and more tenders included open-source elements to them. Yet the licensing costs weren't the largest cost of owning the software, he said.

"As I am wont to say to my colleagues back at InTACT, there is no such thing as free software. When we look at those positions, we always try and take in a total cost of ownership model. Indeed, the advice from places like Gartner and so on is that in some cases the open source total cost of ownership is on par with the proprietary product if you take into account the total lifetime cost," he said.

He was unable to comment on Firefox, but said that it wasn't possible to support every product. He said he'd take the problem on notice and look into it. Le Couteur agreed that it wasn't possible to support every product, but argued that she would like to install Firefox whether she received support or not.

"I do appreciate that support can be a major cost component, but where you are thinking about things like Firefox, which are end-user tools, would it be possible to have a situation where they were allowed to be installed, but just not supported? So if I have a problem with Firefox, you are not going to help me."

Chisnall said that this issue came up often in schools where the government couldn't support software but didn't want to kill creative student initiatives. "Our level of support in relation to those activities is obviously different from a government-sponsored and supported area. I refer to this as the sandpit proposition. Certainly, I am happy to take that suggestion and give it some more thought and respond," he said.

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Talkback 19 comments

    ZDNet still suck Anonymous -- 25/06/09

    The ACT is the Australian Capital Territory, not a state. This isn't exactly a difficult thing to get right. How many times did you use 'state' in the one article? Pathetic.

    The reason Firefox isn't used in enterprise environments is that Mozilla haven't made it easy to centrally configue, manage and update. It's geared towards home users (unfortunately).
    IE is easily configured via group policy, easily updated.
    Mozilla need to better support corporate environments, then it will get deployed.

    In addition, it's common for intranet web sites to be tested only against the corporately deployed browser, and it's still common for some corporate software to require ActiveX controls and/or specific versions of Java and other such restrictions.

    Exactly Thomas -- 25/06/09 (in reply to #320145543)

    I cringe at the thought of deploying firefox in a corporate environment.

    Unfortunatly I don't think Carolyn thinks much of group policy, or web standards or the man hours it takes to get some applications to work with just one standard browser. I think she read 'open source' in the Sunday mail and now considers herself an expert on the matter.

    Imagine how many tax payer dollars could go to waste because Carolyn likes to use Firefox on her home computer?

    It is frustrating when end-users ask those questions 'Why not' and you have to explain all of the above and still they don't understand.

    One day I'm going to ring up that accountant that thinks he should be running Ubuntu on his work laptop and ask him why he raised that Purchase Order that way - can't you do it another way? Why?

    @Exactly steve -- 26/06/09 (in reply to #320145553)

    IE can be configured by group policy assuming Active Directory installed. If there is no AD then you are on your own.

    MS does not support web standards they do however support Microsoft standards. The two are not the same.

    Open source software will not be deployed into corporate environments until management and IT staff understand that there are alternatives and not just listen to the sales pitch from Microsoft.

    Total Cost of Ownership Anonymous -- 26/06/09

    When Australian government and quasi-government procurement officials talk about 'Total Cost of Ownership' they mean the personal 'cost' to themselves. Open Source software providers and not in the habit of providing the bribe and kickbacks that such officials nearly always demand.

    Here is a question for you private business operators out there who have sold IT equipment and services to the government:
    How many times have government procument officials NOT asked for some form of 'consideration'?

    I know in my 20 odd years in business, only 4 (can count them on one hand!) did not solicit for a bribe.

    Tax dollars spent for using free product? really? Anonymous -- 26/06/09

    @Thomas

    "Imagine how many tax payer dollars could go to waste because Carolyn likes to use Firefox on her home computer?"

    What tax dollars Thomas? Only those not poured into Microsoft coffers?

    Or you are just afraid that all your MS certs will suddenly becomes worthless?

    Not at all Thomas -- 26/06/09 (in reply to #320145624)

    If the MS certs I have revolved soley around Internet Explorer I may think that - but luckily for me they encompass a whole lot more. Including understanding how a domain enviroment works.

    Offering support within any corporation costs money funnily enough - ask any Engineer or support technician and they will tell you they have enough to consider when designing and implementing policy, applications and support costs. Do you really think support ends at typing www.google.com into the address bar??

    Adding another application such as Firefox into the mix is certainly not 'free' if that is your assumption. Why add another browser into your environment that needs to configured to conform with web apps or local\group policy? If you want Firefox, you would have to not use IE - only a nutter would spend time and resources on both.

    Don't think for a second I don't love free software - I use plenty of it on my home machine!

    Open source operating systems Anonymous -- 26/06/09

    What a load of rubbish that open source can't be managed centrally.

    Open source based operating systems with all the bells and whistles can be deployed, updated, managed centrally. It has been done for years, its cheaper to maintain and its cheaper to deploy most linux based systems than windows systems. People who do the costing have never had any experience deploying Linux desktops. You can simply walk up to a PC connected to a wired network and press F12 while it is booting. The Linux machine can be reformat, repartition, install, upgraded, and even based on the mac address. Now even if a computer is changed, the hard drive can be taken out of that machine and put straight into the next machine (provided it has similar interfaces) and boot without re-installation. Try doing that on a windows machine without having to resort to ghosting or some other form of time wasting like reinstalling.

    Microsoft designs its software to lock the users in. That why only microsoft software can be deployed and maintained centrally. Its expensive and nasty. There are way too many Windows experts that don't know anything about open source.

    Also, the deputy chair of the state's estimates committee, Greens MP Caroline Le Couteur could have easily deployed her own Portable version of Firefox. For that matter just about every other useful app in the open source world. So IMHO the MP was having a go at the department for not using open source.

    I fully support the Deputy chair for raising the point.

    Missing the point Thomas -- 27/06/09 (in reply to #320145711)

    I don't think anyone is debating that open source is not powerful, nor that it can't be managed centrally.

    Unless I am completely wrong and the government department is all Linux desktops using Konfabulator, then the environment is probably Windows servers and Windows clients ALREADY in place.

    Therefore it is not about building an infrastructure from the ground up, it is about a system that is in place, and adding to that system a piece of software that needs to be supported - and for no valid reason other than she 'uses it at home'.

    Again, for the hard of hearing - Deploying Firefox into a WINDOWS domain will cost money in terms of:

    1. Writing exceptions in group policy for two browsers. That's Dollars.
    2. Conforming web apps to display properly in Firefox (Intranet, web based software for example) Thats big dollars.
    3. Editing whatever method is used to deploy security patches (restricting more bandwidth as you now have TWO browsers to worry about)
    More dollars.
    4. Extending the help desk support scope to now include Firefox - Training support staff to troublshoot errors. More Dollars.
    5. Training staff - and they will have issues. More Dollars.

    They are just some examples, in my humble opinion enough to say no to the question raised. Companies have an approved software list for a reason, to avoid costs such as these.

    re: redefining the real point. mike smith -- 29/06/09 (in reply to #320145822)

    Perhaps if web devs didn't write non-conformant (this means ActiveX / IIS specific) web apps there would not be a need to re-write said apps to match browsers that already conform. IE have a reputation of being non-conforming.

    A classic assumption Robert McKenzie -- 29/06/09 (in reply to #320145822)

    Continuing to use proprietary software because that what works best with your your existing vendor lock-in proprietary software is to completely miss the point that you now have no choice.

    Makes about as much sense as the "we do it that way because that's the way it's always been done around here" line.

    Yes, kick-out the M$ non-conforming apps Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 29/06/09 (in reply to #320146309)

    I agree fully, that ONLY by having fully standards-compliant apps (eg Firefox) as part of the mix will there be any pressure to not remain fully-vendor-locked-in. As soon as one understands that the 'real costs' are in vendor-lock-in (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in), one needs to enforce standards to prevent on-going lock-in.

    Besides, proper analysis consistently shows that the open-source solutions have far lower total cost of ownership than the M$ route.... in part because open source apps are so stable, as there is no need for 'new apps' to justify new-look version, to get extra re-licensing fees.

    The InTACT manager was just parroting what M$ claimed that licence fees are only a small part.... but he was plain wrong on TOC.

    Plus, who has right to teach our next generation on proprietary lock-in, when vendor-neutral options are there and cheaper.

    The ACT has NO commitment to Open Source if it is blocking wide adoption of Firefox or Open Office.. both of which it will find are far lower cost to support than their proprietary equivalents.

    I think the InTACT manager ought return to his "sandbox" for suggesting that the best, most standards-compliant browser is some form of child's plaything. Shame, shame, shame.

    Still missing the point! Thomas -- 29/06/09 (in reply to #320146336)

    These are all valid assumptions and very real if the infrastructure is not in place. You don't add to the mix if there is a method in place that works - purely to say 'We support open source'. And don't forget open source can be modified (addons etc) You do not want that on a corporate network. It's ridiculous.

    Open source does not only extend to client apps like Firefox or Open Office. Server and data base like Appache or Mysql that can be added to the mix effectively. Why not look at that?

    On another note, it could be true that Open office cost far less than say Office 2007 - but it is far from being a product as sophisticated.
    I have never seen an open source vs proprietory software TOC article that is unbiased and shows real data that implementation, on going support, training and ROI is better or worse in either case.

    Show me that and I'll shutup.

    IE8 has problems with IE6 renedering Peter -- 29/06/09 (in reply to #320145822)

    Applications that are old and are designed to meet IE6 requirements for UI design and rendering are being found that they need an IE6 switch thrown into the mix to run them with IE8 MS is moving to compatibility as Firefox was pushing and Chrome is pushing them further. Application rendering is becoming less of an issue, except for government where often they attempt to wring every last dollar out of something and then have a problem they cant deploy the newer browsers as they have applications that rely on them. If they had built to W3C standard back then instead of getting sucked into the "it runs with IE" deal they wouldn't have those problems. BTW the original poster pretty much did say that because of the lack of central management then IE was much better. That line of thinking is pretty much one of two things, I will defend the status quo either because it's good for me in income or I don't have to think about how to adapt new products.

    I don't get it Anonymous -- 29/06/09

    I don't understand the issue here - we have the ability to install programs at work, we install firefox, chrome, or whichever browser we want to use. I personally use firfefox - if a link/website doensn't work, I try IE. There is no support - I don't expect it. I just want the freedom to install the browser of my choice, which I've done (as has everyone else).
    Oh, our corporate environment has over 25,000 P.C's/Laptops, so it's not a small place.....

    @ I don't get it! Anonymous -- 29/06/09 (in reply to #320146318)

    The issue is clear..

    Your Corp IT is flexible.
    The bureaucratic heavy handed attitude at InTACT is INflexible. Maybe they're also getting a kickback?

    BTW try the Firefox Addon "IE Tab", to switch engines, if a page designed for IE's M$ standard!! wont render. A mouse click is all that's needed to switch the rendering engine back & forth without leaving Firefox.

    I know you don't get it! Thomas -- 29/06/09 (in reply to #320146422)

    I guess its a matter of sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'lalalalalalala' when your corporate IT guy says no to something like Firefox. After all, you have heard about web standards, and you even know that FireFox is open source! So you MUST be an expert.

    That same IT guy probably uses Firefox at home as his primary browser, but knows a little - maybe even a lot about his workplace network. Maybe even more than you! The end user! Imagine that.

    This article is about introducing another piece of software into an environment and the IT department saying no. I think the first post and subsequent posts have pointed out enough compelling arguments to say no.

    It really is zero about flexibity or bureacracy. It's about functionality, administering, security and support.

    Firefox Portable Anonymous -- 29/06/09

    My company (~1000 staff) doesn't allow Firefox either, nor are staff allowed to install any apps. So almost everyone uses Firefox Portable. Why did the IT dept bother trying to stop us? Lazy? Stupid? Officious pricks?

    This thread is a laugh. Mel Sommersberg -- 20/07/09

    The point that everyone seems to have missed is that the thrust of this sheila's discussion is that she is a Greenie nutter who is showing us all another way that Greenies manage to buck at authority. Greenies and other loonie lefties like to buck at authority - they are like little children spitting their dummies out.

    There is a reason why Firefox is not available and Thomas got it right. Furthermore to that point why would an IT department in charge of hundreds of machines roll out a seperate drive image for loonies like De Couteur when one image can be used on every machine on the network, assuming they are all the same model.

    To the anonymous troll how thinks that shifting a disc with Windows installed from one machine to another and not expecting it to work - you are dead wrong. Things like video, sound, modem and network card drivers will all automatically upgrade once Windows is booted on the new machine for the first time. I bet my ballsack that Linux can't handle that quite as well.

    The trouble with people who think they knw Linux backwards but really don't is that they also think they know Windows backwards - but they don't know that either.

    greenie nutters and fascist clowns Anonymous -- 20/07/09 (in reply to #320158303)

    she may be a greenie nutter in the eyes of a fascist clown, but even greenie nutters and fascist clowns have good ideas sometimes!

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