Greedy ISPs kept from filtering trial

Communications Minister Stephen Conroy said that the reason some Internet Service Providers (ISPs) hadn't been chosen in the first round of ISP filtering was that they had greedily tried to get the department to pay for upgrades to their own equipment.

Steven Joyce

Stephen Conroy at the ATUG Awards on Thursday night
(Credit: Suzanne Tindal/ZDNet.com.au)

"Some of them, cheaply, took the opportunity to try and get the Commonwealth to fund an upgrade in their own equipment," he said, speaking at the Australian Telecommunications Users Group (ATUG) conference. "Some of them came to us and said look, we can do this no problem, zero dollar costs. So obviously we were able to start with them."

The million dollar costs which some parties had brought to the table were veiled attempts to try and get the government to upgrade their boxes, Conroy said

"There were a few try-ons in the process, but we had to work our way through it," he said.

That was the reason the first six ISPs were chosen, Conroy said. "It was actually a function of the applications which came in. No great conspiracy theory. We're still actively engaged in conversation with a number of applicants," he assured Blue Coat's country manager Wayne Neich who had brought up the subject.

Neich had said that his company had reached no understanding or insight as to why the six companies had been chosen, a concern after his company had invested a significant amount in the ISP filtering process.

Conroy also stuck the boot into those who were proclaiming the filter as the Australian equivalent to the Great Wall of China, saying that he only wanted to remove "refuse classification (RC) material" — material that includes child sexual abuse imagery; bestiality; sexual violence; detailed instructions in crime, violence or drug use and/or material that advocates the doing of a terrorist act.

Senator for South Australia Simon Birmingham, who was standing in for Shadow Communications Minister Nick Minchin, said that it gave Conroy credit that he sought to clarify the areas of content he aimed to restrict, but any support from the shadow cabinet would be based on if the ACMA list really was as narrow as the RC classification. If it were, it wasn't what Labor had been promising in its pre-election promises, he continued.

"If that is the outcome, it's a far, far cry from what Australian consumers were led to believe at the last election," Birmingham said, adding that from the campaign, families had been given the idea they could hand the mouse to the kids and they would be safe.

On the National Broadband Network, Conroy assured the audience that it would go ahead, despite difficult economic conditions, with one of the funniest comments of the day. "I can assure you it is anything but a dead parrot. It is more than breathing at the bottom of the cage. It is not nailed to the perch," he said.

In a doorstop after his speech, he also damned any hopes Telstra had of getting back into the process. "We would be rightfully open to compensation claims, legal challenges if we were to do that," he said.

The timing of Conroy's announcement of the winning bidder or bidders would depend on Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's timetable, Conroy said, since the Prime Minister wanted to be part of the announcement.

"He has an overseas trip coming up soon and so we are seeing whether we can get it ready in time before he goes or shortly after he comes back," Conroy said.

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Talkback 67 comments

    Greedy - really? tony -- 16/03/09

    Maybe they didn't want their customers to suffer performance degradation as a result of the filter and didn't see why they should pay for hardware upgrades necessary to cope with the extra load?

    Just a guess - but it sounds quite reasonable to me....

    Conroy continues to show contempt..... Anonymous -- 16/03/09

    Conroy continues to show the utmost contempt to the australian public and australian ISP's. Why should ISP's have to finance the most ridiculous filter and technology when it is provem it will not work.

    If you were an ISP would you pay money for a government implementation that DOES NOT WORK (any 10 year old could navigate around it in 10 minutes).

    The ISP's chosen by Conroy do not even make up 5% of the online market. this is not a test, it is a sham....and the Australian public should not allow Conroy to continue in this CRAZY plan to cripple the Broadband industry in Australia.

    Kevin 747 Darth Guybrush -- 16/03/09

    Why am I not surprised? He seems to spend more time overseas than here of late.

    Clueless Conroy Anonymous -- 16/03/09

    I find it interesting that Conroy who started an open blog about this process and policy has given up on the blog. Could it be due to the overwhelming negative opinions of the general public? This guy is a joker. He has no credibility left within the IT community or the large ISP's within Australia. Its time for Australia to wake up and shut this down for good.

    "refuse classification (RC) material" Gamer -- 16/03/09

    Like R18+ games? You can't buy them in Australia, so you've got to buy them in America and ship them over, but if Conroy blocks them (because they're "refused classification") we won't even be able to do that!

    And any discussion of games that are R18+ will also become blocks, for the same reason.

    "Not the Great Firewall of China," indeed.

    A different problem Glenn -- 16/03/09 (in reply to #320125784)

    The decision to allow an R18+ classification requires a unanimous vote of all attorneys general. I believe the south australian one is being a stick-in-the-mud and ruining it for the rest of us screaming "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!11!one!one". By your logic this MAY still happen because of the refused classification but the logistics of that would be rediculous. This one isn't really Conroy's fault, though I still disagree with the filter.

    ACMA Blacklist could still block Neil McAliece -- 16/03/09 (in reply to #320125809)

    Conroy has said that the mechanism for the mandatory censorship is the ACMA blacklist.

    Even if there was a R18+ classification for games it could still be deemed "internet prohibited" under our nutty legislation. Even MA15+ can be ACMA blacklisted if the content is provided on a commercial basis.

    Though... in the article above attributes Conroy as only going after RC material. That rules out using the ACMA list as a blacklist mechanism. You can't even separate out RC in the ACMA list. Or is Conroy going to start talking about how it really is? ACMA list in part is potentially refused classification.... because it's never actually been before the classification board.

    Speaking of which Glenn... Patrick McCormack -- 16/03/09 (in reply to #320125809)

    When is South Australia's next election coming. It's about time said attorney general is booted out of his job.

    @A different problem Terry -- 17/03/09 (in reply to #320125809)

    "I believe the south australian one is being a stick-in-the-mud and ruining it for the rest of us screaming "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!"

    That would be Michael Atkinson.

    "When is South Australia's next election coming. It's about time said attorney general is booted out of his job."

    I'm not entirely sure of how Attorney Generals are selected but from what I understand Atkinson is likely to be in that position until he retires, or to put it another way it's likely we won't see a R18+/AdultsOnly rating for games for quite some time.

    Note Atkinson is also a strong supporter of the internet filter, and with his denial for R18+ games rating also uses the "think of the children" argument.

    Unqualified, unsuitable Anonymous -- 16/03/09

    Why is it that we are always afflicted with communications ministers who are just plain wrong for the job? Conroy, Coonan, Alston, all reasonably capable people in their own sphere of expertise but comletely unqualified and unsuitable for running Asutralia's IT future.
    Why this stupid idea continues to have any life is beyond me.

    Conroy scuttles own censorship plan Neil McAliece -- 16/03/09

    By declaring that they are only going to block RC material, he has ruled out the use of the ACMA blacklist (goes down to MA15+)

    It also rules out using Potentially Refused Classification as determined by ACMA. I take the Senator's comment to mean that all content complaints will now be referred to the classification board for actual classification (meaning that the content that is subject of the ruling will now be known)

    Thanks Senator Conroy. You just made the plan much less repugnant than previously :)

    Who's going to pay for upgrades Anonymous -- 16/03/09

    If this proposed technology can't run on existing systems then who is going to pay for an infrastructure upgrades so that it can? If its forced onto ISPs then they're just going to pass the cost back onto the customers that don't want it in the first case. If the government is going to mandate this then the government should be paying for the upgrades. If its too expensive then just don't do it.

    reply to government paying x -- 16/03/09 (in reply to #320125788)

    The government has no right to do it who do you think the government gets its money from the people. So in effect we would be paying for a filter none of us would want.

    Conroy is right Jason -- 16/03/09

    Conroy is 100% correct, he is not going to build the Great Wall of China. He's going to build the Great White Elephant of Australia. At least the Great Wall of China "kept the rabbits out". In reality, Conroy's Censorwall will keep absolutely nothing out, excpet perhaps the censorware vendors lining up to take a peice of the taxpayer pie.

    This thing, if implemented, will be a costly, abject failure - although no-one will ever admit it while Conroy is in charge. What more proof do we need that this clown is at the wrong circus? Kevin Rudd, please give us an IT minister who knows something about IT.

    How about me? RL -- 16/03/09 (in reply to #320125789)

    I've graduated from Charles Sturt University last year, with a Bachelor of IT. Personally, I think I'm more qualified than Conroy :)

    Sorry RL Anonymous -- 16/03/09 (in reply to #320125797)

    Sorry RL, over qualified.

    You obviously are reasonably intelligent and theres's simply no room on either side of politics for any intelligence, I'm afraid.

    Internet Filter Jason Cartwright -- 16/03/09

    If the internet filter could be implemented without cost, why did the government set aside millions of dollars for it's implementation.

    Was that just to debate the issue ?

    I think not. I agree with Tony (first commenter), if an ISP wants to (or is forced to) implement a filter and minimize the performance implications, then it's reasonable to expect additional hardware costs would be associated in doing so. Also filters would need multiple redundancy points all around the country.

    laod of bs Anonymous -- 16/03/09

    What a load of crap.

    The amount of money Conroy offered to ISP's to cover their costs of participating in the trial is a pittance compared to the actual costs involved. Not to mention the loss they may occur from customer churn as many people undoubtedly will churn away from ISP's participating in the trial in protest.

    Isp Filtering Geoff King -- 16/03/09

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Conroy,admit you've screwed up ,will continue to do so, and quit while you're ahead. Noone is going to filter what I choose to see.

    These replies are from ignorant ** Anonymous -- 16/03/09

    Just to say that all the comments posted here are from newb ** who sound like teenagers trying to be l33t. Obviously have ZERO understanding of telecommunications engineering and want to voice their stupid retarded opinions becaues they are super cool anarchists, get on your skateboard kiddies and put on your pennywise CD, you are so cool you fuckwits.

    Would you kindly? Glenn -- 16/03/09 (in reply to #320125804)

    How about telling them WHY they're wrong instead of spouting "You're wrong, I'm right, bunch-a-N00B$!!!oneoneeleven"

    Anonymous Teenager sounding idiot Anonymous -- 16/03/09 (in reply to #320125804)

    who sound like teenagers trying to be l33t...

    your talking about yourself right? Every other comment had some valid point.

    proof? Anonymous -- 16/03/09 (in reply to #320125804)

    Please explain why they are ignorant or was this just a point of abuse of someone who seems to just believe what the government tells them

    And you are? Neil McAliece -- 16/03/09 (in reply to #320125804)

    Any chance of letting us know your name and qualifications? Any actual information you want to contribute.

    Stephen, is that you? Clive? Jim?

    Holly Anonymous -- 16/03/09 (in reply to #320125804)

    You know, thats interesting you should say that Mr. Anonymous, I'd more than willing to bet you wouldn't mouth off like that. YOU clearly have zero understanding in any field, I have a Cert II in Electrotechnology and a Cert III in IT networking, what have you got? So before you act like a piece of **** again, everyone here has added something except you, what do you think that says about you ****.

    reply to "These replies are from ignorant" Anonymous -- 17/03/09 (in reply to #320125804)

    actually.....

    i am Senior IT Developer for the Australian Government and have a complete understanding of the technology and the implementation plan.

    the filter (censorship) is a sham.......it won't work....i could write a tutorial in 10 minutes that will make the entire project useless....

    the only one who sounds like a noob is you, as you do not specify any legitimate reasons as to why the filter is a good idea and how it may actually work....

    maybe you are Stephen Conroy....wow you know what l33t means........

    Great Wall of China Anonymous -- 16/03/09

    If you're of the belief that the ISP filtering proposal will only remove "refuse classification (RC) material", have a listen to the recent Background Briefing program "Conroy's Clean Feed" at http://www.abc.net.au/rn/backgroundbriefing/

    Greedy? BieRHeDD -- 16/03/09

    I find it a tad ironic when a politician frowns upon those eager to get some of funding from the taxpayer moneybin... for a government project... how many fine dinners and how much first class travel has Mr Conroy charged to us underneath his veil of innocence during this whole farce?

    Download The Banned List of URLs Anonymous -- 16/03/09

    This is actually going to promote the info on the list !!!!!

    People will bypass the filter and be able to see what is actually filtered. They will run scripts to see what is available with and without the filter.

    Large portions the actual list of urls etc will be published online and distributed.

    This Conroy plan is just spending millions and actually going to increase the amount this content is downloaded

    Back Peddle? Reece -- 16/03/09

    So.. what ever happend to 'Other Unwanted Material' Conroy? Are you lying by vagueness?
    This filter is a bad idea.
    As far as your so called Greedy ISP's, what do you expect you over-generalising fool. Besides the fact that you are using the same usless heckle rasing tactics as you did by labeling anti filter advocates as pro child porn, are you calling iinet greedy? how about optus? Is that what you are saying? Stop being vague and underhanded.. and for all our sakes stop pretending to be stupid.

    Great wall of China Anonymous -- 16/03/09

    I think you mean great FIREwall of China.

    Greedy? How shallow sighted indeed. Andrew McGlashan -- 16/03/09

    There is a clear cost, in more ways than one, to implementing filtering. The "richer" ISPs with higher customer fees and therefore fat profit margins can afford to absorb these costs.

    The "value" ISPs, on the other hand, will have little choice but to increase pricing to the end customer. The only alternative is to partake in some of the pie that has been set aside for this particular purpose... and that is being greedy? I don't think so.

    The ISP industry operates on very thin margins in Australia with much of the monies taken in from customers going towards considerable wholesale and operational costs. In particular, there are excessive fees being paid to Telstra Wholesale one way or another for almost every DSL service; exceptions are rare and not noteworthy.

    It is short sighted of the government to deny those less affluent ISPs any benefits they may perceive with filtering participation. Let's not forget that this is to implement a government policy that the majority of informed citizens believe to be a complete waste of money and effort, heck, even the Chinese government can't stop things as well as they would like...

    I do understand that many parents see this as their only way to protect their kids and it might well be if PCs are hidden away in bedrooms behind closed doors acting as the modern day nanny.

    Ignorant once again Anonymous -- 16/03/09

    Conroy has once again demonstrated how ignorant he is of the industry he is supposed to oversee - what a sad state of affairs we find ourselves in!

    Just get Google to filter it Anonymous -- 17/03/09

    In all my years browsing around the internet I would have to say that accessing "RC" materials is not something you generally just browse across or have pop-up on your screen (unlike popup pornography).

    Why don't we save everyone time, cost and technology sinkholes and get the search engines such as google to filter this. After all, there is nothing saying that we have to adopt a full implementation of the great internet wall of China, google are already part and parcel to this approach anyway.

    Anyone watched Sesame Street lately? Because if the so called promise is to make the internet safe for children to browse then that's about all you'll be able to see....

    Setup a goverment based "child safe" proxy service and parents can point the web proxy settings at that and only "child safe" content will be allowed to pass. I'm sure that this would deliver on the promises and the capabilities.

    The BIG picture Anonymous -- 17/03/09 (in reply to #320125851)

    "Setup a.."child safe" proxy service.."

    Good idea, but an old one ~ opendns.com have been there for FREE doing the same with the "opt-out" option for when the kids leave home. (It's known to happen)

    The Conroy filter is about blocking information sites like australiamatters.com that are showing other Rudd agenda's called a "new world order".

    Last week Rudd "slipped an amendment into a miscellaneous defence bill" jailing folks for 7 years if they go near Pine Gap. This week "unsure" Wayne Swan at the G20 is hand out blank cheques to the IMF. Stand back and see the "for the children" BIG picture.

    ISP filtering does work folks... Security Techo -- 17/03/09

    Just for the record and to answer the oft distributed claim of large network performance degradation issues:
    Carrier BSNL in India has been running mandatory blacklist ISP filtering for approx. 5 million internet users for just on a year, as stage one of the rollo-out. This was such as success that they are now moving to stage two and filtering an additional 4 million internet users.
    BSNL also runs the YouTube servers in India with approx. 15 million users daily, also with blacklist filtering.
    They have neither performance degradation issues or costs blowouts to date. The vendor, Netsweeper of Canada, has met or exceeded all SLA specs, which stipulates sub 10 millisecond URL lookups and a capacity for a 200,000 address blacklist.
    There have been no major access issues or breakdowns, no network blockages and domain name/IP address issues.
    The public in India is prone and known to protest, and the BSNL customers has not as yet had any issues with this mandatory ISP filtering.
    Once BSNL, a government telco, has finished the rollout, the rest of the industry will be required to follow suit.
    There is no noticeable delay factor for customers to date. The Netsweeper system does not use the slower proxy technology, (unsuitable for large ISPs), has a 1.2 billion URL database, averages a 5 millisecond internet address lookup in the ISP datacentre and does the new URL categorization in near real time in the background.
    To date they have not been able to find any 10 yo kids who can get around the system, although they do have plenty of them.
    BTW: Proxy Anonymizers can be completely blocked with Netsweeper, and 10 yo kids rarely get VPN connections up all by themselves...

    O RLY Anonymous -- 17/03/09 (in reply to #320125875)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houseplant
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Plant
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Plant

    What do the three have in common?

    This person works for either Netclean, 8e6, Copyrouter, or a partner/reseller thereof.

    Or... Anonymous -- 17/03/09 (in reply to #320125893)

    ...they work for Netsweeper.

    Just goes to show how far one normally has to get into a comment like theirs before the stink of schillery overpowers the senses...

    The norm Anonymous -- 17/03/09 (in reply to #320125894)

    What's the difference between this guy and Telstra boy Sydney Lawrence or everyone but Telstra boy Mel Sommersberg's, comments? They are all as crazily one sided as each other.

    Sadly, hidden agendas and profiteering comments happen all the time, from people like these.

    The Norm Anonymous -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320125896)

    This was a simple and clear depiction of a system of this magnitude that actually works. Why do you have a problem with that?

    What has proof of concept got to do with "hidden agendas" and profiteering? What is one sided about tabling a model that works?

    So you are against mandatory censorship? Neil McAliece -- 17/03/09 (in reply to #320125875)

    Thanks Security Techo. I don't think you're going to increase your profits by trying to convince people how well mandatory blacklisting can work. (even though some of Conroy's own examples had some serious stumbles).

    Very effective mandatory blocking of the ACMA blacklist is going to be more repugnant than broken filtering on the non-tech side of the arguement.

    Are you trying to kill profitibility?

    So you are against mandatory censorship? Anonymous -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320125897)

    Neil, you have missed the point again.

    Why is it when someone weighs in with any form of counter argument about successful filtering models, that you jump on the "profits" argument?

    It was clearly a statement explaining that this model of filtering can work and does already work in one large implementation.

    Care to discuss that point and not divert again?

    Thanks...

    response to "ISP filtering does work folks..." Anonymous -- 17/03/09 (in reply to #320125875)

    you sum it all up in the last line of your comments..

    "10 yo kids rarely get VPN connections up all by themselves..."

    actually...setting up a VPN is VERY easy and i know a lot of kids who can do this....

    you need to be able to use this complex thing called, "google", to do a search for a tutorial....

    response to "ISP filtering does work folks..." Anonymous -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320125905)

    Sure, in the rarified world where older folks teach and train the 10 yo kids to setup VPNs...

    In the average household your average 10yo rarely and seldom. of his own initiative, gets up on Google and seeks out a tutorial on setting up VPN connections, sets up an account somewhere to terminate this and begins to play WoW on it...

    But yes, I can tutor my son as well to do it and he would eventually get it going. But paying for the VPN service with my Mastercard is going to be harder for him...

    Proxys "internet prohibited"? Neil McAliece -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320125875)

    Security Techo, isn't there a flaw in your plan for global domination. Is there actually any legislative framework permitting a mandatory block for all Australians to all proxy servers?

    What are your grounds for suggesting that this might be okay in Australia? Proxies certainly aren't something that's in the scope of the ACMA blacklist.

    Senator Conroy has clearly and unambiguously stated that there will not be and that they aren't considering any penalties for filter circumvention.

    Please respond with how you could get away with blocking all Australians from proxy servers.

    You aren't selling a filter to a school. It's meant to be national and mandatory.

    Proxys "internet prohibited"? Anonymous -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320125954)

    Neil, I never stated it should be done, I stated that it could be done, that the technology is available.
    You are jumping at the wrong point. Are you responding to discuss or just to attack?
    Take your political argument to Conroy...

    Proxys "internet prohibited"? Anonymous -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320125954)

    BTW Neil: I gave an example of a 5 million user mandatory ISP blacklist filtering implementation, and you come back with a question about selling filters to a school??

    Did you understand the post at all or are you just trying real hard to avoid discussing the actual aspects of the successful install at BSNL?

    BSNL is a national telco and carrier ISP, has a larger install base than any ISP in Oz, does use a URL and protocol based filtering model, does work well and seems to be blithely ignored in the technology discussions...

    I would like to see fact based counterpoints proving why the technology itself would not work. Just that. No politics please.

    Is a sub 10ms lookup timeframe spread over multiple lookup servers (averaged sub 5ms on blacklists) in multiple ISP datacentres on Australian ISP backbones going to be a working technical model or not - when looking specifically at the question of avoiding major performance degradation?

    Study the BSNL model, not just the failed models elsewhere, and show us all where this does not function. Take up your tech discussions with the CIO of Netsweeper and BSNL if you wish.

    Big question: Can blacklist filtering technically work at this scope or not? Then work on your workarounds as much as you like, but first prove that the BSNL model does not actually work... Thanks Neil.

    Your "big question" is irrelevant. Anonymous -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320125966)

    Mandatory blocking of material on a secret blacklist by an unaccountable body of unelected faceless bureaucrats is something that should outrage EVERYONE.

    "Can it work" is not something we should be asking. We shouldn't even have to ask "should it be done?"

    What we need to be asking is "how do we stop it?"

    You have a vested interest in schilling your censorware. We understand that. But you need to understand that it makes you our enemy.

    Quite frankly, you are the equivalent of an arms dealer in Madagascar.

    Your "big question" is irrelevant. Anonymous -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320125969)

    Hi Anon, the "big question" is not irrelevant, as it has been brought up and tabled many, many times by your associates in their battle against the ISP filtering proposal.

    The anti-filtering movement has continually claimed that a system of this scope simply cannot function without serious performance degradation, and I am simply responding that it can function without serious performance degradation, and have tabled an example of an implementation that proves that mandatory URL based blacklist filtering at a 5 million user install does work and has been working for a while.

    That is all I tabled, a technical example answering technical claims. Refute the technical claims and prove it does not work, bring some proof, and I will gladly enter into further discussions.

    Attack the government proposal based on the politics and ethics questions as strongly as you want, I have no argument there to table. But claims that the system is doomed to failure due to there being a lack of technology and existing, functioning platforms is simply not accurate...

    Remember, I did not raise the technology question...

    Your "big question" is irrelevant. Security Techo -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320125969)

    Hey Anonymous, so does that mean that you are going to be attacking the ISP proposal principles and the "censorware" application, or is it going to degrade into personal attacks on your "enemy"...?

    Just let me know so that I can brief my litigation lawyers. Thanks...

    Some of the stuff I have recently read in the blogosphere and forums would be worthy of their attention.

    So in comparing me to an arms dealer in Madagascar, you are referring to those who supply weapons and ammo used in the physical massacre of women and children, innocent bystanders, are used to torture and maim, used to protect soldiers and terrorists during mass rapes, blow up schools etc?

    Just wanting to explore your understanding of the comparison and your grip on reality, as well as your estimation of the probable effects of the internet filtering proposed...

    Litigation lawyers? Oh noes! Anonymous -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320125979)

    First off, neither one of us is posting with their real name, so there are no grounds for litigation of any kind. Additionally, we don't have lawyers in this country: we have solicitors.

    The arms dealer comparison is perfectly valid: you and your censorware vendor ilk are seeking to profiteer from the unjust persecution of innocent civilians.

    We free speach advocates have had to deal with being called child abusers and paedophile enablers by the pro-filter brigade, so I don't see why the enablers of secret censorship should be seen in any better light.

    Litigation lawyers? Oh noes! Security Techo -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320125982)

    You may wish to get your facts right first of all:

    http://blakes.com/english/practiceareas/areas.asp?Search=Description&Area=Litigation&loc=

    They will decide if there is grounds for litigation, not Australian solicitors. But this is irrelevant to the topic tabled, just a teaser...

    Next though, you may wish to prove to me that the organization where you work or study does not have any content filtering measures in place?

    Next, you may wish to prove, not simply assert, that the services delivered by content filtering and web access vendors globally are all unjust & profiteering persecutions.

    Millions of students are protected daily by their "ilk", millions of businesses that pay your wages remain productive due to the technologies they deliver.

    Keep some perspective.

    Your problems with others and what you perceive they call you has absolutely nothing to do with whether the BSNL system technically functions or not. Try and keep to the topic tabled.

    I responded to technical infrastructure claims, and that has zero relevance with your local Australian political issues Anon.

    Give it a rest Anonymous -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320125992)

    So you can perform a Google search for "litigation lawyers canada". Well done. Would you like a cookie?

    If the organisation where I work or study CHOOSES to emplace some form of automated filter, it is exactly that: their CHOICE.

    Schools and businesses CHOOSE to install content filtering software - usually to protect the school or business itself from frivolous lawsuits rather than to "protect" students directly, as you insinuate (besides, ask a teacher who has to compile all her class material at home where there is no filter whether she thinks her students are being "protected"). Additionally, many businesses are even realising that blocking things like Facebook actually makes their employess LESS productive.

    What the Australian Government is attempting to do will remove that CHOICE for 22 million citizens. ANY organisation that's happy to say "Sure, we'll help you suppress freedom of speech amongst your citizens! Here's some boxes!" is guilty of unjust & profiteering practices. Yes, that does include Google for bending over to China's shenanigans. And if Netsweeper want to be associated with this kind of activity, that's exactly the kind of label they can expect to have slapped on them, too. Free speech is a wonderful thing (until you filter it).

    Protesting that "responding to technical infrastructure claims has zero relevance with political issues" (paraphrased) is bullshit: would you be so quick to eager your hand up and say "Sure it's possible, we do it all the time!" if your example were China instead of India? Didn't think so!

    YOU are the one who came to an AUSTRALIAN website discussing an AUSTRALIAN issue, and you have the balls to claim that your comment "has zero relevance with your local Australian political issues??" Here's a thought: maybe if you didn't stick your dick in the fire, it wouldn't get burned off.

    Give it a rest Security Techo -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320126001)

    I just knew you would bite.... lol

    I will put away the fishing rod and give it a rest, sure.

    But cop this: Claiming that it is OK to misrepresent the technical feasibility because you find the proposed scheme ethically unacceptable is just ludicrous.

    What has China got to do with what BSNL does in India? Totally different processes being used. You might want to get your facts right on that one.

    Give it a rest Anonymous -- 18/03/09 (in reply to #320126018)

    I claim that the technical feasibility is IRRELEVANT because the proposed scheme is ethically unacceptable.

    Give it a rest Security Techo -- 19/03/09 (in reply to #320126001)

    Good evening Anon, your post here is worth a couple of comments:
    The end users in the organizations do not have a choice if they wish to continue using the internet access at that organization, let's get that facts sorted out first.
    Once they logon it is mandatory, companies and schools rarely offer "opt-in" filtering. It is mandatory.
    The organizations have the right to choose, and they vote overwhelmingly with their digital feet: The get filtering and make it mandatory for their students or staff.
    When organizations began to introduce filtering there was also a storm of protest about "freedom of access", human rights and privacy.
    However, over time it has become clearly accepted that these organizations have a duty of care and responsibility for what appears on the screens, and therefore the authority to introduce measures that restrict the possibility for unacceptable content to appear, be viewed or be downloaded.
    The responsibility of management and accountability clearly preceded the employees and students perceived or real "rights" when using that internet access.
    Thus the filtering where you work or study is mandatory. And I am sure that you have options to workaround and circumvent those security measures. However, most people know that there will be consequences if they are caught using those work-arounds or contravene the rules applying to using that internet access.
    These rules are now entrenched in laws in most democracies.
    Australia, when I last looked, is a robust democracy.
    Like it or not, the group responsible and accountable for the security and duty of care relating to public internet access is your government.
    Not the ISPs, not the blogosphere, not Whirlpool and not me or you.
    If an industry cannot self-regulate, then governments will always have to step in and apply new rules, laws and measures. That is what you are stuck with now.
    If a company does not regulate the use of internet in their organization then they are open to eventual litigation and prosecution.
    Pointing responsibility at the parents is a giant and clumsy red herring, the internet is omnipresent and accessible almost anywhere.
    We wanted it that way and now we have it that way.
    So your government decides to block access to the worst aspects of the internet and you have a Classification Board to monitor that. Irrespective of how the system works today, it will work differently tomorrow, the CB will be making the decisions and your ACMA will just be the management layer.
    You are right that IF a measure is unethical then the technical means are nil relevance, however you are very, very far from demonstrating that this proposed filtering is unethical. There are many wild claims but few verifiable facts.
    One blatantly inaccurate claim is that the technology is not available to make the current proposals work, and that there is no working example of a mandatory ISP blacklist filtering available to research. There is one, I have presented it and you and your associates are welcome to research it.
    BSNL India.
    It is easy to ridicule a proposal if you focus only on the instances where it did not yet work, instaed of actually looking into working examples.
    BTW: What makes you think that my gender has what you refer to in the last line?

    @Security Techo Anonymous -- 19/03/09 (in reply to #320126077)

    Clearly you have a vested interest.
    To see what uninvolved people in another country think, I suggest you visit http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/18/aussie_firewall_wikileaks/comments/

    BSNL Internet Filtering Odd Chicken -- 19/03/09 (in reply to #320126077)

    Let's start from the beginning shall we.

    India's filtering had issues with overblocking (yahoo groups), as well as blocking blog sites, trying to block google maps etc, presenting multiple ethical arguments and dialogues.

    The current proposed plan has had software tested, that software has shown clear performance degridation directly related to the amount of content blocked.

    ACMA as has been proven quite recently, hardly represents an open transparent process that is acceptable to a democratic society and is open to abuse (see pro-abortion site issue).

    Sen. Conroy refuses to entail information as to the disclosure of what is and isnt unwanted content and when there is repeated evidence through hansard and news reports that this changes on a daily basis, we have reason to be concerned.

    The proposal fails on its merits before it's even begun, as the Sen has come out and said he has no issues with proxys and vpns, doesn't stop the distribution via peer 2 peer.

    The ACMA blacklist also contains legal to view content, if this isnt unethical then I don't know what is.

    Organisations already offer filtering through a "duty of care", the system of self regulation is already in place, why do we need government intervention when the populace doesn't wish to take up the solution?

    This government, has yet to prove how this plan will actually meet the objectives, provide any information as to how it will operate, release test results or show any signs of a working democratically elected organisation. We have every right to then question and attack the governments proposal.

    Finally, there are 3 quite simple workarounds to the BSNL filter which allows the user to view blocked content, please direct your attention to labnol.blogspot.

    Government test results Anonymous -- 19/03/09 (in reply to #320126083)

    There have been several tests performed to adjudicate the effectiveness of ISP-level censorship in Australia.

    Every single one came back saying "bad idea."

    That's why Conroy has ordered ANOTHER test: he's hoping this one will be skewed enough to be able to pretend it ISN'T a complete clusterf**k.

    BSNL Internet Filtering Security Techo -- 19/03/09 (in reply to #320126083)

    Hi Odd Chicken:

    "We have every right to then question and attack the governments proposal."

    Agreed, of course you do. Australia is a democracy last time I looked, and I have no expectation that this will change, with or without ISP filtering...

    Very happy to review any documentation on the **current** status of the BSNL network filtering and any side effects. As you will clearly understand, verifiable documentation would be the appropriate format. Naturally there were earlier issues and integration processes, however verifiable reviews of the current performance levels and any existing issues would be useful to all parties concerned.

    Of course there were discussions and dialogues, India is also a pretty open society. But I dare say less that the lively discussions in Australia around the subject. You will never keep all of the people happy all of the time, and if you expect any system to achieve that then you may be setting the expectations too high.

    Also, and I am assuming that you have a good understanding of the technologies here, there is no such thing as "overblocking" in a URL blacklist filtering environment. The URL blacklist will block the URL listed on a positive match basis. Down to individual objects if required. Any webpages mistakenly blocked are the result of false entries in the blacklist itself, which is not a product of the technology platform but of the URL blacklist management process.

    As for past software tests in Australia on an ISP filtering level, well these all seem to have not been suitable at all and have proven to not be able to meet the performance requirements, and as far as I know have never included testing of the Netsweeper ISP Filtering Platform.

    Thus we would both have a an extremely difficult time trying to match up a comparison here. Hard to comment on a test or evaluation that has not yet been facilitated.

    As for the political issues you raise, well that is an issue for you and your government. I cannot help you there but I do hope that you continue to enjoy such a great democracy and am happy to see you all rid of that Telstra management team...

    Workarounds there will almost always be, but perfect blocking was not the requirement of the India government. They are pleased that they have significantly reduced the amount of **unacceptable** and/or prohibited materials being viewed or downloaded via the Internet. Despite many other aspects, they are very pragmatic in this respect and value improvements in this area, and they have not yet experienced a massive "bypassing" effect. Indeed, with the mandatory filtering in place with only BSNL, this carrier is still enjoying significant growth.

    This would suggest that the general public is quite happy with the BSNL performance and filtering, and is not leaving them in droves at all...

    Filtiering ISP in India Anonymous -- 19/03/09 (in reply to #320125966)

    Your Information is incorrect. What are your sources. My understanding is that execs at the ISP concerned are far from happy with a number of aspects of the filtering process - including performance - that is if we are talking about the samething. Again where ais your information comimg from?

    Filtiering ISP in India Security Techo -- 20/03/09 (in reply to #320126184)

    I don't think so...
    My info is from the GM of the Broadband Division, with glowing references...
    We could be talking past each other though...
    They are currently upgrading the NS filtering from 5 mio users to 9 mio users... That transition produces it's own issues...
    Hardly a sign that the filtering performance is the issue... NS are well within all SLA measurables.

    gfdgfd Anonymous -- 17/03/09

    this guy needs to get a real job and get off my tax payroll

    Conroy scuttled the filter himself! Dale -- 23/03/09

    With Internode hammering this idea into the ground where it should be, and iiNet putting their hand up for the trial to show how stupid it is, Conroy must really be in a panic. I can just see him peeping out from under his desk.

    Does anybody really think that the major players really need to make a grab for Commonwealth money for equipment upgrades?

    Does anybody really think that by participating these tiny ISPs are not making a grab for more customers?

    When all is said and done, and quashed, Conroy is not smart enough to save face with this one. Oh well.

    BSNL filtering Anonymous -- 27/03/09

    Interesting on the filtering side, the BSNL carrier seems doesnt seems to drop speed when filtering is put on. Apparently cause it's very slow !! so no difference is noticable when the filter is put on. Just google it, a lot of complain about slow speed, even someone upgrade their plan to faster plan, it's still terribly slow. some even complained of getting line speed 15 to 20 kbps

    What about the next government? Joel McColl -- 27/03/09

    Even if they have the good intention of protecting children (why do I smell hipocrisy?), what about the next government? What safeguards does the law have so that it will not be abused by a rightist government if every they come into power? This stupidity has got to stop now? If it does not, I am absolutely sure that Australian internet will be no different to China. Besides, it seems like protecting the children has been the favourite justification for almost everything!

    SSH to the rescue Andrew X -- 15/04/09

    Thank god for SSH- which subject to international laws will give completely anonymous data acces... Or will corporate VLANs encryption be prohibited unless the government can break it in real time?

    What does Verisign and other sellers of RSA solutions think of that one? If you are downloading an encrypted movie for storage the performance degradation of setting up the encrypted link will be unnoticable.

    The number of ways holes can be drilled straight through the blacklist is unbelievable....

    The ACMA list, if it must exist, must be amended to include descriptions of the sites banned and reasons why, this must be published without revealing URLs.

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