The beginning of the end for Microsoft?

commentary Franklin Fisher, Massachusetts Institute of Technology economics professor, once said Microsoft's customers believed there were no serious commercial contenders to the Windows operating system.

During the Microsoft-US Justice Department anti-trust trial in 1999, Fisher testified that this view was also shared by the software giant's hardware partners.

While alternatives to the Windows operating system and Microsoft's cash cow -- its Office productivity suite -- have long existed, these products, including OS/2 and WordPerfect, failed to make a lasting impression on the IT community.

Fast forward to 2004.

Today, competitors to Microsoft, such as Sun Microsystems, are slowly but surely gaining ground at its expense and this could well mark the start of a mass customer exodus from Microsoft -- at least for select products. It seems the recurring complaints by Microsoft's clients over issues pertaining to security, reliability and the hidden cost of its offerings have fallen on the right ears.

Embattled enterprises looking for answers can perhaps find some solace in one Australian story -- how the New South Wales Roads and Traffic Authority (RTA) hopes to save millions by ditching Microsoft.

Last week, the RTA announced the migration of 1,500 users across 120 offices from Microsoft Exchange to Sun Microsystems' Java System Messaging and Calendar Servers for e-mail and calendaring. The deal includes Sun's StarOffice productivity suite for word processing, spreadsheets and presentations, the Mozilla browser, and a backend consolidation exercise to Sun servers running on Linux. Financial details weren't disclosed.

Greg Carvouni, the RTA chief information officer, described the move as an effort to reduce "escalating software and maintenance costs." He later told ZDNet Australia he was simply tired of the constant barrage of viruses and vulnerabilities plaguing Microsoft's products.

These deficiencies were hurting RTA's bottom line and the rot had to end. Without Microsoft, Carvouni aims to realise savings of up to AU$2 million over the next few years.

The RTA decision is hardly surprising, though. Throughout his five-year tenure, Carvouni has been a consistent open-standards advocate so the writing has always been on the wall. Besides Australia, government agencies in Europe, Asia and Latin America have also adopted Microsoft alternatives or indicated a preference to move in that direction.

Linux-based PCs have been a huge hit in Malaysia's national computer-ownership scheme, far outstripping the sale of Windows machines. The Allied Irish Bank recently decided to migrate 7,500 users from Windows 3.1 to Sun's Java Desktop System. In Thailand, Microsoft will introduce a slimmed-down version of its Windows XP operating system in September -- a move to counter software piracy and the rise of Linux.

The problems facing Microsoft could well be the "perfect storm" it has been trying to avoid. Will weak products finally presage its downfall? Only time will tell but if you ask Carvouni, he'll probably say he's not anti-Microsoft ... just a man trying to keep his job.

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Talkback 25 comments

  1. IBM once used to be the 'Monopolist'. This was bad for the industry, and in a way, bad for IBM. IBM, since then, has become a better ICT citizen, and a far more effective and visionary industry player. It's technology now is not kept back by vir Anonymous -- 30/06/04

    IBM once used to be the 'Monopolist'. This was bad for the industry, and in a way, bad for IBM.

    IBM, since then, has become a better ICT citizen, and a far more effective and visionary industry player. It's technology now is not kept back by virtue of forces within IBM not wanting to perturb cash cows in monopoly market segments.

    This process can also work for Microsoft. Microsoft will not make as much money as it once may have, but it will still be a powerful and successful player, but will no longer have the industry by the throat. This is good for the industry, and in a way, good for Microsoft.

    However, we don't want any other company to step into Microsoft's monopolist shoes, as Microsoft once stepped into IBM's. What we want is an open, vendor neutral platform and software stack, one which can become the equivalent of the TCP/IP network stack, opening the whole industry to complete inter-operation and competition.

    The only platform which can deliver this neutrality is Linux and open source software.

  2. What other open source operating systems that deliver vendor neutrality and industry standards compliance are available? 'The only platform which can deliver this neutrality is Linux and open source software. - Socrates' Anonymous -- 30/06/04

    What other open source operating systems that deliver vendor neutrality and industry standards compliance are available?

    'The only platform which can deliver this neutrality is Linux and open source software. - Socrates'

  3. Citing viruses and vulnerabilities as the main reason for the RTA switching to Linux from MS is a little worrying and probably explains why there seems to be such a small payoff - 'up to AU$2 million over the next few years' a) sounds a bit of a woolly fi Anonymous -- 30/06/04

    Citing viruses and vulnerabilities as the main reason for the RTA switching to Linux from MS is a little worrying and probably explains why there seems to be such a small payoff - 'up to AU$2 million over the next few years' a) sounds a bit of a woolly figure and b) doesn't sound very high for an organisation the size of the RTA.
    It's also short sighted. Linux is arguably less secure than windows in terms of vulnerabilities and when/if Windows loses its ubiquity, you'll probably see as many viruses and vulnerabilities appearing targetting Linux (and specific flavours of Linux at that), leaving them in the same boat. It isn't so noticable currently, because there's no glory in it for script kiddies and no money in it for spammers. There's also the issue of whether the Linux supplier will have the resources that MS has to throw at fixing vulnerabilities.
    Even if the RTA is saving is $2M, they could have spent far less and invested in better training/security measures for prevention.

    There may well be other benefits for organisations migrating to Linux aside from security issues, but the more this happens, the better off MS users will become as MS will undoubtedly be forced to lower their prices in response to the competition. MS has vast cash reserves to weather such a war.

    Until Linux starts to make inroads into the home/small business market, which is far greater and more amenable to technical and mental lock-in than the corporate market, MS will continue to rule the roost. That's not going to happen until PC makers start selling Linux PC's that can do as much as MS can at home and as easily - from the office type wares to the main driver for home PC upgrades, games software.

  4. The idea that Linux is not as secure as Windows is laughable but lets just put that to one side and focus on the comment that if Linux becomes as popular as Windows it will be just as targeted and vulnerable. This is simply not true. The reason Anonymous -- 01/07/04

    The idea that Linux is not as secure as Windows is laughable but lets just put that to one side and focus on the comment that if Linux becomes as popular as Windows it will be just as targeted and vulnerable. This is simply not true.

    The reason Linux will not suffer the fate of Windows is the lack of standard pieces of software. When comparing the security of Windows to that of Linux often the stats don't add up because they include vulnerabilities in the many many applications that come with Linux. Windows comes with very very little by comparison.

    However, if for instance Mozilla was to turn out to be too much of a security liability a Linux user can switch to another browser easily. Same goes for other software as open source software sticks to open standards far better than MS software does. A typical Windows PC will have IE, MS Office and Outlook installed. Vulnerabilities in these can have a drastic effect and few PC users will explore alternatives leading to the dreaded monoculture. Contrast that with Linux where you can not only change any one of the applications you use easily but if a particular Linux distribution proves too vulnerable you can switch to another tighter one, or to BSD, or Solaris or many other *nix based operating systems. You can even switch hardware platforms, moving to SPARC, Alpha, MIPS, PPC and so on. If MS isn't doing a good job (and it really really isn't) then you have no option but to ride out the storm, you can't go to another vendor and use their version of Windows, or run Windows on another type of CPU.

    Linux and its relatives are a much more vibrant environment with many more options than Windows gives and this is what will limit the occurance of malware compared with Windows. Besides which, on a Linux system you have much more control over what software and services your system is running. Windows can't compete with that.

    The old "if Linux was as popular as Windows it would be as vulnerable as Windows" just doesn't wash. The problem with MS is they want to control the OS *AND* the applications. This is really bad. They made a dreadful decision with IE by welding it into the OS for no good reason other than anti-competitive ones. Junking Windows because of all the security issues is a very good idea indeed and shifting to Linux or BSD or Solaris or OSX or AIX or HPUX or......, well, you get the picture. Lockin? What lockin!

  5. Re:Linux Not As Secure.. I have been reading the comments and agree that once Linux starts getting a noticable marketshare...it will be attacked just as much as Microsoft. As far as a Linux user switching browsers if they find Mozilla Anonymous -- 01/07/04

    Re:Linux Not As Secure..

    I have been reading the comments and agree that once Linux starts getting a noticable marketshare...it will be attacked just as much as Microsoft.

    As far as a Linux user switching browsers if they find Mozilla is being attacked. I would like to see the average user locate, install, and use a browser on a Linux machine without a single hitch.

    Windows users can install Opera (great browser), Netscape and others if they are not pleased with IE.

    Open Office also runs on Windows, in fact I recommend it highly to people who do not wish to spend $130 for the student version of MS Office.

    Don't get me wrong, Linux has been good for Microsoft in that it is forcing them to pay attention and not get fat and lazy.

  6. Many target Microsoft for it poor security, however i see things a little different. I agree with some of the other comments raised, the more linux the vunerable it will be and the more targeted it will be, and besides this it is the most widely Anonymous -- 01/07/04

    Many target Microsoft for it poor security, however i see things a little different.

    I agree with some of the other comments raised, the more linux the vunerable it will be and the more targeted it will be, and besides this it is the most widely hack OS now.

    Microsoft will surprise everyone with its future products, they will be more secure and more innovative. Take a good look at SQL and its technology. Everybody must learn from their mistakes even microsoft, after all we are all only human.

  7. "When Linux is used everywhere, it will have just as many viruses as Windows." I love it when that old chestnut keeps coming up. Every time you see it, you know the writer is conveniently ignoring the Apache vs IIS facts. Fact: Apach Anonymous -- 01/07/04

    "When Linux is used everywhere, it will have just as many viruses as Windows."

    I love it when that old chestnut keeps coming up. Every time you see it, you know the writer is conveniently ignoring the Apache vs IIS facts. Fact: Apache owns 67% of the web server market. Fact: Microsoft IIS has 21%

    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html

    Going by the 'most used' vs 'number of hacks' argument, we should be seeing Apache sites constantly defaced and broken into (a ratio of at least three to one). Why is IIS still targeted, then? Why aren't the crackers and script kiddies finding and exploiting the dominant web platform - a platform, by the way, for which anyone can download and review the source code.

    In other news, my server logs show that IE users have fallen from 98% to 85% over the past 6 months or so. Biggest gainer is Firefox, of course, another piece of software with full source code available, and therefore 'inherantly insecure'.

  8. >>Microsoft will surprise everyone with its future products, they will be more secure and more innovative. Take a good look at SQL and its technology.<< Are you implying that Microsoft invented SQL? As a Systems Administrator, you s Anonymous -- 01/07/04

    >>Microsoft will surprise everyone with its future products, they will be more secure and more innovative. Take a good look at SQL and its technology.<<

    Are you implying that Microsoft invented SQL? As a Systems Administrator, you should know that it was in fact an IBM researcher that invented the SQL language.

    Microsoft didn't even write SQL Server for themselves. They bought it from Sybase.

    Read this interview, to see how Microsoft got hold of SQL Server:
    http://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/DEC/SRC/technical-notes/SRC-1997-018-html/sqlr95-Teradata.html

    And this, to see who in fact invented SQL:
    http://www.faqts.com/knowledge_base/view.phtml/aid/27794/fid/54

  9. At the moment, Linux probably *is* more secure than Windows. To extend the ecosystem 'monoculture' analogy, the greater the population, the more susceptible it will be to attack, whether it be windows or linux. With both Windows and Linux, Providing you Anonymous -- 01/07/04

    At the moment, Linux probably *is* more secure than Windows. To extend the ecosystem 'monoculture' analogy, the greater the population, the more susceptible it will be to attack, whether it be windows or linux. With both Windows and Linux, Providing you innoculate/operate each time a new virus/vulnerability turns up, you are pretty much protected (providing you are not one of the first to catch the disease, but then that's just nature's way). And there has to be a most popular flavour of Linux and that again leads towards a monoculture - everyone wants the best.

    Apache is a good example of a well engineered application that runs on both Linux and Windows - although Linux, I'm guessing, is the OS of choice for cost reasons. Microsoft is quite definitely losing the HTTP internet server battle, but it has a higher percentage install base in the intranet arena.

    Being able to switch application software from one vendor to another sounds just fine and dandy, and in some cases works - Windows has umpteen browsers better than IE to choose from. For a lot of home/small business installations, assuming a basic degree of IT literacy, this isn't really an issue with Windows and wouldn't be with Linux.

    Changing office suites, although presenting a greater issue due to learning curves, still shoudn't be a major problem (I've never tried to change email clients, but I should think that there may be issues there if you want to retain an email history).

    Having said that, how many home/SB users *do* actually change their applications software when there's a vulnerability. Very few I should think, judging from the prevalence of IE browsers and MS Outlook. Is that MS's fault for being good marketers, or is that the user's fault for not caring to change? It doesn't really matter whose fault it is, people don't like changing applications software.

    Ability to switch flavours of OS isn't really an advantage in either camp, however, since most home/SB users would run scared if you asked them to reinstall a different version OS just because there's a security issue. That's a last ditch solution and serious nerd territory.

    And, of course, most home/SB users don't have the resources to change their hardware, that's strictly in the corporate world.

    The point is, it doesn't matter that applications and OS's can be changed; it doesn't matter that Linux is a better/safer/open/vibrant platform; the reality is that the majority of people will not change their software. And I'm sure that could be worked into the ecosystem analogy somewhere too.

    For corporations, changing any software incurs a huge expense and needs careful and in depth justification. More so than 'MS isn't secure enough'. And switching Linux versions or apps software to avoid vulnerabilities at the drop of a hat, just will not happen.

    Security/vulnerability cannot be used to justify a switch from Windows to Linux.

    Windows cannot provide the variety/options you find in Linux because it has to be everything to everybody, but it does give a pretty good 'average' set of functionality that the majority of user's are perfectly happy with and find easy to use.

    To reiterate, until people can buy PC's with Linux installed, that will be as easy to use and provide the same office/browser apps, Linux will remain principally a server OS, where it does seem to be worrying MS.
    Linux clients will remain in the realm of the nerd/technophile, who just love to tweak and change and MS do not have to drop their prices, which is a shame.

    I'm not anti-Linux nor anti-open source, I believe it's good for the IT world, but right now the people who are pushing it are not doing so because it's better than Windows; they are pushing it because they believe they will have an additional revenue stream from supporting it and from selling hardware to run it on.
    PC makers don't provide Linux PC's, because Linux doesn't promote the upgrade cycle and ultimately their sales

  10. Linux vs Windows Security points: (Linux does not equal monoculture in the same way windows does, security models, windows virus marketshare out of proportion with OS marketshare) Viruses rely on the same vulnerability being on a large Anonymous -- 01/07/04

    Linux vs Windows Security points:

    (Linux does not equal monoculture in the same way windows does, security models, windows virus marketshare out of proportion with OS marketshare)

    Viruses rely on the same vulnerability being on a large number of machines - true for windows as there are only a few diff versions of it installed on a large number of machines (generally the most recently), but not the case for linux where different distributions will have different versions of common packages, and each different version has different (if any vulerabilities). In short - you could write a virsus for linux boxes, but the chance of it spreading and getting out of control is far less.

    The security design windows implements is simply less secure than that implemented by linux. Not just having services and ports you're not necessary or even likely to use running and open respectively by default, but the lack of a security model that sandboxes individual users from each other and from the integral system files (lack, that is, except the tacked on model that microsoft has been attempting to implement in recent versions of windows), makes exploitations of software vulnerabilities much easier.

    Ever seen a virus whose name didn't start with W32? Sure there are less linux machines in the world than MS ones, but at least 99.9% of all viruses catalogued by symantec and other antivirus software producers are targetted at the windows platform. More than 0.1% of the world's machines are running linux, trust me.

    Final point: If you're looking to break into a linux machine, you'd have a lot more luck doing it yourself than writing a program (virus) to do it for you - as mentioned above, the lack of standardization as far as software packages across linux distributions means any given vulnerability is not going to be as widespread as it would be if it were a part of the windows OS, even if linux and windows marketshares were equal. Lack of standardization can be a pain, but lack of a monoculture enviroment can be a godsend as far as security goes.

    But breaking into machines by hand is slower than writing scripts to do it for you - would the problems the computing world saw after blaster hit have been anywhere near as bad if for every computer that went down there had to be an evil hacker (i.e. cracker) somewhere in the world manually causing that to happen?

    Methinks no.

    Just my 2c worth

    -d

  11. What a wonky way of thinking. First you say "Linux is arguably less secure than windows in terms of vulnerabilities and when/if Windows loses its ubiquity, you'll probably see as many viruses and vulnerabilities appearing targetting Linux ( Anonymous -- 01/07/04

    What a wonky way of thinking.

    First you say "Linux is arguably less secure than windows in terms of vulnerabilities and when/if Windows loses its ubiquity, you'll probably see as many viruses and vulnerabilities appearing targetting Linux (and specific flavours of Linux at that), leaving them in the same boat."

    You're not only making vague statements with no support, but you're contradicting yourself. Allow me to explain.

    In what non-Microsoft funded study is Linux arguable less secure than Windows? Linux has the following in it favor vis a vis security.

    * Security isn't a after thought, it was considered right from the beginning.
    * Linux has a real concept of users and group, instead of trying to force them into a single user environment. This means its way harder to find 'root' level exploits.
    * Web Browsers, Email clients, etc, aren't intimately connected with the operating system, so they don't have easy access to dangerous system calls.

    As for the irony, you claim that 'as Linux becomes more ubiquitous' and then refer to 'specific flavours of Linux' in the same sentence. This is often overlooked, and one of the good arguments for why viruses won't ever be as effective on Linux. One operating system currently holds 90% of the market, but this doesn't mean that for this to change another must take it's 90% market share. In truth, one of the bebefits of getting out from under Microsoft's control is choice.

    So, you'll be able to work on a file using multiple programs (instead of being forced to use what one company produces). As a result, viruses are either going to have to get a whole load smarter, or they just won't spread at anything like the rate they can. Virus writers won't be able to write for a single platform, but platform differences will be minimal enough that it won't affect the end user. Linux, or rather no particular version of Linux, will have the 90% market share that Windows has, but that's a good thing.

    You also said: "There's also the issue of whether the Linux supplier will have the resources that MS has to throw at fixing vulnerabilities."

    Microsoft might have the funds, but open source developers have far more developers. Far more. Look at the speed in which security updates are released if you don't believe me. Oh, and keep in mind that flaw-to-patch times are when the flaw is found, not when Microsoft acknowledges it. Just because Microsoft doesn't admit it doesn't mean it isn't being abuses.

  12. Most of the comments regarding vulnerabilities in Linux is a bit of a problem of yesterday. The time when all you had to do to take over a machine was to create a bufferoverflow in some service running as root (sysadmin in Linux). This time is gone. Anonymous -- 01/07/04

    Most of the comments regarding vulnerabilities in Linux is a bit of a problem of yesterday. The time when all you had to do to take over a machine was to create a bufferoverflow in some service running as root (sysadmin in Linux). This time is gone.

    Compared to that oldtime Linux, Windows is just as secure or unsecure as Linux the winner depends on the code quality of the day of whatever services is running.

    We can't leave it to the applications to be the only protecting layer. Switching from IE to Mozilla may seam to be a good idea. But in reality it just buys you some time. We need something better.

    Linux (2.6.x+) gives you that needed protection as it have mandatory accesscontrol. Now access to files are no longer only depending on permissions to read or write, but also in what security domain processes are running and what type of object the process tries to access. It would also be possible to create security policys that took the security_class into account. E.g. differentiate between TCP sockets and raw sockets in the same security domain.

    This means that provided full security is turned on and a reasonable security policy is provided , most of the vulnerabilities in Linux we have heard
    so much about in Linux would not result in anything worse than a log entry if exploited.

    Naturally this security can be combined with old fashioned unix security trix like creating chroot sanboxes.

    All in all this makes Linux extremely unfriendly to viruses and other malware. Not only because of the mandatory access control system, but also because modern Linux kernels now makes it harder to initiate attacks through buffer overflows by similar techniques that we find in windows XP sp2

    From the comments to this article I see that too many people have read the Microsoft get the fact papers. They are facts, but unfortunately they are mostly facts of yesterday and Microsoft is banking on that most windows users will be too uniformed to relize that. They say things similar too:
    My brand new Mercedes is better than your 10 year old volkswagen. This of course probably true, but not entirly honest of the car salesman that is trying to sell a car to grandma who thinks both cars looks almost alike.

    Modern Linux is secure, there no doubt about that. Not only has it mandatory access control, you can even turn on multilevel security if you want some interesting screenshots for your own private spy movie.

    Speaking of spies. I rather have an OS where the security system is designed by NSA, opensourced for all to scrutinize, than an OS containg a file called nsakey where nobody but Microsoft knows what's in it. Read more about the Linux 2.6.x security system at http://www.nsa.gov/selinux

  13. My main beef with Windows is that not only do you have to pay an arm and a leg for it (even the OEM verison is overpriced), but you need to keep buying more software in order to make it more secure. Once you've shelled out on Windows, then you a Anonymous -- 01/07/04

    My main beef with Windows is that not only do you have to pay an arm and a leg for it (even the OEM verison is overpriced), but you need to keep buying more software in order to make it more secure.

    Once you've shelled out on Windows, then you at least need to spend even more on firewall and anti-virus software. Even then these are stop-gap measures and you can still get viruses. Then we have masses of adware and spyware crawling all over the machine... and with poor maintenance you're looking at an OS reinstall.

    With Linux, you can get a free firewall script straight off the internet for nothing, or pre-installed if the distro is designed like that. Windows has fairly poor file encryption, but with Linux (and some knowhow) it's not too painful to powerfully secure your data. Linux also has a plethora of free tools which can turn a Linux box into a router or VPN gateway as well... all of which you'd have to spend money on if you wanted the same functionality in Windows.

    Sure Linux has it's usability problems at the moment, but once they're ironed out Microsoft is in for some hard times on the desktop.

  14. "take a look at SQL Server" to see how 'innovative' microsoft is? What a hoot! The junk is about ten percent as effective as Oracle on the same hardware. Like all microsoft products, it is hampered by the 'microsoft philosophy', which assumes Anonymous -- 01/07/04

    "take a look at SQL Server" to see how 'innovative' microsoft is? What a hoot! The junk is about ten percent as effective as Oracle on the same hardware. Like all microsoft products, it is hampered by the 'microsoft philosophy', which assumes that you have unlimited resources and plan to replace your servers every six months (or whenver billg and his minions deign to provide you with an upgrade or patch package).

    Even MYSql or Postgres will outperform MS SQL on like hardware.

    Some people simply refuse to be swayed by the facts in the face of a 'higher truth'. Alas, more's the pity.

  15. Security through obscurity is a model that fails when the code is revealed. I wonder if it is any coincidence that we are getting numerous windows/IE attacks from Russia nearly a year after Microsoft's own servers were compromised and some [all?] of the Anonymous -- 02/07/04

    Security through obscurity is a model that fails when the code is revealed. I wonder if it is any coincidence that we are getting numerous windows/IE attacks from Russia nearly a year after Microsoft's own servers were compromised and some [all?] of the source code for Windows (2000, I believe) was stolen.

    Windows is insecure by design. First, to be able to do anything worthwhile you need to be logged in as Administrator (root, in UNIX/Linux talk), which gives you kernal mode privileges. So if anyone can get a vector [i.e. pathway] into your PC and into your memory space then they have a mechanism for doing whatever they want with your PC. Products like IE (Internet Exploder) and LookOut, as well as SQLServer and MediaPlayer, have - by Microsoft's own admission - all be welded into the OS. A flaw in any of these, such as a buffer overrun, provides a direct path into your OS. Buffer overruns can allow malicious code to run from the memory area that handles exceptions. This all happens at the root level - d'oh!

    Linux, on the other hand, was designed from the start to be a multi-user system. Users run applications in their own PROTECTED workspace and - unless they are dumb enough to permanently run as root [or unless they have *ugh* Lindows] - even if (and pretty big IF) hostile code does get into their PC they then they will only trash their area - not the system's. The browser, media players, etc. are not welded into the OS but run as applications.

    The big myth is that if Linux was as popular as windows it would have as many attacks. WRONG.

  16. Ah, yet *another* article depicting the end of Microsoft. OS/2 was supposed to be the death of MS. Macintosh was supposed to be the death of MS. The internet was supposed to be the death of MS. Now we have Linux. Dream on, people. Mic Anonymous -- 02/07/04

    Ah, yet *another* article depicting the end of Microsoft.

    OS/2 was supposed to be the death of MS. Macintosh was supposed to be the death of MS. The internet was supposed to be the death of MS. Now we have Linux.

    Dream on, people. Microsoft has a LONG history of responding to threats with amazing speed.

  17. "Dream on, people. Microsoft has a LONG history of responding to threats with amazing speed." Don't you mean money? They're hardly known for doing anything fast, other than FUDing of course. Anonymous -- 02/07/04

    "Dream on, people. Microsoft has a LONG history of responding to threats with amazing speed."

    Don't you mean money? They're hardly known for doing anything fast, other than FUDing of course.

  18. With regard to the security of Windows vs Linux, we continue to read the myth that Linux would be breached as often as Windows if only it were as commonplace as Windows. We also read the myth that Linux is just for geeks, indicating that you have to know Anonymous -- 02/07/04

    With regard to the security of Windows vs Linux, we continue to read the myth that Linux would be breached as often as Windows if only it were as commonplace as Windows. We also read the myth that Linux is just for geeks, indicating that you have to know a lot about computers to use Linux. Well, if Linux attacts only high powered geeks and they can't figure out how to breach it's security model then it must be an inherently strong system by design. Conversely, if Windows attracts the computer illiterate then it must be a pretty weak design if even they can figure out how to break it.

  19. The question is how much security do we really want? At some point a secure system becomes hard to admin. It doesn't matter what OS you use. Let me give you a Linux example: We have all the new SELinux mandatory security stuff turned on. T Anonymous -- 02/07/04

    The question is how much security do we really want? At some point a secure system becomes hard to admin. It doesn't matter what OS you use.

    Let me give you a Linux example:
    We have all the new SELinux mandatory security stuff turned on. The other day I needed to mail a configuration file to a co-worker.

    I could only read the file if I was logged in as root. So I logged in as root, opened my mail program and tried to send the file as an attachment. Nothing happened.

    I then realized that my mail program was not allowed to read the file (even if root running the mail program was). So I had to create a directory that I was able to access as a normal user, copy the file into it and change the unix permissions so that the file could be read by my standard userid and then start the mail progaram using my normal userid and attach the file.

    So I have a secure system thats great, but simple tasks may take about three times as long to perform, just because you need to take security into acount. It was much simpler when root was god.

  20. Linux is secure enough to control the combat systems of the USA's nuclear armed nuclear submarines and is being used in the core of the combat system upgrade for Australia's submarines. Looks like you can 'bet your life' on Linux security. Anonymous -- 02/07/04

    Linux is secure enough to control the combat systems of the USA's nuclear armed nuclear submarines and is being used in the core of the combat system upgrade for Australia's submarines. Looks like you can 'bet your life' on Linux security.

  21. 'Linux is secure enough to control the combat systems of the USA's nuclear armed nuclear submarines and is being used in the core of the combat system upgrade for Australia's submarines. Looks like you can 'bet your life' on Linux security.' So Anonymous -- 03/07/04

    'Linux is secure enough to control the combat systems of the USA's nuclear armed nuclear submarines and is being used in the core of the combat system upgrade for Australia's submarines. Looks like you can 'bet your life' on Linux security.'

    So which slashdot article did you pick this up from or did a 15 yo at the local Linux user group meeting tell you this one.

  22. 'What other open source operating systems that deliver vendor neutrality and industry standards compliance are available?' Try the BSD's. www.FreeBSD.org, www.NetBSD.org, and www.OpenBSD.org. Theres a few more in the BSD class but those three ar Anonymous -- 03/07/04

    'What other open source operating systems that deliver vendor neutrality and industry standards compliance are available?'

    Try the BSD's. www.FreeBSD.org, www.NetBSD.org, and www.OpenBSD.org. Theres a few more in the BSD class but those three are the most well known open source ones (and the ones that attract the most bile from the pro Linux anti MicroSoft crowd).

  23. What hat should I wear today, my Open Source Zealot or my Microsoft Evangelist, they are so hard to tell apart these days. Fact 1: Both Windows and Linux have bugs we don't yet know about that may compromise a system. Fact 2: Anonymous -- 03/07/04

    What hat should I wear today, my Open Source Zealot or my Microsoft Evangelist, they are so hard to tell apart these days.

    Fact 1:

    Both Windows and Linux have bugs we don't yet know about that may compromise a system.

    Fact 2:

    Linux is less likely to be affected by a bug because it comes firewalled up with little services actually running.

    Fact 3:

    Microsoft has not been too slow in releasing updates and when they are released they take too long for John Dialup to download.

    Fact 4:

    Actually, I put a challenge out there. Name the last virus released (that made use of a buffer overrun etc, not someone running a file) before a fix was available from Microsoft?

    It is quite easy to see what is happenning. A virus writer notes a recent flaw in windows or ie etc, by looking at the release notes for the patch. They then craft a virus to exploit that flaw, and release it. If this process is quicker than say a month, the majority of users will still not have patched their software.

    If automated updates were turned on by default, it would solve a LOT of problems.

  24. Combat systems on ships and submarines are actually not secure in the way commercial and business systems need to be, so the use of Linux there is irrelevant. Combat systems on warships are simply kept isolated from attackers. That's the protection, and i Anonymous -- 16/07/04

    Combat systems on ships and submarines are actually not secure in the way commercial and business systems need to be, so the use of Linux there is irrelevant. Combat systems on warships are simply kept isolated from attackers. That's the protection, and it works well.

    Secondly, I guess you've never been on an attack sub and had to reboot the combat system? It happens on Linux too.

  25. um, yeh... Anonymous -- 30/05/06

    doink! Microsoft has something like $40 billion in cash. They aren't going to roll over and play dead for you.

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