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Sydney, I do agree with you. I've always been an advocate of choice as to whether to belong to a union or not. Using myself as an example, I am not in a union and I enjoy the same holiday, long service and sick leave entitlements as a union member on an award but there is one slight difference - I get more money.
One thing puzzles me though. If you like arrangements like Telstra is now offering then why do you think KRudd makes a better Prime Minister than Howard? At the end of the day KRudd will take this choice away and force everyone to collectively bargain and be financial members of their appropriate union.
Lord (says it all really) watchdog. Typical disgraceful, selfish attitude.
If previous generations (possibly even your own father and grandfather) had your selfish attitude, you wouldn't have holidays, sick etc
So what are you, Mr me, me, me doing for the next generations (your kids and their's) as unions have previously done for you? Obvioulsy sfa.
Well done, enjoy your more money at your kids expense.
I was once a union member like almost everyone else at the time - twenty years ago. It seemed to make sense at the time but bugger the bloody lot of them. I'm man enough to admit that I left because they did F-all for me.
Are you man enough to admit that you are happy being a union suck just so you can collectively bargain for a pittance and crap working conditions?
In the mean time I am getting good pay and better than average working conditions because I was happy to get off my clacker and earn it instead of being a lazy pr!ck like you believing that the world owed me a living.
All the unions ever did was take a hot poker to the nation's inflation rate whilst bums like wharfies, nurses, teachers and miners got improved pay for sitting on their backsides.
I am not against other people joining a union if they want to. I think it is a bit much for Looney Lefties to get high and mighty when people who work hard end up on better pay than the 'united we stand, divided we fall' brigade.
do you wanna hear something ironic? this proves that everything the hypocrite that is lord watchdog has ever said is blatant lies or plain ***t, because he is now pushing the exact same line as telstra, the company he is supposed to hate with a passion. hahahaha. he even has a new pal sydney lawrence. what next james bell and sjt doing brunch, with graham samuel and sol, hehe.
Who said I hate Telstra? That is a line some of you Telstra fanboys keep resurrecting because you can't debate the substance of the articles on this website intelligently.
The article is about a union push for collective bargaining and all I am trying to get across is that collective bargaining should not be compulsory, for the reasons I outlined and many more.
This is 2008, not 1896. The days of unions dominating the workforce with their thuggery and 50,000-strong marches on Macquarie Street waiving the Southern Cross and Che Guavera banners are over.
In Telstra's case they are offering a choice. Stick with collective bargaining at 3% or sign a contract and get 5 or 6%. It's simple mathematics.
Notice how there was no talk about Telstra eroding conditions? Those getting the better money will get to keep their long service, annual leave and sick leave. What is there to not like about being your own man?
lord watchdog says who said i hate telstra, rara telstra fanboys haha. yet another irony. you don't hate telstra but anyone who says anything nice about them is a fanboi. ok *as you wish* LORD WATCHDOG LOVES TELSTRA AND IS A FANBOY, happy ***head. hehe
Any chance of getting an English translation of that rant?
in english, you are a two faced, closet telstra loving ****head. happy
I'm sure you guys are correct that you're better off without unions. Telstra management thinks they will save $50 million but you guys know more than them, of course.
Yet anothere demonstration of the shallowness of Telstra management capability. Bain recommends a $50M cut to the wages bill and the best Telstra can come up with is to play games with unions in a bid to push wages down.
Everybody keep calm. If a person feels he or she has a suitable situation and is comfortable with their ability to negotiate the sale of their services to an employer that's fine.
However, it is a fact that not all have such qualifications and would need others to speak on their behalf. Whether this be a Union or a fellow workers is for the individual to decide.
We all know the horrifying story of the Tolpuddle Martyrs but thankfully we have in Australia today safety-net provisions that prevent these occurrences. Minimum wages, safety regulations, hours of work etc.
Employment exists because an investor requires labour to perform a task and naturally wants it carried out in the cheapest manner. The employee is selling his labour and will want the best possible price for his service.
In the end how this situation is resolved is up to the the workers concerned and should be democratically voted on. Lord Watchdog the verdict is still under consideration on Mr. Rudd.
I welcome the ability to get away from stupid union domination, I am a hard worker and I know my managers recognise this. Under a union I felt like I was getting nowhere but once I signed an individual agreement I have had 3 pay increases over 5% in the past 3 years meaning my salary has advanced faster then my union loving peers. I have not lost any conditions and am not worried about job security.
In my case the grass is green enough on my side
good luck later once all the dangling carrots are gone, trev.
I have worked for Telstra for just over 15 years and was a union member when I joined.
Since 1997 I have been on a contract and am not paying union fees.
I would estimate that I am about $200,000 better off in income over the years because of my choice to dump the union and the award. If you also consider what I have done with this money I am at least $300,000 better off.
Don't know about the hungry anonymous union bunny but the carrots are still plentiful and fresh.
dont come back sobbing when they decide to send your job offshore then. im sure someone in india will do it for 1/10th of your salary.
Telstra (or any firm for that matter) can sack a union member just as easily as a non-union member. They don't need to give a warning, they don't need to allow for the fact you are paying off a mortage or car loan and they don't even have to care that your wife just had a baby. They can just hand you the blue envelope and show you the door.
It's hard cheese and it's callous, but as I said, any employer can do that to you any time they like, union member or not. Always could and always will.
As for your yarn about India, all the big companies have been doing that for years, not that I like the idea.
yes they can do that union member or not. so if your a telstra (or any other firm for that matter) employee and not a union member and get the sack its you alone against telstra. whereas if in a union its you and 10,000, 20,000 others against telstra, is it sinking in yet.
Because if someone else was getting the sack and I wasn't then I wouldn't care - dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest, etc.
I'm also employable with good qualifications and plenty of experience in my industry so even if I was to get the boot there are plenty of other jobs out there, for the time being anyway. This is assuming that Kevin Rudd doesn't win a second term as Prime Minister of course. Otherwise we'd all probably end up back on the dole.
oh look, he who used to call for cheaper broadband for fairness for all australians, now says he prefers a dod eat dog, ***k you jack approach. perhaps lord watchdog is actually sol trujillo or a cardboard cut out, what a hypocrite. go and sign up at nwat fanboy, hehe
It will never happen to me, only someone else, for I am the Lord - ROTFL.
The way he's changed his tune, sounds like he now has a job at Telstra?
only if telstra have a ***khead department, then he is well and truly qualified to be manager, haha.
Observe my friends the vile vomit that spews from the mouths of the Anti-Telstra clowns when the are challenged.
The dawn appears, the sky brightens and the Anti-Telstra rabble are being exposed for their shabby deception. Time's up deceivers.
Sydney, even you are above this other rabble that post here. Don't lower yourself.
There isn't a single post here in this thread, aside from yours, mine and Trevor's that is well-written, to the point and on topic. It is all vile vomite, to coin a phrase, and none of it serves any worthwhile purpose. It is just space-consuming diatribe from a bunch of oxygenwasters who wouldn't be here if Internet usage required a licence.
It is a shame that most people can't debate issues without resorting to gutter talk.
Yes Lord Watchdog our famous and well loved Australian poet A.B.(Banjo) Paterson described these people perfectly in Clancy of the Overflow when he said " the language uninviting, of the gutter children, fighting".
yes sydney, sad to see you have sided with a complete ****wit like lord watchdog shameful. i thought you had better ethics.
well written, haha what a joke. don't give yourself too much credit cretin, your two faced existence has been found out. you call for communist type regulations on the one hand and claim to be a sol/cain type coneservative on the other. you are disgusting, selfish, grubby little man!
The shocking expressions of hate that have been expressed (anonymously) on ZDNet of late show a degree of unstable mentality.
Fierce debate is good but hate and loathing is another thing atogether. While these vile posters inhabit this Site I certainly will not be continuing further in this discussion.
Being an employee is one thing, a hard working employee is another and an effective employee is completely different. Unions only care about making sure there are employees, they do not care if that person works hard let alone if they work effectively.
Many companies have woken up to this and unions know their survival hinges on keeping the major companies under their control. Telstra just happens to be one of these and one of the most high profile union dominated companies, if it is perceived they are a toothless tiger then the demise of the union mentality will be accelerated.
We can only hope that this happens.
Telstra attempted to deal fairly and evenly with the unions but they kept trying to enter into illegal and immoral side agreements, telstra ended these negotiations as it was clear the unions werent interested in the conditions of their workers, so telstra has taken the unusual step of consulting directly with employees and offering them the same great conditions (if not improved!) that they can feel free to sign up for, as 1 of the largest employers in the telco industry telstra is commited to leading the field in pay conditions and retaining, experienced and skilled staff, and i personally think we should all get behind this great australian company and give them our support!
Yes, Telstra in true blue Australian fashion did the honourable thing and cut off all negotiations with the unions. Of course Telstra didn't do this as a means to have better control of their staff , to exploit work choices or just to save some money, but rather they did it for the benefit of its own employees because naturally Telstra knows what's best. I love you Telstra.
Nice to know you attended the uion discussions with Telstra. The Telstra agenda here is to save $50M from Opex by either outsourcing or wage controls. They need to recover $1600 pa from each employee to meet their targets.
But I am sure you will all be better off dealing directly with Telstra management and you will also save the $10 union fees.
How much does it cost to constantly consort with the unions and their cronies? im sure at least some of these savings will come from lack of union strong handing... as for wage cuts? telstra is offering a very generous 12.5% rise over 3 yrs, while retaining all benifits for employees, perhaps the more lazy incompetent employees will be worse off due to the inclusion of more performance based wages... but surely telstra is responsible for workers who just dont want to work? I mean hard yakka is an aussie way of life and telstra as a true blue company reflects this
I hope you are not implying that union workers are not true blue aussies? Hard yakka has not been the Australian way of life for several generations (you can thank the unions for that!) Certainly there is not much of it in the IT or telecoms industry. I've been in IT since the mid 80s and while I have worked some very long hours don't ever remember breaking into a sweat! (maybe sometimes pulling cales) Before IT I worked my butt off in trades jobs, now that is hard work!
Hard yakka isnt just physical labour my main man, perhaps daryn was referring to the metaphysical struggle that one must undertake when attempting to accomplish a task, paid or otherwise?
Unless the internet has evolved the phrase in some strange way, hard yakka means hard physical work. It never referred to what managers and desk jokeys do. It means doing something that is physically taxing, hot and seaty. Digging holes or moving bricks is hard yakka. Solving complex problems or editing code is not hard yakka!
You've been doing so much Hard Yakka that I think you have bunged up your brain and are cooee from ever having two bob to scratch together to buy yourself a new one. Hard Yakka means hard work and it is not isolated to just physical sweat generating labor.
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As a person who understands and agrees with fair an honest Unionism I am having difficulty with Mr. Lawrence and his desperate efforts to maintain his Union Membership.
I would hope (and expect) that Telstra employees will be given free choice as to the system they wish to employ, and if they accept the Telstra offer so be it.
The days of forced Union Membership are finished as one would expect in a free and open democracy. The Australian worker is not stupid and are certainly capable of making a sensible decision in this matter.