Java blamed for Net banking lockout

A online banking customer contacted ZDNet Australia yesterday, claiming that he was unable to access Internet banking on St George Bank's Web site when using Windows XP, and was getting a Java error message.

A spokesperson from St George Bank confirmed that customers using Windows XP or Explorer 6 would need to download Java in order to use its Internet banking. However, the spokesperson alleged that this would be the case with any site powered by Java, not just St George Bank's Web site.

He said the first time customers tried to logon to its Internet banking they would be prompted to download the software required.

According to the St George Bank spokesperson, the Java error message would be displayed if the user had not downloaded the software needed when prompted.

Paul Roworth, product marketing manager for Windows XP at Microsoft Australia, confirmed that the Java virtual machine was not included in its Windows XP or Explorer 6.

-Essentially with Windows XP the decision was made, in wake of the settlement agreement with Sun and resolution of that litigation, to not include the [Microsoft] Java virtual machine," Roworth said.

Roworth said it wasn't denying customers gaining access to Java support in Windows XP. He said that for users upgrading to Windows XP from a previous installation of Windows which had included its Java virtual machine, then the Java virtual machine would still be retained.

He said that users who went to a site which had Java code on it, which requires the Java virtual machine, will be prompted to download it.

For users buying a new PC, Roworth said the OEM of the hardware and the operating system had the ability to preinstall the Java virtual machine in the image put onto that machine.

He said it was the same with corporate customers who were doing a standard operating environment rollout throughout their organisation, where the Java virtual machine could be preinstalled in the image.

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Example of Petty and Beligeran ...Anonymous -- 04/04/02

Example of Petty and Beligerant contempt for customers by Microsoft.
Does MS really think they can persuade site builders and clients to change to MS products by by engaging in such petty actions as leaving out the Java Virtual in new releases and saying customers can download or deploy it themselves.

Of course the clients will download the required Java VM and they'll remember who unnecessarily caused the grief.
Roll on the Linux and other MS replacements!!

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What an "unbiased" t ...Aa Bb -- 04/04/02

What an "unbiased" title to the article!!!!!!

Is it Java's fault that it is not included in the latest Microsoft operating systems?

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Did the first person commentin ...Anonymous -- 04/04/02

Did the first person commenting even read the article?

"Essentially with Windows XP the decision was made, in wake of the settlement agreement with Sun and resolution of that litigation, to not include the [Microsoft] Java virtual machine,” Roworth said"

As part of a legal agreement with Sun, microsoft agreed not to include the virtual machine.

Wow.

Big deal. I suppose this is just going to end up as another conspiricy theory where microsoft planned this deliberately as part of the take over of the world. Its this simple. If you don't want to use MS products, then DON'T! Don't continually moan to everyone about how much it sucks or whatever, or how microsoft bought the rights for the recipe to KFC's secret herbs and spices just so some unix geek somewhere can't release a free version of it.

I maintain and operate several unix systems, and a hell of a lot of MS systems. Hey there are even some netware systems in there. You use what the customer or yourself needs to get the job done in a way acceptable to the environment you are going to be using it in.

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Not entirely correct. If you h ...Anonymous -- 05/04/02

Not entirely correct. If you have windows XP you have the option to use the SUN Java Runtime Environment. This is incompatible with St George Internet Banking. Have a look at the following link.

http://www.stgeorge.com.au/code/int_bank/top_ten/default.asp

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john . well you just exposed ...Anonymous -- 05/04/02

john . well you just exposed yourself to be the fool that you are, you obvously have no idea why it is not included ! , maybe you should crawl out from under the rock you have been hiding under and you might of seen a mention of a court case between sun and microsoft..

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Why is this a big deal? If I w ...Anonymous -- 05/04/02

Why is this a big deal? If I want to listen to Real Audio or see Real Video, I download the Real Player or whatever, to do the job.

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Being a Director of Technology ...Anonymous -- 05/04/02

Being a Director of Technology with a background in both Windows and Unix, it's difficult for me to label one better than the other blindly. They each have their respective strengths and weakness for specific jobs.

I was actually appalled by the inaccuracy of the title of the article you wrote (see subject). I'm actually surprised Sun hasn't ordered a cease-and-desist. Java was not blamed for the Net Banking lockout. The removal of java-support from Windows XP actually caused the lockout; hence Windows XP (or Microsoft) is to blame. The actual Java VM itself had absolutely nothing to do with it.

From one professional to another, I hope that in future articles you will not mislead readers simply for sensationlism. I've come to expect
stories on ZDnet to be straight-forward and to-the-point, but this one deviates severely from that, and the title belongs in some trash magazine.

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Got all the historical info ri ...Anonymous -- 05/04/02

Got all the historical info right?
If we just look at the settlement from the lawsuit then it's a fact that the lack of JAVA VM in XP is the result of request by SUN Inc.
However, have we all forgot that the basis of the case is that Microsoft's JAVA VM is not compatiable with JAVA standard. Conspiracy or not, it is logical to reason that Microsoft delibrately made the JAVA VM incompatiable out of business interest (Microsoft standard & platform V.S. Open standard and cross-platform)

Flaming Microsoft or not, it's a headache maintaining different web pages and application on a supposed to be open standard environment like Internet.

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The one thing that I must ask ...Anonymous -- 08/04/02

The one thing that I must ask is- why the Bank is using Java at all? I hate the big fat rich client application downloaded through a browser. Why not deliver the application as HTML/DHTML to the client so that all I need is a browser.

We have an open standard for publishing information into this generic client - The Browser, be it IE, NS, Opera or what ever - why not use that open standard?

Java is a proprietary technology (and before all you Java weenies scream, show me where I can get all the information about implementing the Java Language, JVM, etc on a standards body web site ie: W3C, IETF, ISO..., it does not exist as Sun controls these standards, and controls the process for these standards) requiring proprietary technology to run, whereas HTML is an open standard, and works will independent of Platform, Browser Implementation, and allows for a host of other features.

Here is a example, lets say I am a blind user, Windows XP has support for the blind built into it, and will happily babble away reading the contents of a HTML page to me, then I jump over to the banking site, and I can’t use it, all the information is encoded in this proprietary runtime system, and the reader can view the text! I great example of where they should be using HTML for delivery of the information.

Most banks either currently use, or are moving to HTML as the delivery mechanism for their internet banking applications, and this is what they should be using. As a bonus of this, they do not then need to worry about a JVM being available, lets all stick to OPEN standards.

So in my opinion - Say no to Java Fat client applications! Use HTML, maybe some applets if they make sense, but make the delivery of the application work with open standards – HTML, XML, XSL, and Web Services.

PS: Vivienne Fisher really needs to get a life here, and a new job what a sad article, and I suppose that all the problems of the world are MS's fault, really how biased can you get, did you not get a invite to a MS junket sweetie...poor petal

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Look it doesn't matter what si ...Anonymous -- 08/04/02

Look it doesn't matter what site you go to that uses a technology your PC doesn't have installed it will ask you to install it and java is no different. It'll probably even take you the site where you have to go to download the neccessary software well Mozilla does this I don't know about IE as I don't use it.

I can't see what the problem is here? So Microsoft removes java from Windows XP so what? Go to Java's web site and download it again it's not hard. Maybe your too lazy to do this or don't know where to go so ok let me help you.

To download Java go here:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/download.html

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