Telstra denies FTTN 15 pc broadband price hike

Broadband prices under a Telstra-owned national fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) network could rise by up to 15 per cent, a report commissioned by the Competitive Carriers Coalition (CCC) — whose members include Macquarie Telecom, iiNet and TransACT — has concluded.

The report, authored by the Centre for International Economics (CIE) — an independent economic consultancy service — concludes that a Telstra-owned FTTN network would likely see a significant increase in consumer broadband prices of up to 15 per cent, and would impact negatively on the Australian economy as a whole.

The report also found that the 15 per cent increase would occur due to Telstra's desire to seek a "high return relative to many other investments in the Australian capital market", basing its findings on comments previously made to The Australian by Telstra CEO Sol Trujillo and head of public policy Phil Burgess, saying the telco would seek a 27 per cent return or "a return north of 18 per cent" respectively.

"I think that an 18% rate of return is a very privileged rate of return," said Barwise, telling ZDNet.com.au that it was a figure "normally associated with a very poor competitive environment".

"To be able to achieve its targeted return on equity of 18 per cent Telstra would have to extract additional revenue from the network users through higher prices. Higher prices in industries will be passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices for consumer goods and services, leading to a general increase in the level of prices," concluded the report's authors, Mayela Garcia and CIE director Kerry Barwise.

Barwise and Garcia also argued in the report that based on current estimates, the cost of Telstra building the network would also contribute to high prices, with Telstra CEO Sol Trujillo having suggested that the final cost of the network could be as high as AU$15 billion. The authors added a AU$15 billion Telstra build could eventually lead to a 0.35 per cent drop in GDP due to decreases in consumption and investment occasioned by the higher commercial and consumer costs of accessing the network.

"Most people would think that what's good for Telstra is good for Australia," said Barwise, "although there are a lot of shareholders who stand to benefit from this, what we've shown is that Australia will be in a less competitive position, leading to higher prices and higher inflation...a concern which more than offsets any potential benefit to [Telstra] shareholders," he said.

"The additional 15 per cent cost consumers would face under Telstra's FTTN model is equivalent to charging a private 'Telstra tax' on broadband services. There is no point building a new network if customers can't afford the service," said CCC executive director Forman in a statement.

"No responsible government could agree to Telstra's exorbitant terms for return on investment and price protection. The cost to the economy and to the ordinary Australian is too great," he said.

Telstra denied the report presented accurate results and accused its competitors of paying the independent group to produce embellished conclusions.

"This is a completely bogus report that has been bought and paid for by a bunch of competitors who want one thing only — to stop the building of Australia's national broadband network and keep their current cosy arrangements," Telstra wholesale director, Kate McKenzie, said in a statement.

"The report has no basis in fact. It is a dishonest distortion that is designed to do nothing but delay the process," she added.

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Talkback 55 comments

    G9 are the new mesiah's !! Anonymous -- 05/06/08

    Bravo, bravo, these guys are so concerned about the poor consumer who will pay oh so much more for his life essential fixed wire telecommunications, that I think we should forget about splitting up Telstra and spilt up the ACCC and give the role to G9 or Terria or whatever their name is this week! For they are the true champions of the public consumer and protector’s of the national interest . It has nothing to do with any of their Optus’ or the others own failings I’m sure.
    Here was I all these years assuming, would’nt it be great if my competitors would only charge just a little bit more than I, how easy it would be for me to attract customers and profits. How silly was that idea! So how much more succesfull and easy would it be for me to win customers if my competitors were to charge double or triple what I would charge! Would I really complain that they charge too much!
    I guess that’s why when Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini sell cars for $500 k, Honda calls up Toyota to coordinate a protest to approach the Govt and media to have their production lines confiscated.
    Seriously, I have never heard such B.S. in my life.
    Someone please, oh please, slap that LYING PHONEY Paul O’sullivan and the others from G9. Who are only looking out for the consumer’s interest!

    Go back to under the rock you call Telstra. SimonJD -- 05/06/08 (in reply to #320103347)

    Are you seriously that loving of the commercial destroyer called Telstra. They've proven, time & time again if they have no competition they will NOT look out for the interests of Australians, they'll ramp prices up as far as they possibly can, why on earth would you think it would be any different if we let them build the FTTN? Geez, I hate all these Shareholders & Telstra gimme's that come & plague articles stating their view on what they believe Telstra will do with even more of a monopoly.

    Telstra should not be trusted with more power than what they have... They're not competative, they're not looking out for value for the Australian Consumer, They're not anything I would call a good company.

    The G9 have changed their name once. Since they're forming a Wholesale Business seperate from their Retail side, I believe it's the right move.

    You've never heard such B.S. in your life? That must be a pretty big rock you live under.

    If Australia's to have value for money broadband that is even close to the rest of the modern world, then Telstra cannot be any part of the architect. I would of prefered the government keep controlling portions of it. But then they'd just sell it off again & we'd be back where we have been for the past 5 years. At the backside of the Broadband Technology. 256/64kB connections that Telstra loves, is NOT Broadband according to majority of the world. A connection must be of at least 1Mb in speed to be classified as Broadband most of the world wide.

    *end rant*

    If you think I went to far, go search what Internet plans are available throughout the world.

    Circle of Life ;-) Anonymous -- 05/06/08 (in reply to #320103351)

    There there, Simon its ok, its natural, its the "cirlce of life"
    Optus is afraid that it wont be able to compete, Which perhaps true. But its there own fault for getting fat and lazy. Anyway after Telstra builds the FTTN and wins all the customers in the land Optus will wither and die, then the carcass will be bought by Dodo (I love the irony) and will then be evolved into a player thats not afraid. It will fight Telstra and perhaps win. Then Telstra will wither and "circle of life" will continue.

    wakey wakey Anonymous -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103351)

    perhaps you should come out from under your T4 sponsored rock and stop being so gullible. what have the G9 - terria actually done so far? changed teams by signing a labour mercenary and ditched the conservatives, changed their name, then demanded further delays or they'd pack up and go. what achievements. But they also said, we'll be cheaper than Telstra, so that's enough for you? goodonya.

    Telstra has a point! jim -- 05/06/08

    to quote their spokeswoman

    "This is a completely bogus report that has been bought and paid for by a bunch of competitors who want one thing only — to stop the building of Australia's national broadband network and keep their current cosy arrangements," Telstra wholesale director, Kate McKenzie, said in a statement.

    Telstra spin TelstraSpinMakesMeDizzy -- 05/06/08

    More empty sounds bites from Telstra in response to a serious issue. People have been asking "At what price" for 3 years now, and yet Telstra still do everything possible to keep it hidden. McKenzie could have given us some indicative pricing to counter the claims, but instead resorted to empty rhetoric in response. The old *point* look over there Telstra is renowned for. How is this report delaying an FTTN build?? How is it a distortion? It is based on the releases from Telstra themselves. Telstra need to provide some facts to back up their empty rhetoric and show us all what they are hiding. If their FTTN plan is so wonderful, their spin machine would be crowing about it to all and sundry. Yet all we have seen for 3 years is empty rhetoric and the old shift the focus away from the question trick.
    Time to come clean Telstra.

    "Dog chasing its tail" Anonymous -- 05/06/08

    Another example where OPTUS are playing their "poor little OPTUS" card to try and distort the TRUTH (they have been miking it for years). I know I wouldnt trust a politician representing the TERRIA bid which amounts to nothing more than a political stunt!! EGAN has been quoted as saying that TERRIA dont care if they dont win the bid!!! What gives???

    ROFL!!! Anonymous -- 05/06/08 (in reply to #320103355)

    Optus isn't even included in the CCC! Blind ranting only makes you look foolish.

    CCC Members:

    Hutchison Telecoms
    Macquarie Telecom
    Verizon Business
    PowerTel
    Primus Telecom
    TransACT
    iiNet
    Agile Communications

    Your right Anonymous -- 05/06/08 (in reply to #320103356)

    I stand corrected!!! Thanks

    I suppose they have to "hedge" their bets..a bit like the NBN...just in case the above list lose out to protect their cosy duopoly!! ROFL

    Sprung Lord Watchdog -- 05/06/08

    I have no doubt that Telstra is justified in denying the allegations. Just like I have no doubt that Telstra will later change their mind and charge 20% more instead and simply blame it all on inflation.

    This is a wake-up call to Senator CONroy - Don't trust Telstra if you want the nation to have affordable Internet. It won't happen with Telstra as sole (pardon the pun) network owner.

    Go Aussie, you good thing. Sydney Lawrence -- 05/06/08 (in reply to #320103365)

    Senator Conroy be very careful when dealing with the anti-Telstra tricksters. If you are sucked in by them you will see these amateurs make the greatest foul-up in the history of fibre.

    You will then see the fangs come out as they cry for more Government money to continue the cost blowout roll-out. This disaster for the Australian taxpayer will make your Government very unpopular.

    It is beyond my comprehension how any Australian Government could choose a foreign owned company for the NBN build when an Australian company with proven ability is available.

    Fibre isn't new Sydney Lord Watchdog -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103375)

    Fibre cabling isn't exactly a new technology. To say that only one company has any experience with rolling out fibre networks proves how narrow one's views really are.

    Here's why:

    Regardless of who wins the FTTN tender, the chances of the contruction and interconnections being contracted out to other companies is quite high. A number of companies will be asked to make cable, connectors, junction boxes, pits, routers, line amplifiers, etc etc etc. None of this work will get done in-house. There will then be companies to install all of this equipment and once again, little if any, of this work will be done in-house.

    The main difference here is therefore not expertise applied to network construction but the fair play involved by the tender winner with regard to their firecasts on ROI and ultimately the price they charge at wholesale and retail level.

    "It is beyond my comprehension how any Australian Government could choose a foreign owned company for the NBN build when an Australian company with proven ability is available."

    In an ideal world the network and its owner would be 100% Australian and I would like nothing better than to see that happen. The chances of it being a reality are quite slim though.

    If Telstra was more customer-friendly with their ROI calculations I would gladly support them being the successful tenderer. The thing that comes out of all of this though is that I, along with most others, have to keep an eye on what we spend our money on. Telstra isn't special. They have to earn loyalty instead of just expecting it.

    Not its not new Anonymous -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103464)

    Too right, I've been having it in my all bran for years. It keeps you regular.

    Uh oh.. James -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103365)

    Take the Telstra 3G/ADSL2 pricing. Even with competition they're still more expensive then their competitors.

    Imagine what it will be like if Telstra wins the NBN tender and there is no competition. It'll be back to the bad old days of artificially limited OnRamps and high prices!

    We've all seen what Telstra were like. We see what they're like now. Its not hard to draw a line and connect the dots - especially when the Telstra leadership keep quoting their "18% after tax ROI"

    Compare properly. SJT -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103416)

    You need to comapre apples with apples (or potatoes with potatoes). There's more to it than just price. Support, coverage etc is all part of the value equation, imho.

    You appear to be the sort of person who walks into a grocers and see's 2 kgs of potatoes for $5 then goes next door where they have 10kg for $10 and says, I'm not paying $10 for potatoes when I can get them for $5 next door!

    Support, Cost James -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103497)

    I'm paying less with my ISP then what Telstra is charging for the equivalent broadband service and I get much better customer support.

    But yes, you're right there is more to this then just price - but Telstra is being beaten on price, performance and support ; in my experience at least :-)

    I have had the opposite experience. SJT -- 07/06/08 (in reply to #320103504)

    Fair enough. FYI - Personally I have experienced the exact opposite.

    I was not happy with Telstra originally so left and ended up with Ozemail/iiNet previously. Ooh, I have also been a client of Optus, BDigital/Soul too!

    Unfortunately, Telstra's competitors support was absolutely woeful, over 1 hour waits for phone support, so after many years, I returned to Telstra to see if they had improved.

    Telstra were not only "vastly better" but ironically, I was paying the exact same amount p.m (for the first 12 mths of a 24mth contract) for faster, greater, Wi-Fi and the superior support (phone calls answered within minutes and sometimes immediately). After 6 mths the plans changed so my price actually went down now ($15pm LESS p.m than I had been paying ii).

    When the 12 mths was up, the plans were again changing, so I have since upgraded from an average plan (although still superior and cheaper than the ii plan I had been on, specs wise) to a bigger/better plan again.

    I now have ADSL2+, unlimited (capped at 25gig), Wi-Fi, 125 free landline calls and more, but still have the superior support and it costs me just over 80c per day more than I was paying iiNet for their slower, Wi-Fi-less, product and non-existent support. Telstra's superior support alone is worth the extra, imho, let alone the difference between having what may be described as an amateur plan and now a more pro plan! Plus the free landline calls, as I prefer having a landline too.

    I am happy with Telstra's overall value and refuse to reward the competitors for their cheap and nasty support simply because they may (or may not as I found out) save me a few cents.

    Horses for courses I guess? But I'm not going to chance it again!

    Cheers.

    Not me.. Simon -- 12/06/08 (in reply to #320103523)

    I was prevented from getting dsl for years by Telstra (not available) until I signed up with a BigPond promotion where I could cancel within 3 months. Connected several weeks later, I then cancelled and moved to another ISP.
    I now pay $29 per month for 20Gb/rate limited and the service is excellent. Had no billing issues, service resotation within hours and calls returned promptly.
    Beside the dirty business of preventing other ISPs to install dsl services to me by lying, I am paying less than half of the Telstra plan for unlimited download.
    This is just one example why people do not trust Telstra and why there is a customer backlash.

    I find it disturbing that Telstra is following the US West model of customer disenfranchisement, monopolistic practices and litigation, litigation, litigation!

    Optus bashers? Yusseuf -- 05/06/08

    Hey wake up with the optus bashing and keep ontopic, I don t actually see Optus mentioned in this article yet its the first thing anon bashes is optus

    Competitive Carriers Coalition (CCC) — whose members include Macquarie Telecom, iiNet and TransACT

    Keep on track lameo
    \ /
    * | *
    ___

    What next? Anonymous -- 05/06/08

    So, if Telstra gets the NBN contract, broadband prices will go up, it will be bad for engineers (see related story from Optus), and competition - if you can call the 'badge engineering' going on in the telecommunications sector "competition", - will come to an end.

    What's next on the scare campaign? The end of life as we know it? The earth will open up and swallow Australia whole? It will fade the carpets and confuse the cows? I know that was the scare campaign for daylight saving, but it hasn't been used for a while, and is just as applicable as the other garbage being trotted out.

    What next? James -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103381)

    I don't doubt for one minute that if Telstra wins the NBN tender they'll lock out their competitors so quickly, the ink won't even be dry on their winning tender notification.

    But I also don't doubt that any single carrier given that kind of blank cheque wouldn't do the same thing - public listed companies owe their allegiance to shareholders first and foremost and their annual profit/loss reports secondly, so of course they're going to want a monopoly.

    Which is why Conroy needs to force who-ever wins to build the network then get out of the way or at the very least have very strong rules on competition. I don't want my tax dollars going to helping a player in the market squeeze out everyone else.

    What next? Anonymous -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103419)

    Telstra has stated that access will be open. The only people saying it won't be are its competitors. Thanks - I should add that one to the list of scare campaign tricks.

    There is no blank cheque. The government contribution is fixed. It is unlikely to be like the bad old days where the former Governement's $600M deal magically turned into $958M after it was awarded to the now defunct Opel.

    Publically listed companies do owe their allegiance to shareholders. All companies vying for the NBN tender are either publically listed companies or $5 shelf companies fronting for publically listed companies (okay, there is a state goverment involved, but I'm not sure how serious their bid is).

    To my knowledge, only G9/TERRiA is requesting a monopoly. Telstra has made no such claim. I am not sure about the other bidders.

    I would agree that getting the winner to build the network and get out of the way would be a good idea if that was all they were doing. The truth is that whoever wins is going to have a significant amount of their shareholders' money invested in a very expensive and risky network. The winner simply cannot afford to build it and get out of the way. Also, if the builder were to 'get out of the way', who would maintain it?

    If TERRiA wins, your tax dollars will be going to a body that has publically stated it wants a monopoly. Okay, they have also publically stated they really don't want the job too, so who knows what they are on about.

    What next?? James Bell -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103439)

    "Telstra has stated that access will be open. The only people saying it won't be are its competitors. Thanks - I should add that one to the list of scare campaign tricks."

    Just because a network is going to be open access, it does not necessarily place any guarantees on the costs competitors will have to pay in order to access it or any level of service assurance. The PSTN we have today is also open access, but as history has proven Telstra will do everything within its power to push out competition. Whether it's uncompetitive wholesale pricing, cumbersome and flawed service processes, or simply abusing our legal system by taking the ACCC to court over virtually every single determination that's been made over the past decade Telstra has shown it cannot be trusted.

    "Publically listed companies do owe their allegiance to shareholders. All companies vying for the NBN tender are either publically listed companies or $5 shelf companies fronting for publically listed companies (okay, there is a state goverment involved, but I'm not sure how serious their bid is). "

    Of course they do. Nobody is saying Terria or any other bidders are going in there out of the goodness of their hearts; however their objectives and what they aim to achieve through their proposals are what we as consumers should be focusing on. Terria, being a consortium of companies want the network to be operated by an independent entity where all players will have access on equal terms (even those without a direct financial interest in the infrastructure). The wholesaler will not be able to sell any of its services retail which will remove any commercial interest in having uncompetitive wholesale arrangements. Although Telstra have never made public their pricing, it is widely accepted that based on the rate of return they have publically declared that their pricing would be significantly more than what other bidders will be proposing.

    "If TERRiA wins, your tax dollars will be going to a body that has publically stated it wants a monopoly. "

    They have requested that once the network is completed that no competing networks can be created. This isn't to ensure anyone has a monopoly, but to a avoid a repeat of the HFC debacle in the 90's on a much larger scale by avoiding a gross waste of unnecessary infrastructure and capital spending. I believe Terria have also never ruled out other parties such as Telstra joining them in the network's delivery.

    "Okay, they have also publically stated they really don't want the job too, so who knows what they are on about."

    Terria have never publically stated anything of the sort so don't misconstrue the truth. What they have advised is that even if they don't win they will still be satisfied with the outcome if the successful bidder will provide the competitive environment which they seek to do business.

    To reiterate my point yes all of these companies are businesses trying to make money; however it's the differences in what they are proposing which has the power to significantly impact us as users.

    Blah, blah, blah SJT -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103455)

    As usual we can simply ignore 99% of James' (allegedly) paid for rhetoric and as for the other 1%, take his spin off and then it has a semblance of truth.

    Here's the 1% - "Terria have never publically stated anything of the sort (re: Anon's statement about TERRiA really not wanting the job) so don't misconstrue the truth".

    Typically, it is you who is misconstruing, again! Here's exactly what TERRiA said. Age 22/5: - Former NSW Treasurer Michael Egan, recruited as the figurehead for the coalition of Telstra's rivals, said the group - renamed Terria yesterday - would be "happy as Larry" if a bidder other than Telstra or Terria won the $4.7 billion tender to build the national FTTN network..." NONE OF THE COMPANIES ASSOCIATED WITH TERRIA ARE ALL THAT FUSSED ABOUT OWNING AND OPERATING A MONOPOLY NETWORK, Mr Egan said. "Their core business is in competitive markets - not running regulated monopolies...

    Sugar coat it, bend the meaning, get your interpretation directly from T4 or whatever, those who want to, can see what it means.

    Once again for the dummies (Happy as Larry) Egan - "None of the companies associated with Terria are all that fussed about owning and operating a monopoly network".

    Vs.

    Anon "they have also publically stated they really don't want the job".

    Split hairs be pedantic and argue all you like, but "don't really want" or "not all that fussed about owning" - helloooo...

    Lol - "their core business is in competitive markets" In other words, they simply want to continue the leech from Telstra!

    Pot calling the kettle black? James Bell -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103470)

    "As usual we can simply ignore 99% of James' (allegedly) paid for rhetoric and as for the other 1%, take his spin off and then it has a semblance of truth"

    I'd say the prospect of you being paid by Telstra is a hell of a lot more likely than me being paid by any of these companies. You on one hand venture from forum to forum fighting tooth and nail on behalf of Telstra.. for what purpose exactly? Me on the other hand simply cares about being able to access fast and affordable broadband. I don't lobby on behalf of any particular company and honestly do not care who provides it. Even if Telstra were to win this tender with suitable conditions in place to protect us from to being ripped off I'd still be satisfied. The problem is however that if Telstra were to win given their track record I'd find the prospect of us paying higher prices far more likely, hence my negative outlook towards Telstra winning.

    "Sugar coat it, bend the meaning, get your interpretation directly from T4 or whatever, those who want to, can see what it means. "

    We've been down this path of your selective quotations in previous posts SJT. People who like to throw the "happy as Larry" comment around like youself have been constantly putting it out of context. As previously stated from the exact article you've quoted from Eagan also went on to add "The reason they're putting together a bid is that they've got no guarantee that if they don't (that) someone else will come up with a satisfactory structure.", so what exactly was "sugar coated" when I correctly stated that Terria will still be satisfied if another bidder were to succeed, but with the necessary competitive framework in place?

    "Lol - "their core business is in competitive markets" In other words, they simply want to continue the leech from Telstra!"

    See this is where you and not I bend and manipulate the truth. If you're going to respond to anything from my post at least do the courtesy of responding to the following: Provide a detailed explanation as to how exactly competitors supposedly "leech from Telstra" and how it personally impacts you? (i.e. Why do you even care?). If you can at least do this then you'll have really achieved something, because not even Telstra lack the ability to succinctly articulate this.

    Correction James Bell -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103471)

    ...because not even Telstra HAVE the ability to succinctly articulate this.

    Simple! SJT -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103471)

    Simple James!

    Telstra's half yearly results presentation pack, 21/2/2008. Keep this in mind. This is not "Telstra spin" but figures/quotes from Telstra's half yearly report! Comprehende`?

    Graphs p3 and pg4 indicate -4.6% (minus 4.6%) wholesale! Pg 6 #11 says - "ULL and LLS priced below cost"!

    = LEECH.

    But please feel free to ignore this, then ask the same question tomorrow. Also, feel free to add your typical escape clause "oh that's just out of context" - lol!

    As for how it impacts me? Well unlike a paid shill (as you have been accused of, with pretty damming evidence, may I add) I simply get great personal satisfaction, out of disproving professional BS artists!

    Oh look I'm doing it again - lol!

    Yes and pigs can fly James Bell -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103479)

    SJT, use some common sense for change instead of trying to prove pigs can fly.

    A Telstra document which states "ULL and LLS priced below cost", with no viable explanation or details behind how exactly it's below cost is not fact. While neither you or I may be privy to the intricate details of Telstra's true costs there are a few simple things we can do to come to the reasonable conclusion that Telstra is without doubt not being forced to provide ULL at below cost.

    A bit of history for you SJT. Less than 5 years ago Telstra (without any intervention or involvement from the ACCC) agreed to the existing tiered pricing structure for ULL and was charging competitors on average of less than $7 per ULLS. Then suddenly Telstra decided they didn't like competitors receiving improved margins through their DSLAM investments and tried to increase this rate to $30 per ULLS. It doesn't take Einstein to understand there's no way Telstra's costs have increased by over 300%.

    Something else we can compare this "below cost" argument to is the rate Telstra currently charge retail for access to their lines which can be accessed for as low as $19.95. When we consider the fact that this retail rate of $19.95 is not only for the low-tech piece of copper from a customer's premises to the exchange (which is all ULL is), but also Telstra's equipment in the exchange connecting to their network, the billing, payment processing, general account maintenance, call centres etc. to support their customers... I'm sure you get my drift, yet all this apparently costs Telstra $10.05 less than a ULLS?

    Nevertheless the ACCC has still set an average ULLS price of $14 (only $5.95 below Telstra's retail price) and Telstra still cry poor, claiming it's below cost.

    This example is just one of the many reasons that Telstra can not be trusted and while it remains a monopoly requires regulation to keep it as honest as possible.

    The king of show me the proof and then ignoring it - lol! SJT -- 07/06/08 (in reply to #320103501)

    James,

    As usual you "demand proof" and when it is categorically supplied (I even gave you the date and page numbers - lol) you still simply ignore.

    No James, as I said, keep in mind this was an official statement, so don't pull the no viable details, etc. You don't spin to the ASX!

    You asked, I supplied, but I'm not going to wipe your bum for you. So rather than simply attempting to "unsuccessfully discredit my facts", why don't you instead use your obvious googling skills and find the doc I am referring to - again the date and page numbers are there for you! It's not hard for one who "really wants to know"!

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Anyway, here's what Grahame Lynch said late last year - "Every three months the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission issues a so'called 'accounting separation' report on Telstra. Every quarter we learn that Telstra actually discriminates in favour of its wholesale customers over its retail customers on measures such as connection times and fault repairs.

    And we learn that Telstra probably supplies line rentals, local calls and ADSL services at a loss and timed long distance and fixed-to-mobile calls at a profit (and of course, that business users cross-subsidise retail users).

    Access seekers, who can cherry pick markets, avoid the real costs of universal and national service provision obligations and buy inputs such as line sharing service at their marginal cost, can thus likely make a business case out of offering services based on Telstra unbundled and wholesale inputs".
    ----------------------------------------------------------

    So there's another expert rather than Kevin Morgan you can now libel - lol!

    Unfortunately, you don't really want the truth do you, as it doesn't fit within the boundaries of your (alleged) "cash for anti-Telstra comments"! Disgraceful!

    And here's what the ACCC and the Australian Competition's Tribunal said James Bell -- 07/06/08 (in reply to #320103524)

    "Telstra had proposed a $30 per service per month ULLS rental charge in all bands. Both the ACCC (August 2006) and the Australian Competition Tribunal (May 2007) were not satisfied that such a price was reasonable. ACCC chairman, Graeme Samuel, said the prices set by the ACCC will ensure that consumers receive higher quality services at more reasonable prices from a greater range of service providers" and surprise, surprise this is exactly what is happening as we speak! Customers now have more choice than ever and prices are continuing to come down.

    SJT, you still fail to see common sense even when it's staring you in the face. FACT 1 - Telstra charge a retail rate of $19.95 to its own customers
    FACT 2 - Telstra proposed and began to charge a wholesale ULLS rate of $30 until the ACCC and ACT intervened

    You don't need quotes from Kevin Morgan or Graham Lynch to see what Telstra had proposed was pure profiteering and another of their anti-competitive measures to wipe out competition. Even if by the off-chance Telstra were being forced to provide services at below cost (which they're clearly not) why do you even care because you and I are the ones who have benefited as consumers? Hell if the ACCC mandated ISP's should be paying us to use their services I'm not going to complain!

    lol You keep claiming I'm on the payroll of one these companies as another one of your pathetic diversion tactics, yet you are the one who's always going to great lengths to defend a single, monopolistic and very wealthy corporation... supposedly out of the goodness of your heart.

    Yeah whatever. SJT -- 07/06/08 (in reply to #320103530)

    Yeah whatever James. Waffle on with BS all you like.

    You demand proof and proof is supplied. But it's not the proof you want, because the proof proves you wrong! So you simply disregard it.

    As such and because you are forever on the receiving end, you now no longer want proof (quotes from the telecoms experts like Mr. Morgan and Lynch aren't needed, you say). Again because the experts simply prove you wrong! Or perhaps it's because you are so conceited and full of yourself that you actually believe you know better than the experts? Pfft...

    So really what's the point? You aren't interested unless the so called proof fits within your warped anti-Telstra guidelines.

    Now let's get this straight. It was not I who claimed you are on the payroll of a TERRiA company, someone else did this and provided very damming evidence to prove their claims (not that having the proof/facts has ever stopped you arguing otherwise before).

    My friend you indeed a unique individual, I'll give you that!

    Here we go again... James Bell -- 07/06/08 (in reply to #320103539)

    "You demand proof and proof is supplied. But it's not the proof you want, because the proof proves you wrong! So you simply disregard it."

    Considering both the ACCC and Australian Competition Tribunal will have undoubtedly had access to more information in this instance than Graham Lynch I hold their opinion on this matter with higher regard. Until Telstra or even yourself can comprehensively explain how it would be possible for a resold ULLS service to cost Telstra $10.05 more than its own retail service, or how their costs have gone up at a rate over 100 times higher than the CPI then the argument that other ISP's are "leeching" off Telstra at "below cost" is bullsh*t.

    I've said it once and I'll say it again. Even if in some alternate universe Telstra was forced to provide wholesale access at below cost why does it even concern you? If you genuinely have no financial interest in Telstra and are merely a "messenger" as you've said so before then why do you bother even commenting on it?? It would have no negative impact on you, Telstra customer or not.

    "Now let's get this straight. It was not I who claimed you are on the payroll of a TERRiA company, someone else did this.."

    Someone by the name of "anonymous" posted two "James Bell" e-mail addresses they found because they had nothing better to do; one belonged to a Telstra employee and another from a member of the T4. Since this occured you have continuously brought it up by remarking on how I must be that member from T4. Whilst I agree it is ironic it's also getting old. I'm confident there are many thousands of James Bell's out there and neither of the e-mail addresses in this case belong to me. Even if they were mine you do not see me posting around telling everyone how great iPrimus or any other members of T4 are unlike you who appears to post purely on behalf of one company; Tel$tra.

    Bye for now! SJT -- 07/06/08 (in reply to #320103545)

    This will be my last post to you on this topic.

    You believe the ACCC - good! So believe them when they start to roll back regulatuions in exchanges with multiple competitors. Believe them when they have agreed the leeching stops with the new ADSL2+. exchanges. And please do not ever again have the hide to "demand proof", since you totally reject the facts and figures presented by telecoms experts the likes of Mr. Morgan and Mr. Lynch (although you'd be highlighting them if they agreed with you - go figure).

    I also believe Uncy Graham's ACCC tenure is soon up? Strangely, he is now out of hibernation and has finally discovered that we not only have Telstra, but also supermarkets, petrol stations/oil companies etc! What a revelation - came just in the nick of time.

    In relation to my concerns, I have explained my entire situation, elsewhere, directly to you previously, so if you can't remember or typically ignored my details - tough luck. However as a hint, read my above post "I have had the opposite experience" and you will see why I dislike the lies you and your cronies peddle.

    So since it's not obvious (as I've only spelt it out to you maybe 50 times) I believe in "true competition", not regulated competition. We have had regulations in place for over 10 years and it is recognised by many (no not you) that they need to be phased out. With true competition, we (yes you and me) as consumers will then be better off, imho!

    You see, the basis for most people's disliking of Telstra and wishes for regulations, comes from the false notion that the PSTN was gifted to Telstra. Well, Telstra were vested PSTN, but they were also vested the $b's in debt, thereof. Then Telstra was privatised/sold as well, gaining the Australian people some $50b. So $b's gained through the repayment of debt, plus 10's of $b's for the sale, plus $b's more in dividend payments, as well. As such we the taxpayers have not only been paid, but paid and paid again for Telstra.

    Finally, it seems most odd, that you take offence to being singled out for treatment in relation to "those allegations", when a retiree by the name of Mr. Sydney Lawrence seems fair game for you? Apparently it's ok not only for you, but the rest of the faithful, to personally and contrary to all assurances otherwise, attack Mr. Sydney Lawrence? But you hypocritically cry foul when it happens to you - lol!

    Typically, you believe there should be one set of rules for you "the special one" and another set for Mr. Lawrence! Time to snap out of it, your highness, yes it is getting old.

    Proof? Simon -- 12/06/08 (in reply to #320103539)

    Using the annual report to ASX is not proof of anything. A claim by any company that a product line is being sold under-cost has no bearing on the administration of the company code and ASX would ignore such statements.
    Proof would be the complete set of itemised financial records detailing the expense of maintaining the ULL.

    Monopoly James -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103439)

    Telstra wanted an exemption from regulation from Coonan when they lost the previous tender. Whats to say they won't push for the same thing now.

    And where has the G9/.../... tenderers requested a monopoly? They all seem to be in agreement that they want ACCC regulation and they would welcome proper structural separation. Got a link for their desire for a monopoly? Or is this just more recycled Telstra FUD?

    Uh oh, two James' James -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103505)

    .. this is going to get confusing :-)

    The non-Telstra tenderers have suggested they don't want to work in a "regulated monopoly" - it doesn't mean they don't want to work in a regulated market. Hell, they've even offered an olive branch to Telstra numerous times to work together, but Telstra want to grab their 18% after-tax return on the NBN.

    Suggestion that the non-Telstra tenderers are not interested in regulation or the NBN is pure spin and FUD.

    No, it's not confusing. SJT -- 07/06/08 (in reply to #320103506)

    No it's not confusing at all James 2, because you and James 1 are obviously just one eyed clones of each other.

    As such, may one be so brash as to suggest we simply refer to you as "the cyclops twins"? - lol!

    lol James -- 07/06/08 (in reply to #320103540)

    No, where two different people.

    Nice "attack the person not the argument" post btw :-)

    Fire with fire SJT -- 07/06/08 (in reply to #320103556)

    No problem. I'm sure Mr. Lawrence is here somewhere, if you and James want to take a typical cheap shot too!

    My friend, time to toughen up. When you get told "die Hel$tra scum" as I have, then come and complain about attacking the person!

    Conroy FUD maybe - lol! SJT -- 07/06/08 (in reply to #320103505)

    Lol James.

    Q1. Do all James' demand links? Or just J1 and J2.

    Anyway...perhaps it was Conroy FUD, as Sen. Conroy even said it : -

    ZDNet 16/4. According to Conroy, it is the G9 consortium -- a group of nine ISPs including Optus, Internode and Primus -- and not the government promoting a monopoly, with G9's last submission on building the fibre network "demanding to be a monopoly" and asking the government to make sure "Telstra couldn't build a rival network".

    Q2. Do all James' after demanding links, then refute, ignore and make excuses about those links? (Psst - don't forget out of context - that's a winner for J1)

    My apologies to the many "fair dinkum" good James'. As such the jury is still out on this James! I guess we'll soon see though - lol!

    ... James -- 08/06/08 (in reply to #320103560)

    Q1.

    http://www.itwire.com/content/view/3554/127/

    Read Coonans speech from the ATUG as well.
    Telstra demanding for regulatory exemptions in exchange for them building the NBN.

    What does that prove? That both Optus and Telstra are trying to make sure they're the only ones who get to the build the network. At least Optus is arguing for structural separation, whereas Telstra is totally against it.

    I say let them both build their networks - it'll be better for Australia if there are two competing networks.

    "Q2. Do all James' after demanding links, then refute, ignore and make excuses about those links? (Psst - don't forget out of context - that's a winner for J1) "

    Again, attack the argument, not the player. If you can't attack the argument its probably better you say nothing. Otherwise people won't want to play with you :-)

    All I did was prove you FUD ~ FUD - lol! SJT -- 08/06/08 (in reply to #320103584)

    Like your cyclops twin (are you sure you are 2 different people). You asked where it was said that G9 wanted a monoploy and I simply showed you - period. It's not that hard to comprehende` is it?

    As for attacking the argument - that's what I just did and proved you FUD as FUD. So you now want to say, yes but, oh but - lol!

    Seems the jury is now back and guess what????

    Respond to the facts.. if you can James -- 08/06/08 (in reply to #320103585)

    "Seems the jury is now back and guess what????"

    And you attacked the player, not argument.

    Good work.

    Respond to the facts... lol you should be in show biz SJT -- 08/06/08 (in reply to #320103596)

    LOL.

    I responded to your request for, show me where the wonderful, perfect, butter wouldn't melt in their mouth G9/TERRiA, would possibly demand a monopoly - and I did EXACTLY as you asked, Jimmy boy - lol!

    So in response, in another ZD blog, you attacked a retiree named Sydney, but cry foul here - hypocrite. You should be ashamed of yourself!

    "I love Helen Coonan" fred -- 08/06/08 (in reply to #320103584)

    Mate for someone who Hates Telstra so much and is smitten with DROPTUS...you do yourself no favours by continually quoting your spiritual leader in Helen Coonan.

    We all no how hOPELess she was. Give it up mate...the cosy days you enjoyed under Howard/Coonan are over...get over it!!!

    The Gravy train ride you have had playing the "poor little optus" card is over!!!

    "Monopoly Myth" Anonymous -- 07/06/08 (in reply to #320103505)

    The talk of monopolies is not genuine as it is a fact that if no competitor can challenge their opponent with investment and superior products and service, them that challenger is being rejected by the consumer because his product is inferior.

    Forget the ACCC, forget the whinge of G9 the Australian public will decide. If as has been claimed Telstra prices are to high another investor who feels they can supply a cheaper product will soon appear.

    Nothing New Here Anonymous -- 06/06/08

    Everyone know Telstra charges more fore their internet services then every other company, why would FTTN be any different.

    Telstra can reject the reports validity all they want, but the fact remains, Bigpond cost more per MB then any other ISP.

    Quality is up to you. Sydney Lawrence -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103440)

    And a Roller costs more than a Camry. You get what you pay for.

    Exactly Lord Watchdog -- 06/06/08 (in reply to #320103454)

    Pay more and get sluggish inefficient performance, over-priced repairs with a limited range of suppliers and a smartarse at the wheel looking down his nose at everyone else.

    There is no reason why Bigpond should be one cent more expensive than any other ISP, especially since in many cases the subscriber would be connected to the same equipment, regardless of the ISP they chose.

    I've said it before and I will reiterate - If Bigpond was fair with service and pricing then no other ISP would exist because people would like what they were getting.

    Telstra refers to its products as "premium" to justify a tyrannical pricing structure but the reality is that it is the same s### with a different smell.

    Re: Quality is up to you Grump -- 10/06/08 (in reply to #320103454)

    In this instance your "Roller" is just a re-badged "Camry" & both are made in Taiwan.
    The only difference is the price.
    But some still believe the higher the price tag, the better the product, ROTFL.

    Aussie Number One! Sydney Lawrence -- 10/06/08 (in reply to #320103685)

    Grump why do you insult the intelligence of the Australian people? They are not fools, and have chosen Telstra (check the take-up stats) in preference to the people you foolishly try to defend.

    Re: Aussie Number One! Grump -- 11/06/08 (in reply to #320103692)

    OK Sydney, I believe you....the world is indeed flat & if I travel too far I''ll fall over the edge.

    Terria #1 Anonymous -- 11/06/08 (in reply to #320103852)

    You aren't the boss of Terria are you? That's just the sort of modern day philosophy they'd love!

    Re: Lord Watchdog -- 26/06/08 (in reply to #320103692)

    Often choosing Telstra is the only choice and therefore there is no real choice but what has been fed to you.

    Telstra also advertise A LOT more than any other ISP put together and whilst some dill driving a beat-up Volkswagen ponding on why the Great Wall of China was built doesn't really add up to creative advertising, when Telstra is the only choice it is certainly still effective.

    I am about to ditch People Telecom for one of my broadband connections as the two year agreement is about to run out and for whatever reason they have no ambition of offering ADSL2 and I am certainly not going to wait for them to make their mind up.

    I have been giving careful consideration about who the new ISP will be. What I need, given that I host a few websites and my own mail server, is an ISP who is connected to different gear at the exchange than that of the ISP who hosts my other connection. I could choose Bigpond but paying $89.00 for 12GB just doesn't add up, especially when I'd have to pay an extra $11 per month for a static IP address.

    Netspace offers 10GB for $59.95 and that comes with a free static IP address. Allowing for the difference in the downloads I am still saving about $15.00 by going with Netspace. This is before allowing for the extra that Bigpond charge for the static IP.

    I could go further. Because I host my own mail server I don't have to have an e-mail address supplied by my ISP though if I did need this I would ahve to account for Bigpond only offering one included mailbox and upto 14 more that you would have to rent. Netspace offer 10 included and from there an unlimited number that would need to be paid for.

    As I run servers I would also have to allow for Bigpond being an ISP that charges for uploads. Netspace and many other ISPs don't.

    My question is therefore: Why is it foolish to defend people who choose a provider other than Bigpond when that choice represents far better value for money in every way?

    Debate Davo -- 16/06/08 (in reply to #320103816)

    Perhaps the most intelligent comment on this site..

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