Torvalds takes bite of Mac mini

Linus Torvalds has picked up one of Apple's new Intel-based Mac minis to play with, but the Linux creator still prefers Apple's old PowerPC architecture for his primary desktop machine.

"I'm actually still running a G5, but I also have a Mac mini," Torvalds revealed today in an e-mail to ZDNet Australia.

The Linux creator has been running an Apple G5 since at least March 2005, switching from a normal x86-based desktop sometime before that. At that stage he attributed the switch to the importance of IBM's Power architecture as well as a desire to try a new system.

Since then, however, Apple has stopped using PowerPC chips, bringing its machines into line with other vendors by adopting Intel's new x86 multiple-core CPUs.

While Torvalds said he liked the aesthetics of the mini, he still had concerns about Apple's hardware, so the Intel machine remains more of a plaything than anything else.

"I like the design, and it's the right form-factor to be a replacement machine for my wife and daughter, but sadly, Apple screwed up the firmware in various stupid ways," he said.

"I'm not actually willing to really use it myself since it's the old Yonah-based set-up (Intel Core) rather than the newer (and better) Merom (Intel Core 2). So it's kind of a toy to play around with.

"Apple has Core 2-based machines too, but those all have better PC equivalents without the Apple headache, so I'm not interested in them."

Torvalds said Apple had introduced problems by designing its machines in a way that made them different from standard desktop PCs. This had created difficulty getting common open source software (eg X-windows and the GRUB boot manager) to work easily, even using Apple's Boot Camp software to allow multiple operating systems to boot on the same machine.

Apple's decision to use Intel's Extensive Firmware Interface (EFI) has proven particularly problematic. The technology is a replacement for the traditional BIOS PC bootstrapping system.

"They fixed some of it with the firmware upgrade, but it has had various really annoying stupid bugs in it, so quite frankly, I'd rather just have a regular PC in a nice form-factor instead," said Torvalds.

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Talkback 25 comments

    Luddite Anonymous -- 12/10/06

    Essentially, what this article says is that he would rather stick with antiquated PCs using the old BIOS rather than more modern PCs using EFI technology.

    And? Anonymous -- 12/10/06 (in reply to #320070230)

    So what's the problem with that? Such systems still work fine, so why throw that all away if you don't have to?

    modern != better Anonymous -- 12/10/06 (in reply to #320070230)

    Actually, "more modern PCs with EFI" suck in a number of different ways. If you search the Linux Kernel Mailing List (LKML) you will know the technical details.

    In a nutshell, the old BIOS sucks so bad that every modern OS just uses it for booting, and then ignores it altogether and goes on to do its own thing for scanning the machine for PCI cards and so on. EFI, on the other hand, has more features and those features allow some customization by manufacturers (the "Extensible" part in EFI). If some operations start requiring the OS to do EFI calls (unlike the BIOS, which forces nothing), we get into the same kind of mess as ACPI, with the extensions posing parsing problems, and bugs forcing the OS to work around them. ACPI was also supposed to be more "modern" and stuff, but its complexity as revealed itself to pose more problems than the ones that it was supposed to solve.

    So, in this case, the BIOS is actually better, because it doesn't get in the way (and doesn't provide any false hope of solving any problems).

    You need to re-read what Linus said Rodd Clarkson -- 12/10/06 (in reply to #320070230)

    >Essentially, what this article says is that he would
    >rather stick with antiquated PCs using the old BIOS
    >rather than more modern PCs using EFI technology.

    It seems you should re-read the article.

    Yes, Linus commented that the newer EFI technology didn't impress him and was problematic.

    But he also commented that he could get better hardware in PC systems for the same money and that Apple's hardware was more expensive.

    To quote Linus from the article, "Apple has Core 2-based machines too, but those all have better PC equivalents without the Apple headache, so I'm not interested in them."

    In summary, Linus seems unimpressed with Apples offerings because he can get better hardware for the same dollars and he doesn't have to deal with an awkward technology like EFI.

    You also need to re-read Anonymous -- 13/10/06 (in reply to #320070246)

    "But he also commented that he could get better hardware in PC systems for the same money and that Apple's hardware was more expensive."

    Where in the article is this talk of "more expensive" and money being a factor? Perhaps he has said these things elsewhere but the article does not contain this assertion.

    Bugs Craig -- 13/10/06 (in reply to #320070273)

    That does seem to be the case. Personally I've been hoping for the BIOS to die for some time, but Torvalds evidently doesn't agree.

    HOWEVER, he also seems to take issue with the fact that the machine's firmware is BUGGY. From what I've heard elsewhere, VERY buggy, and conforming extremely poorly to the EFI specification.

    Linus' take Anonymous -- 12/10/06

    That's not the way I understood it. He is saying is that becuse it has some annoying bugs in the way Apple implemented the new technology that he'd rather avoid it and stick with a traditional PC based system that works great as is.

    Mac mini is QUIET! Anonymous -- 12/10/06

    I love the Mac mini because it is quiet. Silence. Peace. Great!

    Who cares what Torvalds says! Peter Zieseniss -- 12/10/06

    Just a reminder: this is the same guy who said the iPod was never going to take off; that Apple was switching to Intel because they wanted to get out of the OS business and just use Windows; and he comes out nearly every other year to announce that 'this year will see the death of Apple for sure'.
    Honestly, how could someone be that biased against a computer manufacturer! I could swear he just bought Apple computers to somehow legitimize his constant cacophony of insults and nay-saying towards Apple.
    He needs to just stop talking about Apple, it would really help him look less insane.

    Re: Who cares what Torvalds says! David Walsh -- 12/10/06 (in reply to #320070237)

    Are you sure? Can you reference that ?
    Or are you pulling it from your arse ?

    Those comments sound more like John Dvorak.

    d'oh Anonymous -- 14/10/06 (in reply to #320070255)

    My bad!!
    well, I'm embarrassed!

    That is Dvorak who said that...

    But still, come on, buying the cheapest Mac around and saying it's not top quality is a little ridiculous...

    Who cares Anonymous -- 22/12/06 (in reply to #320070237)

    This same Linus was praising how kids getting out of college now will know so much deep knowledge about linux and about how elite these kids will be. Then the interviewer asked him, "isn't the point that we want future operating systems to be simpler and easier to use and not more complicated?". That totally floored Linus and he had to backtrack. Linus is a fantastic technical person but he sees more the trees than the forest.

    Mac mini is QUIET! Anonymous -- 12/10/06

    I love the Mac mini because it is quiet. Silence. Peace. Great!

    ALL COMMENTS ON A PAGE Anonymous -- 12/10/06

    TO ADMINS: this is a horrible talback format. Please, all comments full text on a single page! Thanks.

    On the other hand, the security code really sucks. You get it wrong most of the time!

    hooray dave -- 12/10/06 (in reply to #320070239)

    the man HAS brains

    Out of OS business ? OSX -- 13/10/06

    If Apple get out of OS business Apple is DEAD in one or maximum 2 years !!!

    The Apple hardware is more expensive than the commodity PC hardware. It was the easy of use that keep Apple alive and made people pay extra money for overpriced hardware.

    If they switch to Windows, nobody will be dumb enough to buy one regular Windows computer for the price of two.

    Wrong again Anonymous -- 13/10/06 (in reply to #320070267)

    I think you lived in a hole the last years. Seems like you're as uninformed as my grandmother.

    Do some research before you say something you can't prove:

    http://www.dtgeeks.com/index.php/blogs/comment/mac_pro_vs_dell_precision_the_real_price_comparison

    http://www.systemshootouts.org/shootouts/desktop/2006/0809_dt3200.html

    I'd rather just have a regular PC Anonymous -- 13/10/06

    in a nice form-factor instead," said Torvalds.

    AOpen MiniPC

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/02/mini_vs_mini/

    I'd rather just have a regular PC Anonymous -- 13/10/06

    in a nice form-factor instead," said Torvalds.

    AOpen MiniPC

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/02/mini_vs_mini/

    Work fine Craig -- 13/10/06

    They work fine only in the loosest sense. The BIOS is a teetering stack of hacks upon hacks, filled out with bugs, inconsistencies, and an apalling lack of any actual design. It's nightmarish to maintain, hard to test, and tends to be hacked together and beaten until Windows works then chucked out the door.

    Not pretty.

    A replacement firmware that was clearly specified, TESTABLE to ensure compliance with the specifications, saner to maintain ( let's start with NOT needing to write it all in assembly ), etc would be a big step forward, especially if it retained a legacy BIOS compatibility layer for existing software. EFI is supposed to do that, but being an Intel standard it's apparently extremely complex and otherwise quite problematic. Remember ACPI? Same deal.

    What is this all about anyway? Anonymous -- 19/10/06

    Why is everybody so worried and upset about this article? It's a Thorvalds personal opinion.
    Who cares what he says? If he wants a Mac for his wife and daughter, let him. If he prefers PC's over Mac's, let him.
    This is ending up in another Mac vs. Windows war where a) this war is never going to stop, it's about personal preference and b) we already have enough wars, don't we?

    Who Cares... Anonymous -- 25/10/06

    He clone Minix and Xenix and called it Linux, Mac cloned the real machines into the mini...who cares, is this news worthy

    Well, it's not built for Linus Johan Krüger-Haglert -- 01/11/06

    Well, for Linus EFI might be a problem, being hard to install Linux on might be a problem, but for the people who buy a Mac to run OS X there are no problem.

    Also there aren't much options for the other models if you want to run OS X legally and support Apple, which I would want to.

    Zen of Mac Noah Gift -- 28/08/07

    I wrote about this exact issue on my O'Reilly blog:

    http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/08/zen_of_mac.html

    Linus isn't pro-BIOS Anonymous -- 09/02/08

    Linus isn't saying that he'd rather use BIOS than any new, modern booting system. Remember, he used to use a G5 for a long time, which uses the OpenFirmware system for booting.

    No, he was saying that he doesn't like Apple's implementation of EFI. Sure, he's using a budget Macintel system, but you'd expect the firmware to still be the same as the better quality systems.

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