Citi prices Turnbull broadband plan at $17b

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GwyntaglawNovember 11th, 2011

Although Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull has been mum on definite costs, Citigroup Global Markets estimates that the coalition's broadband plan would set Australian taxpayers back approximately $16.7 billion, and could be completed by the end of 2018.

In August, Turnbull revealed that should the coalition form government, it would halt construction of the National Broadband Network (NBN) and conduct a cost-benefit analysis to determine the best broadband model for Australia. This would likely lead to a policy of fibre to the node (FTTN) in many areas; fibre to the home in Greenfields sites, utilising Telstra and Optus' hybrid fibre-coaxial cables; and subsidising the costs of broadband in rural and remote areas. Telstra's wholesale and retail arms would also be structurally separated, creating a new "Network Co" that would be the wholesaler for FTTN network.

Since the announcement, Turnbull has yet to disclose how much he expects this policy would cost by comparison to the Federal Government's $35.9 billion NBN project. However, international financial organisation Citigroup has this week released an equity analyst report on Telstra, assessing merits of the coalition policy and the likely financial impact on Telstra, and putting the cost at $16.7 billion.

The report, provided to ZDNet Australia, explains that based on the coalition estimation that the urban FTTN roll-out and HFC upgrades would cost $10 billion, the costs of deploying adequate broadband to regional areas would bring the total cost of the project to $16.7 billion, $19 billion less in capital expenditure than the NBN.

This was broken down into $6.1 billion for FTTN, $3.3 billion for fixed wireless in regional areas, $4.7 billion for greenfields FTTH and $2.7 billion in overheads. Following the six-month cost-benefit analysis after the 2013 election, Citigroup estimates that it would take two years to the end of 2015 for the coalition to renegotiate the definitive agreement with Telstra, negotiate a new separation deal and renegotiate the HFC deals with both Telstra and Optus. After this, it expects that the structural separation of Telstra would take three years, to the end of 2018.

While Turnbull could just contact NBN Co CEO Mike Quigley "and then just turn off the funding", there would be a number of hurdles to overcome to "shut down the NBN", Citigroup said, including:

  • Terminating contracts and facing the associated penalties
  • Selling the NBN fibre assets that are fragmented across the country
  • Cancelling planned roll-out locations and facing the potential backlash from residents in those areas
  • Re-writing Telstra structural separation legislation so that it is no longer tied to the NBN
  • Dealing with a hostile Senate controlled by the Greens.

The policy would also return the industry to tiered fixed-broadband pricing between regional areas and metropolitan areas of Australia, with companies favouring metro infrastructure roll-outs over regional roll-outs in order to make a return on investment. While Citi acknowledged that the coalition policy provided for subsidies for regional areas, it said it is concerned that the private sector would "continue to limit broadband development in regional areas".

The office for the shadow communications minister told ZDNet Australia that Citigroup had not consulted the coalition at all in the production of the report, and declined to comment.

Talkback

This is quite fascinating - a few quick thoughts at first glance (will read more closely):

- The Nationals aren't going to like this. The bush gets shafted, again.
- "It's Quick and Dirty" - this leaps out from the front page. Quite true, of course.
- The timeline is interesting: from the 2013 election until end of 2015, exactly NOTHING gets rolled out. There's six months allowed for a Cost Benefit Analysis, and two years to negotiate new terms with Telstra and Optus. Aside from being optimistic, that's over two years while no rollout takes place, all while people know they've had their NBN snatched away from under their noses.
- the FTTN and upgraded HFC rollout then takes place from beginning 2016 to end 2018. A total time saving of only two years - and that is based on the optimistic assumption that the Coalition can negotiate past the Greens and the ALP in the Senate.
- Here's the kicker in the fine print: 28% of premises continue to get only ADSL2+. No soup for you!

GwyntaglawGwyntaglaw November 11th, 2011
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The Citigroup report is not Coalition policy and is not the Coalition timetable of what will happen post 2013 election assuming a Coalition win and was not commissioned by the Coalition party nor did they consult with the Coalition on any aspect of the report.

Your 'quite fascinating' comments is nearly right but the correct term is fantasy.

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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Of course the Citigroup report is not "Coalition policy". If it were an official statement of policy, then it would not be independent and would be of no assistance at all in evaluating the foreseeable costs consequences of the policy.

I know Malcolm Turnbull has complained (via Twitter) that Citigroup did not consult with the Coalition - but that statement is misleading. What Citigroup most certainly did consult is the corpus of public statements and descriptions made by the Coalition (mostly by Turnbull himself). They are merely assessing the Coalition by its own statements.

The assumptions made by the report are clearly stated, and they are reasonable: such as the assumption that the Coalition will assume power in late 2013. No one can predict with certainty if that will be the case, but it accords with the views of many independent political analysts.

GwyntaglawGwyntaglaw November 13th, 2011
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The point is your individual interpretation of the report, which of course adds you own biased flavour as a long time pro-NBN and anti-Coalition one -eyed supporter.

As such your glib analysis headed a 'few quick thought at first glance' is as I stated pure non objective fantasy.

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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Gywns step by step analysis vs your pedantically ridiculous, baseless, NBN = end of the world stupidity...

Gee who should we listen to?

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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Well certainly not you, banned from so many websites you have to invent a new name every 24 hours.

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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My follow up thoughts were posted shortly after the above. I have read nothing in the report since then that contradicts what I have already written. Sorry to disappoint if you've been waiting for more!

GwyntaglawGwyntaglaw November 13th, 2011
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INCORRECT LIAR...

I am banned from DELIMITER ONLY...where I have done nothing worse than you (in fact I just told the truth, perhaps that's where I went wrong).

But you being the bad troll and in the minority you are protected there. Good for you!

Where as YOU are banned from Whirlpool of course... LOL!

Funny too, you who uses many names points the finger at me! hypocrite...

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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Couple more points:

- Figure 2 on page 6 shows the coverage broken down by technology choice (HFC, FTTN, Fixed wireless etc). The brownfields figure for FTTH is 0% covered, which is simply incorrect: according to the assumptions in the report (that the Coalition gains power in late 2013), the FTTH rollout will be already 9% complete by that date. This is acknowledged elsewhere, on page 8.
- The summary of implications (here: problems) for the industry on pages 9 & 10 covers some pretty significant territory. First up, on page 8, there is discussion of the likelihood of bringing back tiered wholesale pricing, which is disastrous for regional access.
- And the final kicker is the section on page 10 under the heading "Future-Proofing: Is it Fast Enough?" This deserves quoting at length.

"Unlike the NBN, the mix of access technologies used in the Coalition Policy makes the upgrade path difficult. In other words, if the Coalition Policy is implemented, it could simply delay an eventual national FTTH build. Note: FTTN is not an upgrade path for FTTP and the Coalition Policy still incurs $17bn of infrastructure spending."

That paragraph is an absolute killer.

GwyntaglawGwyntaglaw November 11th, 2011
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HFC is pretty much end-of-life. Its only brought in as an expediency to make the NBNCo numbers work. Including it will only create operating and upkeep costs.

FTTN will upgrade all the metro city networks to 12-24Mbps, Telstra estimated it at $4Bn, given the economy of scales of the known and previously deployed technology, that number would be under control.

IMO the bush should not get anything more than a copper line (no FTTN), and LTE/4G wireless. Any rational and knowledgable person would consider install fibre to these areas stupidity.

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 November 11th, 2011
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The "bush", if defined as broadacre properties and those premises outside the surburban density areas of a town, then LTE wireless (and satellite) is indeed what they will be getting under the existing NBN, and it is likely under the Coalition proposal.

Neither side of politics has proposed running fibre to these premises as standard.

GwyntaglawGwyntaglaw November 11th, 2011
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Regional AU should NOT get FTTP, its pointlessly stupid, and is a result of the hung parliament. After the next one, these three idiots will be gone, good riddance.

Anywhere that is behind a RIM, CMUX will either get Wireless or get an ISAM. There will be NO BROWNFIELDS FIBRE upgrades. There will also be NO FTTP to greenfields unless it is in the metro areas, with some exceptions.

doing this will save you 60% easily, that 60% is just the removal of 'stupidity.'

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 November 11th, 2011
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"Regional AU should NOT get FTTP, its pointlessly stupid, and is a result of the hung parliament."

False. Regional areas getting FTTH was planned long before the hung parliament result at the last election.



"After the next one, these three idiots will be gone, good riddance."

Do you hate democracy?



"that 60% is just the removal of 'stupidity.'"

False. You will always be 100% stupid.

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 11th, 2011
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"False. Regional areas getting FTTH was planned long before the hung parliament result at the last election."

It's just as easy to write "false" as for him to claim it's true - whilst neither of you give any supporting evidence.

"Do you hate democracy?"
That's a leading question. He said he'll be glad when "three idiots will be gone". Assuming he means three members of parliament will be voted out then he is exercising his democratic right to not like some candidates/currently serving members and to hope they don't get elected/reelected.

user000000000000000000000001 might as well ask a leading question back and write "Do you have a fascist ideology?".

"You will always be 100% stupid."
And you can't get much more presumptuous, ignorant and rude than that.

harlequinnharlequinn November 13th, 2011
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Oh come on, harlequinn. There is a wealth of "supporting evidence" to refute the claim that regional Australia is getting FTTP only as a result of the hung parliament. A simple search of media releases on the NBN Co site prior to the 2010 election will give many references. The plans to roll out fibre to 93% of residences (a number which necessarily includes regional Australia) was clear in the report for the year ending June 2010. Other public statements prior to the election are myriad.

To claim that there is no evidence when it is all around is wilful ignorance. There is none so blind as one who will not see.

GwyntaglawGwyntaglaw November 13th, 2011
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@Gwyntaglaw

"There is none so blind as one who will not see."

The blatant hypocrisy in that statement coming from you is one of the best examples of the art of hypocrisy you will see in a long time.

Priceless!

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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Go away child, the adults are corresponding...!

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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"To claim that there is no evidence when it is all around is wilful ignorance. There is none so blind as one who will not see."

You must be talking about yourself because I did not claim or infer there was no evidence.

I wrote "whilst neither of you give any supporting evidence".

The "neither of you" bit gives it away - I'm clearly saying that the two authors I'm referring to didn't give any evidence, and that's a fact.

The point is that it is their responsibility to support their claims if they want to be taken seriously.

harlequinnharlequinn November 14th, 2011
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Just to clarify:

"I did not claim or infer there was no evidence" meaning I didn't claim there was no evidence in existence in the world at large.

"whilst neither of you give any supporting evidence" meaning I do claim that they didn't supply any, which is an inference that there is evidence that can be supplied.

harlequinnharlequinn November 14th, 2011
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"It's just as easy to write "false" as for him to claim it's true - whilst neither of you give any supporting evidence."

My statement: "Regional areas getting FTTH was planned long before the hung parliament result at the last election." is true. Are you disputing this fact? If so you are flat out wrong. Saying "Regional areas getting FTTP as the result of the hung parliament" is wrong. It is a "False" statement.


"That's a leading question."

It's a valid question considering the history of his comments here.


"And you can't get much more presumptuous, ignorant and rude than that."

Just calling it how I see it, keep in mind you are trying to defend someone who called people in regional areas "idiots"

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 13th, 2011
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"Are you disputing this fact?"

I'm not disputing any claim. But that is just what it is - a claim - until you point to some documentation otherwise. I see to much in the way of anecdotes. Please point to a source.

"It's a valid question considering the history of his comments here."

It may be valid to you, but it is still not the best approach. You don't need to ask leading questions. Just state your mind e.g. "It is someone's democratic right to do such and such". You will get better results.

"Just calling it how I see it, keep in mind you are trying to defend someone who called people in regional areas "idiots""

Fair call. Perhaps we both need to remember to address the argument and not the man. He's just calling three people idiots and not referring to their origins. He shouldn't be doing that either - he becomes that which he accuses them of (and I do see the irony in me even writing that) :)

harlequinnharlequinn November 14th, 2011
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"until you point to some documentation otherwise."

Have you not been paying attention? These are well established facts. FTTH for 93% of Australia was announced LONG before the 2010 election result. http://www.zdnet.com.au/no-nbn-winner-govt-goes-ftth-alone-339295839.htm

"He's just calling three people idiots and not referring to their origins."

He's not just calling three people idiots. I'm not even talking about the three independents here. He said "There are just a lot of idiots in regional areas" Are you really going to defend that?

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 15th, 2011
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It's all about the National Party MPs and keeping them happy.

Think how many Liberal MPs have come out recently and said, in effect, "the NBN is terrible! And why isn't my electorate getting it quicker!"

And National MPs have historically had far fewer scruples about getting hold of juicy pork for the bush. It's practically their raison d'etre. No ideological hangups over market-driven purity, no sir.

More to the point, think how many rural and regional areas will have _partial_ rollouts by mid-2013. Coffs Harbour-Sawtell is getting it. Imagine if you're in Kempsey, or Port Macquarie, and are still waiting in 2013 only be told "sorry - third-rate internet for you, and you have to wait years even for that!" You look over at Coffs (and Armidale, and several others by then) and see them able to attract new business, cashed-up city dwellers moving in and all manner of investment, and you ask "what about me?"

What indeed! The hypocrisy of Coalition MPs, by then, will be overwhelming.

GwyntaglawGwyntaglaw November 11th, 2011
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Interesting interview on ABC Radio Local Goulburn-Murray the other morning. Cornwall in the UK started a major fibre rollout five years ago. Until then it had seen dying communities for the past twenty years. But as the fibre arrived, so have switched-on tree-changers tired on London but wanting modern conveniences like communications. They have started or reinvigorated countless Cornwall businesses and got these communities growing at 6% per annum! The same will happen across Australia, relieving congestion from our big cities and reinjecting some life into many tired towns.

umbriaumbria November 12th, 2011
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Well FTTH is not unique to Cornwall, Australia also has had FTTH before the NBN was even thought of, so all these estates with FTTH have businesses and communities are growing more than areas that do not?

Where does the 6% Cornwall growth figure come from and how do you determine it is directly attributable to the fibre rollout?

Do areas in the UK that also have percentage growth figures equal to or greater than Cornwall also have exclusive use FTTH that can attributable to that growth?

How do you explain other areas in the world that also have FTTH rollouts not having that growth figure?

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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Advocate, the ABC report on the Cornwell fibre rollout is found here:

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2011/11/11/3362634.htm

Your straw man questions are largely irrelevant - "How do you explain other areas in the world that also have FTTH rollouts not having that growth figure?" Gosh, I don't know; any range of factors? Differing economies? The weather? Anything and everything?

An "advocate" you may be, but more a ambulance-chasing shyster than a silk.

GwyntaglawGwyntaglaw November 13th, 2011
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Gwyn, advocate is alain the pedantic child/Telstra/Lib puppet from over yonder.

So if you expect rational and unbiased friendly correspondence, forget it.

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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"Your straw man questions are largely irrelevant"

Nice glib dismissal when it all gets too hard, by 'largely irrelevant' you mean stop asking awkward questions, it doesn't take much to machete pro-NBN argument BS like that, it is usually so full of holes it leaks like a sieve.

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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Speaking of questions, Forrest, will the NBN be a success?

So far you said it both will and won't...

Nothing like conviction, eh..LOL!

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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Still waiting for your answer Forrest... helllloooo!

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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"Note: FTTN is not an upgrade path for FTTP "

Of course that statement is absolutely FALSE , but then don't let the facts get in way of complete pro-NBN BS eh?

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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WRONG as usual...

The Panel of impartial experts, when evaluating RFP's...

(FTTN) network is:unlikely to provide an efficient upgrade path to fibre-to-the-premises (FTTP), because of the high costs of equipment associated with rolling out a FTTN network that would not be required for a FTTP network (i.e. FTTN is not a pre-requisite for the provision of FTTP)" {END}.

Did you get that, I'll repeat it for the illiterate.. "FTTN is not a pre-requisite for the provision of FTTP:.

So again, who do we believe a "panel of independent comms experts", or you an incessant dooms dayer, conservative puppet/Telstra fanboi... alain/advocate...!

Gee what a hard choice, ha...!

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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Of course you totally ignore the FTTN rollout overseas that were planned that if FFTH was needed the key word being 'if' the FTTN cabinets can be upgraded to FTTH if needed.

They obviously had their own -cough-cough- 'expert panel' advising them.

This statement :"Note: FTTN is not an upgrade path for FTTP "

is still incorrect, your usual frenetic twisting and turning to try and make it say:

"FTTN is not a pre-requisite for the provision of FTTP:"

is desperate stuff but nothing to do with that original statement.

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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So who do we believe the POE or alain the bad troll...

And you boy, ignore this..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTTH_by_country

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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Again the 'FTTN to FTTP' upgrade path argument is just another example of politicans scoring policy points based on something they no absolutely nothing about.

As someone with the industry expertise, I would say that the FTTN to FTTP upgrade path is a bogus argument, in fact, we do NOT REQUIRE FTTN to be a vessel to in future support an FTTP upgrade.

From a business and engineering point of view, the efficiency and market gains by deploying FTTN will in itself justify its existence and preference.

If you understand the difference in price tag, it will be obvious, an FTTN upgrade in the 5 cities, Telstra has estimated to be around $4Bn, but the same thing for fibre blow this figure right out of the water, lets say $25Bn.

The expenditure in FTTN is mainly from the NODES that will be replacing pillar and cabinets. While the major cost of FTTP will be replacing every strand of the existing fibre with fibre , all the way to the home phone socket.

That is to say, spending $4Bn on FTTN is to pay for FTTN itself, and that is the yield, and it is a good investment, and private consortiums have nominated themselves to do so.

To build a FTTP network on the other hand means that the majority of the build is to lay fibre everywhere, that in itself has little to do with FTTN.

Its essentially an apples and oranges scenario.

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 November 14th, 2011
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@user (who strangely said I rest my case 2 days ago ?) said...

"From a business and engineering point of view, the efficiency and market gains by deploying FTTN will in itself justify its existence and preference".

Once again I bring to your attention, not my counter view to your own unsubstantiated opinion, but actual analysis...

One from a panel of comms experts (please feel free to scoff as advocate, who simply has NFI did)...

http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/110014/Summary_observations_for_website.pdf

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/fibretokerb-nbn-could-cost-more-20111025-1mhr7.html

And just today...

http://delimiter.com.au/2011/11/14/citigroup-coalition-nbn-plan-difficult-to-achieve/

Now tell us again that you know better!

BetaBeta November 14th, 2011
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Notice that they expect ADSL2+ to make up 28% of the country?

This is not an FTTN network. It's 40% of an FTTN network. No wonder it only costs 17bn.
By that logic, if the NBN delivers 40% FTTH, it will only cost 15bn.

It can't even muster the coverage to label it "half **** ed

mynemyne November 11th, 2011
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Back of napkin calculation...

Telstra was going to do their metro FTTN upgrade and estimated it at $4Bn.
Fibre for the bush is only politically driven by the independents, so that will get canned, in addition, you will reduce 2.7Bn overhead to 0.7Bn. Leave in the wireless at $3.5Bn. And you get a sum of approx. $10Bn, which was the same as the initial Rudd NBN plan before its NBNCo.

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 November 11th, 2011
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"Telstra was going to do their metro FTTN upgrade and estimated it at $4Bn"

Ummm...the Telstra upgrade was to originally included $4.7 Billion of Government money, PLUS a lot more than that in Telstra's money. In exchange, Telstra was demanding a continued monopoly and to maintain wholesale and retail together.

The reason Rudd dropped the plan was that a continued Telstra monopoly would have cost the taxpayers many times what the NBN is going to cost to build.

viditorviditor November 11th, 2011
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So they built a NBN monopoly instead that is 100% funded by the taxpayer.

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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...and will repay itself by 2034 and can then be sold for $b's...

So what's the problem?

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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Because that is totally incorrect, other than that nothing

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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prove it...!

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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Telstra intended a 5 metro city FTTN upgrade, funded entire by Telstra with no public money or joint consortium, it wouldve been completely in house. And it estimated it at around 4-4.7Bn.

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 November 14th, 2011
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Yes but you conveniently overlook the fact that "Telstra were the one's who then pulled out of the upgrade"...

Because they wanted maximum ROI, minimum regulations and to renew their monopoly... even though the ACCC were willing to negotiate around their demands!

BetaBeta November 14th, 2011
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user-zeroes-1, "Fibre for the bush is only politically driven by the independents"?
Remember that the independents, and many Greens, got elected, and some Labor MPs unexpectedly survived, largely because of the coalition promise NOT to deliver fibre, and NOT to separate Telstra. We have a Green-Labor government today because Tony Abbott decided to play the fool six days before the 2010 poll and promise two tin cans and a piece of string when Labor had already started building backhaul and fibre to premises. Even though Labor was one the nose, even though it had botched some big spending programs, even though it hadn't (still hasn't) explained the benefits of FTTP to the public in words of two syllables, it survived certain annihilation and couldn't believe it's good fortune when the coalition stubbornly refused to concede fibre to secure the cross-bench members' support. Think about it - we have a Green-domiated parliament now because of that stubbornness from Tony Abbott. It could happen again in 2013 unless the coalition wakes up.

umbriaumbria November 12th, 2011
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cant wait for the next election, of course parliament cannot function when you have idiots like the greens and independents with so much control, and it is already taking its toll, great example is the stupidity of upping the broadband build from ~4Bn of govt money, and the same of private money, to a ludicrous 43Bn!!! ...please.

I rest my case.

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 November 12th, 2011
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does this $17 billion include payments to telstra for structurally seperating? if not, add another $11 billion at least, as their chairwoman said at the AGM. they are not going to do it for nothing and they have a bottomline now.

Correct me if wrong - the real cost of FTTN will be at least $28 billion.

litapajarlitapajar November 11th, 2011
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no it wouldnt include the 11Bn compensation, since FTTN means that telstra still owns its network, it would probably be modelled similiar to ULL system, but with a structurally separate telstra. It also means this network will only use fibre that it needs, in the vast majority of cases, all that is needed is to put an active box where a pillar or cabinet used to be. Its quick and cheap.

NBNCo proposes that the ALL the copper infrastructure be pulled out, and replaced with fibre, every copper connection or ever line to every premises needs to be replaced with fibre. Whats the figure $ figure? They dont even know, as no one has done this in the world at this level.

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 November 11th, 2011
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Obviously you haven't had any experience at all.

Laborworks is expensive, however, putting fibre in is more expensive than it is taking copper out. THEY KNOW THIS.

It's riduclless suggestion that just because you haven't seen the paperwork and the innerworkings of this project (NBN) that you're claiming it hasn't been done.

quiet frankly you are trolling.

Infact, you haven't even said anything about the topic of this article, and that's the Coalition's plans (other than the $11 billion compensation).

Anything to do with Telstra is going to be expensive, and that's why it's going to cost the Coalition Goverment over $17 billion to do this, instead, they could have just continued to rollout this network, and save a few political mistakes like they have done previously with $11 billion dollar hole, and $70 billion dollar hole etc.

ZeroNutZeroNut November 11th, 2011
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btw user, I'm very PANDA SAD FACE RIGHT NOW and the OBVIOUS REASONS of STUPIDITY.

ZeroNutZeroNut November 11th, 2011
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"Its quick and cheap."

You got that part right, quick and cheap it is, unfortunately it's not very useful and considering the very limited capabilities is not very good value for the money that would be spent.

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 11th, 2011
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no its quick and cheap because this technology has been rolled out since the 90s and has evolved from rims to cmux, to isams - and it will continue to evolve.

It is because it does not require every single copper line to every single house to be pulled out and replaced, and every single modem replaced in addition to a large power back up unit and a router as well.

The existing FTTN technology allows for VDSL2, ADSL2+, POTS and legacy technologies. This is why the cost is controlled because the technology has evolved and telcos have a lot of experience rolling out this techonology.

Compared this to brownfield copper to fibre swap over, and NBNCo having not a clue how to do it, and yeah, as for Telstra, well its not their problem as long as they get compensated. Chances of failure when you allow politicians and monkeys to make decisions, failure.

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 November 12th, 2011
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"this technology has been rolled out since the 90s"

The year 2011 not the 90s. Look at a calendar dude.




"and it will continue to evolve."

Into FTTH.




"It is because it does not require every single copper line to every single house to be pulled out and replaced"

Booo hoooo hooo, the poor copper :-(
(It's called progress dummy)




"and every single modem replaced in addition to a large power back up unit and a router as well."

You clearly don’t have a clue what you are talking about here.




"telcos have a lot of experience rolling out this techonology."

Exactly what makes you think rolling out a FTTH network is exponentially harder than a FTTN network? This stuff isn’t rocket science. It's laying cables and creating a data transfer network. A chimp could do it.

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 12th, 2011
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I really hope the Govt can successfully highlight what a joke this proposal is and how the NBN is clearly the smart choice and ultimately the *cheapest* & *best* option....

Australia needs to wake up OR there is a very real chance we will all be paying for this over-the-top politicking of a critical piece of our future national communications infrastructure!

C'mon Govt....get your butts into gear....only two years out...

FUDbusterFUDbuster November 11th, 2011
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As someone who lives in a regional centre, and deals with schools and communities in remote regional areas, I can assure you that high-speed broadband is as much needed here as it is in metro areas. It allows people in communities where the next town is hundreds of kilometers away to communicate and commerce with others as if they were next door.

To rob regional areas of such an opportunity would be a huge shame, and if anything, I would hope that the build out to these areas is expanded!

pgodwinpgodwin November 11th, 2011
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pgodwin

It's going to be country/rural seats that in large part decide whether the NBN does get rolled out. As much as they may be denigrated for selling out by their own electorates, the main reason Oakshot and Windsor offered their in principal support to Labor rather than Lib/Nat was the NBN. Specifically that their rural areas get it, and get it before the metro areas. If they get turfed out before the NBN becomes a reality and the Nationals who have achieved nothing put back in, the next time i hear someone from their electorates whinge about infrastructure. Well i won't, 'cause they won't deserve my sympathy or the effort of me listening.

WDiscoWDisco November 11th, 2011
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@pgodwin, it would be a lot more than a huge shame to take the National out of NBN as you say, and deprive most of the country of future reasonable access.

In fact it would be an act of both criminal and commercial negligence and ignorance. Perhaps we need to point out to certain people that stupidity is no defense?

socratessocrates November 11th, 2011
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Did the Citibank report include estimates of download/upload speed by geographical coverage (or zone) of the Turnbull version? And from that, a cost/benefit comparison of the Turnbull and NBN models?

Bob_WABob_WA November 11th, 2011
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So we spend $17 billion, and the public have no ownership at the end? Or we could spend nothing (paid for by users) and have the NBN built and owned by us. Hard decision...

And.. will telstra be cheaper then the NBN plans we are already seeing?

Want to buy a bridge?

Paul KPaul K November 11th, 2011
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No one seems to realize the obvious truth. If/when the Libs get to power in 2013 there will be no further work the nations infrastructure bar connecting a few areas to ADSL2+. MT will announce that there is no money in the budget for FTTN and the Cost of the CBA (Why has no one asked MT what it will cost to do a CBA, I've read nothing about the costs involved) will be so high that they will have wasted any money that could have been put to better purposes such as FTTP or health or roads or rail.

Abbot is a technotard and is incapable of negotiating with Telstra for separation and MT will never convince Telstra to separate because he is out of his depth as communications minister. Don't kid yourself people, THE LIBS DID NOTHING FOR TELECOMMUNICATIONS FOR THE 12 YEARS BEFORE THEY GOT BOOTED, AND WHEN/IF THEY RETURN TO POWER IN 2013 THEY'LL CONTINUE TO DO NOTHING.
Mark my words!

So the way I see it,
Vote Labor = improved telecommunications
Vote Liberal = Same old Same old.

ravstaravsta November 11th, 2011
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this may surprise a lot of people but 'THERE IS NO PROBLEM'.

The need for NBN is political. If you live in the cities you have a large choice of providers.

There are just a lot of idiots in regional areas who have bad service from Telstra, and the only hope in hell they have of getting a decent connection is from NBNCo, and waste a hell of a lot of money on a white elephant.

The Opel plan was more than adequate. But give these regional and rural a-holes wireless and stop this NBN stupidity and throwing money down the toilet.

End of story.

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 November 12th, 2011
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"this may surprise a lot of people but 'THERE IS NO PROBLEM'. "

False. There is a problem but unfortunately you can’t see it due to your clear political bias.




"The need for NBN is political."

False. The need for the NBN is not political. It is about the need to upgrade our communications infrastructure.




"If you live in the cities you have a large choice of providers. "

Which of these providers can provide me with a 100/40mbps connection?





"The Opel plan was more than adequate."

False. The OPEL plan was just wireless towers and a few more ASDL2+ DSLAMS no different to what we have now. This was a band aid solution.





"throwing money down the toilet."

Throwing money down the toilet would be the OPEL plan or a substandard FTTN patchwork.

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 12th, 2011
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People dont want 100Mbps.

For example they are happy with ADSL2+ and about 200Gigs of data.
There are providers that offer UNLIMITED data for $60-$80/m.

With FTTN the value would greatly improve. What people do want are lower prices. FTTN will give that and higher and uniform speeds.

We have a pretty good model today, it could be better, but what NBN is doing is a big step backwards and creating a white elephant, then again, what do you expect when it driven by politicians.

The issue that broadband is a MAJOR problem is greatly exaggerated by various politicians for their own gain. The problem that I most acknowledge is that with Telstra and getting a working model when it upgrades its network to FTTN.

This entire NBN affair has been an inconvenient timewasting sidetrack created by politicians, not to add wasting of over $1Bn in taxpayer money.

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 November 14th, 2011
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"People dont want 100Mbps."

Still living under that rock I see.

"For example they are happy with ADSL2+ and about 200Gigs of data."

Great. Those people can get a 12/1mbps plan on the NBN.


"With FTTN the value would greatly improve."

No it wont. You'll be paying the same price you pay now for an inferior service.

"not to add wasting of over $1Bn in taxpayer money."

LOL. Let me get this straight. You consider anything over $1 billion spent on communication infrastructure to be a waste but then go on to suggest that we should build a FTTN patchwork that will have to be upgraded at a later date that will cost even more to be a viable solution?

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 15th, 2011
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I'll ask yet again...

Is there anyone out there who can mount a "rational" campaign against the NBN?

I.e. one which does NOT display obvious political agendas/mischievousness/ties?

For anyone to claim (with a straight/serious face) the NBN, which will supply all Aussies with improved comms, to be more political motivated than those willing to stop/sabotage the NBN (at all costs) and ergo stop Aussies from having improved comms, out of their own sheer ideological selfishness, is rank stupidity, imo...!

BetaBeta November 14th, 2011
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We live "near" a town of about 600 people, about 75 minutes from Melbourne on a major highway and rail route. The town has 2 primary schools, and there are 3 more schools within a 10 minute radius.

There is NO copper broadband. Not even dial-up as line noise renders it unusable. ADSL, ADSL2 & ADSL2+ are a dream. Cable/fibre? Not here. Digital TV? Tough bikkies.

We have Telstra NextG/3G and Optus on a nearby hill (which shades us from Digital TV). Upload/download varies from 5.49/0.89Mb to 0.12/0.05, depending on whether neighbours are streaming movies, etc.

Frankly, we'd kill for ADSL2+ - never mind FTTN.

LarrySLarryS November 11th, 2011
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LarryS, without knowing which town, it is plain that your situation would not substantially change with the Turnbull model, for instance you would certainly not get ADSL/FTTN! But under the NBN, by its 2015 completion, the LTE wireless rollout will see you with enough wireless provisioning to guarantee you to get 12 Mbps to yourself. This is what ADSL delivers at 1 km range from the exchange. The coalition needs to wake up and simpy steal the NBN because it is good policy, sensibly funded, and should have bipartisan support for the sake of the nation.

umbriaumbria November 12th, 2011
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"The coalition needs to wake up and simpy steal the NBN because it is good policy, sensibly funded, and should have bipartisan support for the sake of the nation."

But then again the Coalition could see at a total taxpayer rip off which it is, and offers nothing to the nation other than a massive tax burden loaded onto future generations for decades.

Couple that with the Australia unique situation where the existing working infrastructure has to be shut down to ensure residences are forced to use the NBN FTTH.

Selling that to the electorate as points before the 2013 election should be a shoe-in.

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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LOL...

There, that is the answer such stupidity deserves...!

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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Cold under that bridge was it?

LOL

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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FTTN is not a pre-requisite for the provision of FTTP

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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Anyway... why don't you call or RLM to save you here too..

Either that or finally grow some... better call RLM!

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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"But then again the Coalition could see at a total taxpayer rip off which it is, and offers nothing to the nation other than a massive tax burden loaded onto future generations for decades."

Since when has the coalition been worried about the future generations?

BordZBordZ November 14th, 2011
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What is the point of FTTN when the copper network is in need of a major over haul anyway; we have had our service interrupted 5 times in 3 years and every time they just do another patch job. If they tried to do a FTTN they would still need to replace the copper to the residents house that would significantly add more to the cost & that is why Telstra has not bothered to over haul it’s network they believe they can rely on mobile & Wireless networks to keep them going. The benefits of the NBN are there their just not obvious the majority of the public.

freakinacagefreakinacage November 12th, 2011
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We must not forget....$17bn is a conservative estimate anywayz....

The libs reckon Telstra and Optus are just gonna give up their assets and say "here you go"!!!

No chance.....add another $11-14bn to get the copper off Telstra and another $4-5 for Optus....

That is looking mighty close in cost to the Govt's plan for FTTH......which is best ppl's?

Labour Govt's FTTH NBN.......$36bn.....self-funding..eventual cost $0...+potential profit$$$
latest tech.....clear, and relatively easy upgrade path that is *very* cost effective.
vs...
Lib Noalition FTTN..WANK......$17bn.....$$$pvte subsidies$$$.....High Retail$$$ + Old Tech...not easily upgradeable...in fact, a freaking expensive nightmare!!!
or...
Lib Noalition FTTN..TBN.........$35bn.....$susidies$....$High Retail$ + Old Tech.... not easily upgradeable...in fact, a freaking expensive nightmare!!!

+ remember....as ppl have been saying again and again...see earlier posts....Upgrading from FTTN to FTTH is not simple or cheap....it is freaking expensive.

This Noalition govt is a complete joke.....can we at least get some serious options????

No???? I didn't think so.

Malcolm Turnbull....you sir are a disgrace.

FUDbusterFUDbuster November 12th, 2011
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bullshit.

$17 is TOO MUCH.

take out all the FTTP crap, and the figure drops significanlty. Add FTTP to anything and the number goes to the moon, see the pattern here?

In Rudd's original NBN plan, the govt would put in around $4Bn, and $4bn from private sector.

That should be less than $10Bn. But since Liberal must respond to Labors "fibre" bullshit plan, it has to attach another $7Bn of addition costs.

Let a private company do it all, it would be easily less than $10bn.

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 November 12th, 2011
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Let private companies do it all... what like they have done so far...ROFL.

It's easy to say...!

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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can someone tell me how will telstra agree to structurally seperate without any compensation? whats the incentive for it do so? at the moment, they have $11 billion and faced the threat of losing 4G spectrum etc.
they don't need govt money to build FTTN, they can do it themselves. without compendation, they don't have to structurally seperate, unless there is another threat from Malcolm?

litapajarlitapajar November 12th, 2011
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To answer your question litapajar...

The same way, wireless will make fibre obsolete, the hurting tax payer will fund a white elephant and FTTN is the way of the future...

I.e. SFA chance...

Unless of course, all the TLS shareholders who love the opposition, have their property seized by the opposition... wouldn't that be ironic!

BetaBeta November 12th, 2011
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Does the report mention that a FTTN network in 2018 is kinda like taking two steps forward and three steps backwards?

The absolute speeds should be faster... but relative to demand the speeds will actually be slower!

[Assumes 6mbps speeds today, 6 years to complete, 50Mbps average obtainable speeds, 50% demand increase year on year]

NPSF3000NPSF3000 November 12th, 2011
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[Assumes 6mbps speeds today, 6 years to complete, 50Mbps average obtainable speeds, 50% demand increase year on year]

So you made that all up, what did you use dice or a random number generator?

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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Indeed, and let's not forget too...

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/fibretokerb-nbn-could-cost-more-20111025-1mhr7.html

And especially here (as all the work has already been done for them by the previous "impartial" panel of comms experts - re RFP's)...

http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/110014/Summary_observations_for_website.pdf

The pertinent clause in regards to future needs/proofing...

"The Proposals have also demonstrated that rolling out a single fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) network is:
␣ unlikely to provide an efficient upgrade path to fibre-to-the-premises (FTTP), because of the high costs of equipment associated with rolling out a FTTN network that would not be required for a FTTP network (i.e. FTTN is not a pre-requisite for the provision of FTTP); and
␣ likely to require exclusive or near-exclusive access to Telstra’s existing copper sub-loop customer access network (CAN), the so called ‘last mile’, thereby confirming that strong equivalence of access arrangements would be essential. As well, providing such access to a party other than Telstra runs a risk of liability to pay compensation to Telstra. The Proposals have this risk remaining with the Commonwealth but they have not addressed the potential cost to the Commonwealth of any such compensation. In any event, the Panel considers that no Proponent could accept the cost risk and continue to have a viable business case. {END}.

But yet if the opposition gain power that's exactly what we will get. And why will we get this substandard hodge-podge? Because of "blind political ideology/stupidity/stubborness"...!

BetaBeta November 12th, 2011
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Will someone with Tony Abbott's ear get the message to him that the coalition needs to urgently adopt the NBN as it's policy? If he does so, then he deprives Labor of its only remaining popular policy and guarantees himself electoral success. If he does not, then coalition voters, especially the critical regional seats, must again choose between getting decent broadband at last, or voting for the coalition, and as in 2010 many will reluctantly vote Labor despite it being badly on the nose.

Malcolm Turnbull would spend $17 billion on HFC and ADSL (because FTTN is still only copper ADSL delivered from electrified street cabinets that are fed with fibre).

How much would Malsom Turnbull then spend on satellite services and backhaul upgrades? Maybe $10 billion? Well, that totals $27 billion, which is exactly the public funding needed for the NBN. The difference is then, that the NBN recovers its construction cost back to the public purse and then continues to be a cash cow for the government in perpetuity.

So unless the LIberals catch up soon to be credible, in 2013 we will be faced with choosing universal fibre by 2021 that will last half a century with only switch upgrades, or universal ADSL and wireless by 2018 that will need to be upgraded to fibre. No contest, is it?

umbriaumbria November 12th, 2011
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"in 2013 we will be faced with choosing universal fibre by 2021 that will last half a century with only switch upgrades, or universal ADSL and wireless by 2018 that will need to be upgraded to fibre. No contest, is it?"

First of all FTTN is not ADSL, and why will it needed to be upgraded to all fibre, what applications that residences will demand can only be run on FTTH?

In existing Greenfield FTTH areas in Australia, and there are plenty of them with decades of use of FTTH, what applications do these estates run that residences that have ADSL2+ or HFC cannot run?

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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"In existing Greenfield FTTH areas in Australia"

Explain why they are using fibre at all then. You say there are no applications that cant be done on ADSL2+ or HFC so why not use copper just like everywhere else?

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 13th, 2011
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So you don't know what applications that Greenfield FTTH estates use that no one else that has ADSL2+ and HFC can use either?

Why do we need FTTH again?

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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IS that the HF YOU say is and isn't redundant...LOL!

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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"Why do we need FTTH again?"

Good question. I'm asking you. Why do Greenfields need FTTH?

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 13th, 2011
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I hate both of the plans. They need to be straight forward and they need to stop messing around. Why not use the telstra backbone to build from and lay Fibre down right next to it/replace it. I cant believe they also want to charge us for the speed of internet. America are already rolling out a 1Gbps network to houses. We are only getting 1/10th of that at full price.

dassab545dassab545 November 12th, 2011
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The likely scenario will be

1- Liberals win the next election and cancel NBN
2- They will throw out any broadband (thorn in their side) policies
3- They will resume the pre-rudd **** for-tat with Telstra

Back to the future 2007.

If you understand that there is no real need for a National Broadband Network, and that this is entirely motivated by politican gain, you will see that the long standing battle between Telstra and the Govt , and essentially the failure of regulation of Telecoms in AU, will continue indefinitely - there is no end-date or end-game. This is simple the nature of the beast, it is a game with two very big players (Telstra / Govt ) with lots of leverage and money. Its a stalemate.

What would probably happen is that the Liberals will go back to their OPEL plan. Telstra would resume its push to upgrade its network to FTTN for cities only, at a cost of around $4bn, but if the ACCC agrees to certain terms. So its just back to Sol Trujillo days.

user000000000000000000000001user000000000000000000000001 November 12th, 2011
Report offensive content Reply (+1) (-49)

"Back to the future 2007."

You think this is a good thing?


"If you understand that there is no real need for a National Broadband Network"

Except there is and you are simply unaware... most likely you have been living under a rock I assume…



"and that this is entirely motivated by politican gain"

False. The NBN only became political after the last election.



"What would probably happen is that the Liberals will go back to their OPEL plan."

I doubt even the liberal party are that stupid. We'll have to assume now that you haven’t been following this NBN debate for very long. Perhaps you should do a bit of research and reading before you comment again.

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 12th, 2011
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"America are already rolling out a 1Gbps network to houses. "

This is simply not true. Google and a few other telcos are rolling out 1gbps in a few select areas but no one has immediate plans to do a nation wide network and certainly not the 93% build we are in the process of rolling out. In a few years time we will have the edge and Americans will be looking at us with envy. The network will be fully capable of 1gbps, higher than 100/40mbps plans will be available at a later date.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/02/your-new-isp-google-launches-1gbps-fiber-to-the-home-trial.ars

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 12th, 2011
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Yes the USA looks at us bemused as we are the only country in the world that requires all existing fixed line infrastructure to be shut down billions given to the owners so that residences are forced to use it.

Then we can 'pretend' that we need it, see everyone is using it!

LOL

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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Shutting down "all existing fixed line infrastructure" is not required. Keeping it running when it is redundant is pointless and a waste of money. There is a difference. Work it out. No one is forced to use it either, you can opt for a wireless provider if you like.

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 13th, 2011
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Hey HC...

Old alain is getting game venturing away from 100% protection elsewhere...

But look he has done it!!! He normally contradicts himself over a week or two different threads (or at least two different comments).

But here is what he said in two chronological paragraphs contained within one comment... classic (HFC is/isn't redundant... ROFLMFAO)... here enjoy!

...consumers today do not use the fastest speeds available to them, who would have thought when HFC was rolled out all those years in 1994 most residences it passes even in 2011 don’t want it, I guess you don’t want to go there as a analogy with the NBN.

I also like the argument that HFC is ‘redundant’, it’s redundant because Conroy and the NBN Co want the customer base to help justify the NBN FTTH’s reason for being.

LOL

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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Of course leaving existing infrastructure up whilst rolling out FTTH is to much of a risk so you need to remove that choice, when there is choice of high speed BB like in Brunswick in Victoria you can hear the YAWN of indifference loud and clear.

Never mind Brunswick will be forced to embrace the new exciting world of FTTH when the HFC BB and copper is switched off.

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
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Forced... what absolute rot...

It is known as progress.

So if we want to drive, we are forced to drive on bitumen (yes you want your dirt back) how dare they force us...

Previously we were forced to use copper for our phones/internet (yes you want your cans and/or pigeons) OMG, how could they force us.

Shall I keep ridiculing your twisted and desperate idiot logic...?

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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"Never mind Brunswick will be forced to embrace the new exciting world of FTTH when the HFC BB and copper is switched off."

Good. Force them. HFC & copper are redundant. Switch them off for the greater good. Your emotional attachment to them is irrelevant.

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 13th, 2011
Report offensive content Reply (+37) (-2)

It's not redundant because you say it is.

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
Report offensive content Reply (+1) (-54)

No it's redundant because you say it is..

But then you say it isn't redundant too.

Oh stop it, my sides are splitting at your idiocy!

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
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"It's not redundant because you say it is."

That’s right they are not redundant because I say they are. They are redundant because they are incapable of the high speeds fibre are capable of delivering now and in the future.

Hubert CumberdaleHubert Cumberdale November 13th, 2011
Report offensive content Reply (+30) (-2)

If Rudd and Conroy had not been so stupid to insist on FTTH instead of the much more rational and fast to rollout FTTN/C they could have had millions of happy NBN customers on 50-100Mbps via FTTN/C (like Germany, NZ, UK now have) We'd all be a lot happier and have spent (borrowed) a lot less money.

With FTTN/C being cheaper and quicker to rollout it has a much higher ROI and businesses are much more interested in investing which means the tax payer pays less and takes on lower risk that the extra stupid "build fiber to every suburban home" concept of the highly, retardedly ambitious Spinister Conroy.

golfmangolfman November 12th, 2011
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Yes, yes, thanks for coming, but we have heard from those like you before...

So again for all you Lib puppets...

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/fibretokerb-nbn-could-cost-more-20111025-1mhr7.html

http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/110014/Summary_observations_for_website.pdf

BetaBeta November 12th, 2011
Report offensive content Reply (+35) (-3)

Simply providing two URL links over and over as proof that nulls out all Coalition policy no matter what is easy posting but in reality why the electorate will vote in 2013 and determine that they may have had enough off Gillard and Labor and Greens/Independents influence is more complex.

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
Report offensive content Reply (+2) (-48)

Oh hi alain, fancy you venturing away from your protected species status over with your mate...!

Come to answer all those unanswered questions have you precious..."good"...!

But to address your biased stupidity above ... it's 2 more URL's than you have.

But please keep those fingers crossed that 2013 will bring you your much desired back to the 50's celebrations!

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
Report offensive content Reply (+31) (-2)

So we have the socialist bank of North America (one of the one's that went belly up and had to big given a huge a handout as a too big to fail) advising the Libs on finance. I'm sure their advice is real shrude.

Kevin CobleyKevin Cobley November 13th, 2011
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No they are not advising the Libs on finance at all.

"The office for the shadow communications minister told ZDNet Australia that Citigroup had not consulted the coalition at all in the production of the report,"

advocateadvocate November 13th, 2011
Report offensive content Reply (+2) (-44)

Oh so this article is completely wrong then... ?

BetaBeta November 13th, 2011
Report offensive content Reply (+35) (-2)

There are so much people completely miss in this debate. NBN Co is in effect building a "last mile" network. Ignoring arguments around the benefits short or long term of a technology choice the first question that SHOULD have been asked is what do we need to do to improve speed, competition and price (resultant of competition) in poorly service areas. Obviously these regional areas and certain (not all) areas of the cities are the one impacted.

I'll tell you why these areas do not see cheap and fast(ish) broadband.

1) Backhaul is expensive!! Specially from regional areas. So competitive access provider do not enter certain areas/markets.
2) Access to Telstra exchanges is less then guaranteed.. The fact is many exchanges have competitors completely locked out.

As you can issue #1 is effectively not dealt with under the NBN. This means regional areas are still subject to higher retail pricing (as costs are higher) then to capital cities.

Guess what? Lib/Nat policy DID include a backhaul component. In fact the very first roll out was to build out a backhaul network so that competitors can enter regional markets and provide alternative access networks/providers. Then you'll see $29.99 ADSL2+ (maybe even unlimited) in these areas. Was this ever mentioned?

Nor is often mentioned that the debate does not have to be NBN vs nothing. NBN Co and other technologist can and should make appropriate choices instead of politicians choosing technology. Has anyone heard that you can do 100Mbps (1Gbps future) over 200m of cat 3 copper? Of course non of these technologies were even looked at. Because pollies choose the technology (FTTH and GPON followed) in the NBN and locked out all other access competitors.

The fact is this typical of what I have seen from this federal govenment. They have lofty ideas often with much merit. The problem starts when they try implement or turn these ideas into policy and reality. That is where I have a problem. I always thought that if we were going to spend so much of our money on an FTTH network why wouldn't we spend a little more for active ethernet? Making it a truly future proo. I am still tossing up whether I would even support that, since I am sure the money can be spent better elsewhere.

wizidwizid November 14th, 2011
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Err, the NBN is actually building the back haul for regional communities.

BordZBordZ November 14th, 2011
Report offensive content Reply (+42) (-1)

Indeed BordZ...

Here's some info to enlighten for wizid... from the NBN implementation study...

http://www.dbcde.gov.au/broadband/national_broadband_network/national_broadband_network_implementation_study

http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/127557/Chapter_6_-_Ensuring_ubiquitous_backhaul_availability_-_NBN_Implementation_Study_report.pdf

BetaBeta November 14th, 2011
Report offensive content Reply (+37) (-1)
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by http://t.co/vmlLt4bh: SA Health's journey to e-health: Implementing e-health services for an entire state is a... http://t.co/NVrBd9c5

Facebook investor to sue Nasdaq over alleged bungled orders: http://t.co/XGRsNzA4 ^LH

Combining @Ariba's network & @SAP's applications - "SAP eyes cloud super network with Ariba buy" http://t.co/jeMWEKpB

SA Health's journey to e-health: Implementing e-health services for an entire state is a daunting task, but, as ... http://t.co/Vwchau6N

RT @JamesVickery: Google warns users of DNSChanger malware http://t.co/DsHUnC5r

Upskill. RT @zdnetaustralia Job vacancies are down 22 per cent on a year ago. So what are IT professionals to do? http://t.co/PrFEBfqS ^ST

Google warns users of DNSChanger malware http://t.co/DsHUnC5r

National Botnet Network coming: Earthwave http://t.co/t49r3IV0

Surely IT is more than just a game? http://t.co/WvSk0C0N

RT @JLLLOW: Revolution. RT @zdnetaustralia: Job vacancies are down 22 per cent on a year ago. So what are IT professionals to do? http://t.co/rdjqdACC

Revolution. RT @zdnetaustralia: Job vacancies are down 22 per cent on a year ago. So what are IT professionals to do? http://t.co/rdjqdACC

Google has joined in on the chorus of organisations warning users about DNSChanger infections http://t.co/ysaIHiuG ^ML

Akku Asus A32-K72 Original,Kompatibler Ersatz akku für Li-ion Asus A32-K72 Original Laptop Akkus Asus A32-K72 Original,A32-K72 Original...

4 hours ago by akkuakku on HP Compaq 6730b

It is great to see the NSW government taking this step, however there's plenty of home-grown talent loeaving or being rediverted due to l...

4 hours ago by Aceyducey on NSW Govt appoints Silicon Valley champion

Job vacancies are down 22 per cent on a year ago. So what are IT professionals to do? http://t.co/EpY9YiFg ^ST

by http://t.co/vmlLt4bh: JobWatch: where the jobs are: The latest analysis on online job ads from the Department ... http://t.co/nh1wg7Y6

@chieftech @zdnetaustralia that's a fair call. Still an area that requires consideration work. BYOD = BYOViruses & Malware :)

JobWatch: where the jobs are http://t.co/Lqo8BNVT

EMC hones focus on hybrid cloud big data Hardware News ZDNet Australia: EMC has launched 42 prod... http://t.co/uR56HXDz #bigdata #blogs

Are specific gaming development degrees bollocks? http://t.co/z2zbaWvT ^ST

#NSW Govt announces shopfront in Silicon Valley + 7 consortia to dev #mobile for public sector http://t.co/GPrIXH4F via @johnW3LLS #govcamp

JobWatch: where the jobs are: The latest analysis on online job ads from the Department of Education, Employment... http://t.co/qJce42h2

RT @johnW3LLS: #NSW Govt announces shopfront in Silicon Valley + 7 consortia to dev #mobile for public sector http://t.co/JDSdSxWu #gov2au

RT @zdnetaustralia: Android fragmentation threw a spanner into Victorian Health's app strategy: http://t.co/4pkmnkMB ^LH

What Microsoft won't tell you about Windows 7 licensing http://t.co/Y2e6sXdI #Win7

#Android fragmentation steers Vic Health - @ZDNet Australia : http://t.co/chrmWl7B

RT @zdnetaustralia: Android fragmentation threw a spanner into Victorian Health's app strategy: http://t.co/4pkmnkMB ^LH

Android fragmentation steers Vic Health - ZDNet Australia: Android fragmentation steers Vic Healt... http://t.co/VTbMBy5A #android #news

by http://t.co/vmlLt4bh: Android fragmentation steers Vic Health: Fragmentation issues in Android were a key conc... http://t.co/wOmHdAav

Android fragmentation steers Vic Health http://t.co/CqTImM5l

Android fragmentation steers Vic Health - ZDNet Australia: Android fragmentation steers Vic... http://t.co/3ssDp1SW http://t.co/KpTZdvuO

Android fragmentation steers Vic Health: Fragmentation issues in Android were a key concern for the Victorian De... http://t.co/NnjPEqSu

Android fragmentation steers Vic Health http://t.co/jcB7UGer

Chrome beats Internet Explorer in global Web browser race | ZDNet http://t.co/7G7xMfJj

Android fragmentation steers Vic Health: Fragmentation issues in Android were a key concern for the Victorian De... http://t.co/HLdurfS5

Mining the social data stream for deeper customer insight | via @ZDNet http://t.co/x4xouPQh)

Android fragmentation steers Vic Health http://t.co/A6SJkfJw

But this is the thing. There are still plenty of good-quality graduates whose skills can raise seasoned professional eyebrows... if they ...

6 hours ago by techkid on Skills shortage: companies being too picky?

I wouldn't have called Vista cheesy. Its GUI was pretty slick (and indeed handed on to Windows 7). It was, however, poorly implemented, h...

6 hours ago by techkid on Microsoft admits Vista was 'cheesy'

Thanks Nelson, it should be right now.

-Michael.

6 hours ago by Mukimu on Ausgrid network to talk back to operators

I guess the mouse was a necessary evil at the time. I mean, yes, keyboard shortcuts in the right hands are faster than any mouse action (...

7 hours ago by techkid on Microsoft admits Vista was 'cheesy'

fyi google may always lie

7 hours ago by rt luvs youh on Google shows we're killing our language

they probaly always lie about in4mation bout people

7 hours ago by rt luvs youh on Google shows we're killing our language

$6.7million, now we know the price to the tax payer of a government IT project clean up. You've got to ask the question don't you: why o...

8 hours ago by Takenforgranted on Vic scraps HealthSMART system

why some mp4 files with higher frame width can not be played in my 3m mp180??

8 hours ago by cyrusmann_ymail.com on 3M MP180 Pocket Projector

Unfortunately there is NO such place as Nelson's Bay. It's Nelson Bay!! Probably not your fault for the error, as your Media Release prob...

8 hours ago by Nelson on Ausgrid network to talk back to operators

@Wow - thats one of the benefits of the iPad (and tablets in general). They are one of the most generation neutral products ever made. ...

10 hours ago by Gav on Westpac board goes paperless with iPads

and why is this such a super idea? http://www.itnews.com.au/News/301778,thousands-affected-in-billing-cloud-breach.aspx oh, yeah, right...

10 hours ago by btone on Fed Govt steps up on shared cloud plan

Wow, seems like a fantastic initiative that helps to save the environment. It must have taken a lot of convincing to get the Board to mov...

11 hours ago by Wow on Westpac board goes paperless with iPads

I'm a payed up lib member who has voted Labor in the last 2 federal elections. I had the previlege of speaking to Mr Turnball 3 months ag...

12 hours ago by spazmanaught on NBN contracts may be left alone: Turnbull

Good to see Westpac's concentrating on the real IT issues !

12 hours ago by jeff_syd on Westpac board goes paperless with iPads

I am not sure how this issue becomes an attack on Mr Turnbull. But I guess he is fair game. In any event I would have thought a Ddos woul...

22 hours ago by Doubt on National Botnet Network coming: Earthwave

I still use 98SE. Windows ME was an abortion in a bucket and Vista was ME without the bucket. My screen may look boring, but I jumped str...

22 hours ago by Treknology on Microsoft admits Vista was 'cheesy'

This story has been voted 10 times in the last 24 hours!

23 hours ago, CeBIT 2012 opens: photos

This story has been voted 15 times in the last 24 hours!

23 hours ago, Lenovo ThinkPad 3G tablet (32GB)

Well I don't know what they have done with their EFTPOS machines, local one in WA Coles Express I used this morning and I normally do "ch...

23 hours ago by harryinthesoup on Coles ditches PINs in payment pilot

6.7 M last ditch attempt - interesting - The Auckland region (population 1.4 mil) has estimated to have spent less than this in total ...

1 day ago by debsteele on Vic scraps HealthSMART system

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