Under the Microscope by Alex Serpo

A calculated look at the latest trends within technology products.

Will the NSW Govt put Linux in schools?

Posted by Alex Serpo @ 16:43 168 comments

The NSW Government's release this week of an expressions of interest tender to give low-cost laptops to every senior public school student in NSW is a big step, but will these systems be Windows or Linux?

Rolling out from 2009 onwards, the program will mean a whole generation of students will be a great deal more technically literate, which can only be a good thing. However, the cost per device (only $500) is going to be a challenge for vendors to meet.

At this price point, there is little ambiguity about the fact that the devices will be netbooks. This leaves an obvious question: will these netbooks run Windows XP or Linux?

In the rough IT environment which is public schools, Linux has a lot going for it.

In the rough IT environment which is public schools, Linux has a lot going for it. Firstly, with only $500 a computer to spend, not having to fork out for an XP or Vista licence will give vendors significantly more scope to spend on support, additional hardware, or network equipment.

Another hidden, but significant saving, will be a reduction in malware, spyware and viruses. Supplying Windows-based systems will mean costly subscriptions to security vendors, and all the support work that comes from endlessly killing malware that slips through the net. Malware for Linux, on the other hand, is a drop in the ocean by comparison. This is a big deal, as wirelessly networked schools are potentially a festering pit of malware.

Linux has reduced compatibility, but given that the Department of Education and Training wants to strictly lock down the netbooks, this may be an advantage. Teachers would not doubt be relieved that Linux-based systems won't be able to play the vast majority of games (other than internet-based Java or Flash games and a few others), meaning school machines will be left mostly for school work.

The use of Linux-based systems, combined with other open-source options like Open Office 3 also means no licence auditing, a huge potential headache for stretched school IT administrators. Given that the devices will be uniform, drivers shouldn't be a big issue. Open source also opens up a possibility of creating school-specific Linux distributions which suits the needs of the classroom.

If the government does decide to make its new "learning devices" Linux-based, the implications for open source in Australia could be huge.

Fancy a copy of "Sydney Public School Linux", anyone?

On the flip side, a Windows XP-based system has several disadvantages, beginning with the mass of malware out there for Windows-based machines. Putting that aside, there is also the problem that a Windows XP licence limits the specifications of the device.

Microsoft has previously said it would only continue to supply Windows XP for low cost "netbooks" as long as they could limit the specifications of the device, to stop competition with Vista. This is why netbooks have close to uniform specs, and specifically never more than 1GB of RAM. Thus Windows XP limits the ability of school administrators to future-proof or upgrade the netbooks.

Given this, it seems to me that Linux would be the natural choice. If the government does decide to make its new "learning devices" Linux-based, the implications for open source in Australia could be huge.

Giving every student who pass through the public school system a Linux system would be a huge boost to the OS and open source — and competition is always a good thing.

What do you think?

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Talkback 168 comments

    Windows v's non-Windows Mel Sommersberg -- 04/12/08

    "Giving every student who pass through the public school system a Linux system would be a huge boost to the OS and open source � and competition is always a good thing."

    What it won't do is prepare the student for the mainstream business OS - Windows. No matter what OS you like to bat for Windows is used more often in more worplaces than any other. Yes there are specialised environments where a unix-like OS suck as Linux, OSX, FreeBSD will be a preferred choice but on a corporate network where e-mail, web, publishing, conferencing and BMS applications are employed then Windows is the operating system in use, both in the server room and in the office. Even hardcore applications like medical imaging and patient monitoring in hospitals you will find being run on a Windows server(s) these days.

    Linux will disadvantage public school students Anonymous -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320117953)

    Executives talking to HR about job applications: "Please cull all the applicants that went to a public school - we just can't afford to be teaching them Windows and Office, just as we can't afford to teach applicants reading, writing and basic mathematics. They are all essential."

    Linux will disadvantage public school students Anonymous -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320117995)

    Yes, indeed. Because none of these kids use Windows at home do they?

    and sorry I forgot, when you learn French you forget English...

    Pity your company that turns away multi skilled people...

    Linux will disadvantage public school students Anonymous -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320118009)

    If they have Linux netbooks, they will be using those for "office skill" analogues as they do their school work.
    Sure they'll continue to run games, listen to music, watch video and surf FaceBook on their Windows machines at home.
    Can't see 'em using Office, though.
    Also, in my considerable experience, many individuals have difficulty being comfortable with only one operating system, method of clicking the mouse, location of menu items, set of shortcut keys, etc. Just as many individuals have difficulty learning even their first language well enough to not be cut from consideration for a position because their resume grammar is poor.
    I love *nix. I can word process in vi, for Pete's sake.
    But I still see Linux as a way for the liberal elite (small "l" - many Labor voters in Australia I would see as liberals) to maintain class separation - it's "good enough" for the working class and allows us to tick the political box, but it's strong Windows and Office skills that will get you a higher-paying job.
    Come to think of it, perhaps a large proportion of public school students will not have access to a Windows machine at home at all. Funny that I agreed prima facie with that assumption!

    In some instances you are quite right Mel Sommersberg -- 09/12/08 (in reply to #320118009)

    There are families who don't have computers at all. It is not often thought about but poorer families don't get the luxury of choosing an operating system because for whatever reason they can't afford a computer.

    Before someone jumps out and says 'but Linux is free' remember that when most computers are sold the price of a distributed operating system (usually a flavour of Windows) is built into the price of the hardware and you rarely if ever get a lower price after asking for Windows to be excluded.

    For the record I prefer non-Windows for some things. I'm a fan of FreeBSD for some of the servers I have. Just calling this one the way I see it.

    Linux for Schools Anonymous -- 11/06/09 (in reply to #320117995)

    - if Kids can produce documents using Open Office they can produce documents using Microsoft Office.
    - What's there to learn about Windows ? If it's such an intuitive Operating System then the skills public school educated children have acquired using an Open Source OS will easily carry across to a Windows environment.
    - they're at school to learn how to produce output using a PC *NOT* how to be Microsoft Certified Engineers
    - will the anti-virus and anti-malware programmes be 'free' as well ?
    - the money saved from licensing could be better spent on other things

    A simple falicy Morgan Storey -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320117953)

    Hmm I used the AcornOS at school and AmigaOS at home and I had no problem coming out and doing windows support within a year of leaving school. It is so important as learning to use an OS as it is learning to use a computer. Standard troubleshooting, and text editing is pretty uniform across all os'es. Besides who is to say when these students get out of school windows will be the major os.
    True IT professionals know how to hack away at least 2 OS'es in my opinion.
    As the saying goes, Learn windows and you know windows. Learn Unix and you know the World.

    What did it do? Anonymous -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320118043)

    Well, I can tell you it did nothing for your spelling!

    falicy? Try fallacy!

    YAY Morgan Storey -- 07/12/08 (in reply to #320118091)

    Attack a mispelling, yay you have won the internets, you opinion must be respected, you are a god among men...sarcasm doesn't really work on the internet, but you get the picture. Yeah I tend to work in an envrionment where I have spellcheck, regardless of the mispelling my point still stands.
    IT is about skills and not about the OS you learnt on.

    Re: Windows v's non-Windows Anonymous -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320117953)

    So by this thinking if someone were to sit you (or a recently graduated NSW student) down in front of a Mac you couldn't do anything productive? You couldn't figure out how to open a spreadsheet or browser - instead you'd sit there and say "It's not what I know, I can't do anything...".

    Students need to know what computers and their applications can do - what sort of thing spreadsheets or word processing programs are capable of. Once you know what's possible anyone with any smarts can jump into any spreadsheet application and within 5 minutes get it to do what they need it to.

    We're not talking about training Windows SysAdmins, we're talking about computer users, and Linux and it's offerings (OpenOffice etc) are so similar to what Windows offers I refuse to accept your claim that it won't prepare a student for the real world.

    Hmmmmm Anonymous -- 04/03/09 (in reply to #320118051)

    Most arguments are by arseholes who present "extremes of opinion" as fact.

    A spread sheet is a spreadsheet is a spreadsheet.

    **** **** -- 06/12/08 (in reply to #320117953)

    dumb ****

    Oh yes, and Windows will be Windows forever. Anonymous -- 09/12/08 (in reply to #320117953)

    Like you Learn on Windows 95 in Primary School, Windows 2000 and XP in High School, and on Graduating you face Fista. Oh no, I'm phucking useless to business because I haven't been taught about the fista, and I can't use this new fangled ribbon interface on Offcie 2K7.
    Gimme a break - the change between windows versions is almost as great as the change required to adapt to Office on a Mac, or OOo on Mac or Linux.

    Quite clearly there is going to be a drametic difference betwen what that learn in primary school and what they face in business, so we may as well teach them on something that is cost-effective, is accessible to all at home and school, and promotes self-exploration. Then maybe let 'em at the latest and greatest MS offering about 6 minutes before they graduate to get up to speed with what clippy is up to in the current release of whatever steaming sh!tpile Redmond is shipping on the day.

    Somersberg's Comment Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320117953)

    Whilst your comments may have some merit the majority of server installations for email is not Windows at all. Linux has had the goods on this for many years. It's also far easier to setup a server on the Linux side than on Windows & this is a major reason why Windows doesn't dominate here. Most smaller hosting organisations use nothing but Linux because of the ease & cost.

    Ultimately the world is moving away from Windows & whilst it may not happen in a week, the reality is that software will run from the browser & the OS will be a minor requirement.

    In most environments the majority of Windows needs amount to a browser, email access of which Linux has as many variants as does Windows & all just as capable but sorry no IE (cruel world), an Office product which Linux has several mostly free versions but some not, image manipulation which Linux has & accounting which Linux also has. These alternatives to Microsoft's versions are not only free in many cases but also compatible. OpenOffice for starters is perhaps not 100% but to a large degree & with Office having a large amount of extras never used by all but a 1% group of pedantics it means that it is all but compatible.

    Much of Asia, Africa, Russia, China & Europe has moved away from M$, so to be internationally viable we need to have both anyway. They all work the same & if you know how to use one software product on M$ it's pretty much clear weather on Linux without the garbage added.

    By the way, Linux has a far better desktop experience than M$ has & infinitely more able to be personally profiled. Windows has a long way to go to match the Linux desktop.

    Linux Anonymous -- 04/12/08

    Edubuntu is the way to go: free, with support, designed for educational purposes and not Windows.

    The NSW government would be mad not to contact Canonical about this.

    Windows for better compatibility BChau -- 04/12/08

    Given that there are lots more off-the-shelf applications that runs on Windows, as a parent I would want a Windows computer for my kids.

    Windows for better compatibility Anonymous -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320117967)

    As a publically provided asset (lets not forget that) it is DESIRABLE for it to be a managed system so that kids cannot install any old virus or software. The idea is that it is for learning at school isnt it?

    I certainly hope that the government is not using tax money for PC's that kids can install limewire on!

    Windows for better compatibility Anonymous -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118010)

    Well why would someone put an old virus on their own computer and yes there are also free anti-virus software out there, that work very well and are reliable and also what stops students from installing software and other things onto the computers they already have at school.

    It's because the 1's at schools have restrictions on them to limit the stuff you can do on them and considering that most students only have a limited knowledge on how to work the basic windows OS. That adding Linux there would make it harder for students to get the hang of it.

    Linux for better applications Glen -- 10/12/08 (in reply to #320117967)

    Given that there are lots of Free, fully supported, applications built into linux as a parent I would love Linux on my kids laptop/PC.

    Off-The-Shelf Michael T -- 13/02/09 (in reply to #320117967)

    There are alot of "off the internet" applications that run on Linux. Oh and most of them are free.

    In my experience they are as good as and sometimes better than their Windows based counterparts.

    You have to remember that this PC is being supplied by the government, so that your child has a laptop available to them at home and at school. This isn't a laptop for your kids to go buy Photoshop and edit pictures of themselves to go on Myspace on.

    Dual Boot Anonymous -- 04/12/08

    Since Linux is free, at the very least the laptops should come with a dual boot environment. Then let the students choose what they want to use. The only reason I can see for Windows is some software can only run on windows (e.g. AutoCAD).

    But if they don't come with linux I guess people can just install it themselves anyway... although a lot won't realise what they are missing out on unless you give them linux pre-installed.

    CAD & Linux Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320117968)

    There ar several CAD programs running on Linux. I have a feeling they began on Unix or else Macs

    Photo Anonymous -- 04/12/08

    Alex - get your photo changed. It makes you look an arrogant prick.

    photo Anonymous -- 06/12/08 (in reply to #320117970)

    What does his photo have to do with the argument at hand???

    You making a statement like this makes you "sound" like an arrogant prick!

    Learning concepts, not products Pia Waugh -- 05/12/08

    I've been speaking to educators a lot about Open Source versus Windows, and one of the things that they really like about Open Source tools and Linux is it gives students more ways to learn concepts. Rather than learning Dreamweaver, they learn about website development. Rather than learning Office 2007, they learn about office productivity. Rather than learn VB they learn programming. I think people who are concerned that students won't learn tools that are used in "the workplace" are both misunderstanding that the products students learn likely will be out of date by the time they get into the workplace anyway, and that learning only one product limits the students exposure to the conceptual learning which they would be able to apply to _any_ product/application.

    Another value of Linux and Open Source tools is that the student has either a moral or financial debt in future to participate in technology and the market (which might be their own business) using tools that are free and that they can innovate with. In fact considering pretty much every emerging business model based on Web 2.0 is based on Linux and Open Source, I would suggest it is _vital_ that all students are learning Linux.

    Anyone can easily apply Linux skills to Windows, but Windows unfortunately dumbs down computing such that people are completely disempowered by the tools they use, and the version they run.

    typo Pia Waugh -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320117991)

    I meant students have neither, not either :)

    Reality? Anonymous -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320117991)

    ...and I look forward to seeing the pixies at the bottom of the flower garden... What IS this rubbish? "Moral or financial debt", "Disempowered by the tools they run?"- what the hell are you talking about? Methinks you are mixing politics into this conversation. We seem to be drifting into fantasy land here.

    The biggest load of drivel I have seen all day. Mel Sommersberg -- 09/12/08 (in reply to #320117991)

    Define programming? C#, VB.NET and J# are just as relevant to a budding programmer as C/C++, Python and Perl, infact moreso as the former run a lot faster. That said all of the aformentioned programming languages have their avdantages which is why they are all popular.

    I'll add that not all web developers that use Windows also use Dreamweaver. I am a web developer and I've touched Dreamweaver once and only long enough to consider it a waste of time. I hand code all my pages in Notepad which allows me to build a page that works in all web browsers without having to insert any browser-specific code.

    "In fact considering pretty much every emerging business model based on Web 2.0 is based on Linux and Open Source"

    More unsubstantiated bull.

    I will add that 90% of the students who will receive laptops from the Government will do no more than write essays on them. They'll have no interest at all in becoming IT workers, loading computers with operating systems, server and client software, building networks, etc. What will Linux do for them that Windows won't? For the mainstream, Office is the worlds most powerful office software suite by far. Yes it has imitators and some of them come close but not close enough. With all this in mind your whole post has completely evaded the point.

    what will Linux do for them that Windows wont? Anonymous -- 09/12/08 (in reply to #320118408)

    I think the onus should be the other way around, considering one is free.

    Unsubstantiated BULL Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118408)

    Well, obviously you're just a big M$ fan & believe that the company you love will continue as the world leader forever. It shows because your programming experience never mentioned Java or Ruby. Now perhaps you're an expert on C# or J+ which is just a M$ adulterated perversion of Java, as is the next installment, C#, but that shows your hide in the closet mentality. Kids get around M$ & they also get around Linux much easier than the older generations bcoz they don't have the handicaps of too much experience with one & not the other. Kids won't care that much except they won't be able to play their fantastic games on a machine that hasn't got the power anyway. For what they need them for & the fact that 80 to 90% of kids will have the same thing within a relative viewpoint will mean that as they improve on their machines they will be seen as cool. With a desktop experience that Windows cannot match, Linux is more likely to be the trendy machine. With uni students being relatively destitute the Linux netbooks are a huge help.

    Linux is the way...

    Blah Mel Sommersberg -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118618)

    I'd hardly call referring to C# a closet mentality. .NET is the fastest rising star in the programming world and the fact that the open source world is busting a gut to make it work on Linux proves it and C# is one of the most popular languages that works in the .NET environment.

    Just because I haven't listed other programming languages doesn't mean I dispute their importance Rex, so get off your high horse.

    Wow Mel Rex Alfie Lee -- 19/12/08 (in reply to #320118638)

    That was huge Mel. Sorry if I misunderstood your meanings but your point on .NOT is not actually proven. Java is one the largest used programming software systems because of its reliability & ease of incorporation into the web. The fact that you added J+ & disregarded the originator of it brings home my exact message. BTW C# is the next interpretation of Microsux's Java which didn't do what it was supposed to do.

    Also BTW, Microsoft were terrified of Java & created Java to be just another programming language so that they could muddy it to remove its usefulness. Initially their attempts succeeded but it cost them 1.7 billion dollars for their attempt. It began as Java, became J+, then became C# & whilst their was one company, Novell, that made a huge investment into getting .Not working on Linux using Mono, most Linux programmers that I have any contact with wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole.

    Funny Anonymous -- 24/12/08 (in reply to #320119513)

    ..and the moon landings were faked!! Nice conspiracy theory!!!

    Disadvantages of Linux Anonymous -- 06/01/09 (in reply to #320117991)

    You will be frustrated by dumb companies who are forced by Microsoft to keep using M$ products. You will prove that your corporate leaders are dumb. You'll prove that our leaders who promote M$ over OSS are actually overpaid kids playing games in their own offices at customer expense. You'll have depression when you find the younger generations of non-americans taking over america because they have had to learn sciences, maths and new technologies that make them better in the corporate world. You might Bill Gates persued by International Business Lawyers trying to put him in jail for all the softwares his company has stolen -- and instead being made to pay dollars and cents - how about 5 years in the pokey.

    See what DET catches? Tony Searl -- 05/12/08

    If you go fishing with a big lure, as DET NSW has with this tender, it will be fascinating to see what may bite.
    The 2 tenders, one for learning devices, one for wireless, although separate, are linked and must support each other. New consortiums are expected to form and screw the price down to never before seen levels, witness Dell with their fleet managemnt win for the last mega DET tender, who would have thought that low price was possible?

    With Tim Anderson still in charge at DET ICT we may just see the $500 windows full featured laptop result from this fishing expedition. I'll be very interested to see what they pull in.

    Parents Anonymous -- 05/12/08

    So - did anyone bother asking parents what they want their children to be using? Or is DET traking the usual 'we know best" approach. On this - they clearly don't know best. My child will not be running some cut price heap of garbage. She will be getting a Windows PC with all the fruit. End of story.

    Netbooks Anonymous -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320118032)

    If these computers are sub $500 then they will be never be a replacement for a Windows PC at home. You seem to be ignorant that when your kids grow up the PC will be well and truly dead.

    I believe that these sub $500 netbooks, whether running windows or linux, will be the closest experience to the future of computing.

    Actually Anonymous -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320118042)

    No, I am familiar with that bulldust about the PC being being a dead duck. Heard it before. Will hear it again. Anyone who thinks things are going 100% cloud is deluded. Or selling it. Like most things in life, the outcome will be somewhere in the middle. I'm in the industry bud. Ignorant? Don't think so.

    Either way, time will tell.

    @Actually Thomas -- 29/01/09 (in reply to #320118047)

    I work in the industry too - and I see a lot of people like you 'in the know' who are, like you ignorant.

    I don't think anyone has ever pointed to things being 100% cloud computing.

    But I think it will be the future without doubt.
    You have lower costs for hardware, machines that only need to run a browser. You have centralisation - theoretically you can have 1 data centre and less machines to administer. Lower bandwidth with webmail - no more resource hogging email clients. Rolling out software? Roll it out to one terminal server and you are done. Just to name a few.

    With technologies like ESX servers this is becoming more and more the norm in organisations.

    Check out zoho.com, take a look at the zoho creator - even the dumbest Manager can create and online database in two seconds flat, and share it with the team. Office live is joining in - what about gmail and google docs? With google announcing gmail will work offline, cloud looks like it is becoming a bigger reality.

    If things meet in the middle like you say - I would be very surprised. More likely near that 100% fit.

    Parents Anonymous -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320118032)

    Good to see we all have $1000+ to purchase a notebook for our kids to throw around the playground. Can you go and buy a couple for my two kids while your at it Ms Parent.

    You should go look at what OLPC are doing at http://www.laptop.org/en/. Robust laptops powered by linux to enable all the children of the world to be able to collaberate. These units are being priced at $250USD.

    Priorities Anonymous -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320118054)

    This is a simple matter of priorities. How serious are you about your child's education? I have a picture in my head of a parent whining about this while they stick a smoke in their mouth.

    Priorities people, priorities.

    Parents Anonymous -- 06/12/08 (in reply to #320118032)

    If we asked parents about what they wanted in education nothing would ever happen. One parent would want this and the other that and then another would want something different.

    There is a reason why experts make the decisions, because they are EXPERTS!

    Linux is cheap because it doesn't have to pay Bill's salary, not because it is somehow inferior. Some say its better than windoze because there are literally millions of people who contribute to its development.

    Thank you for showing everyone why parents are consulted, but in the end, the decisions are made by those in the know!

    PS: No one is stopping you from buying your children a windoze machine! It would actually be extremely advantageous if they used linux at school and windoze at home. That is what would happen in most cases anyhow if this were to go through.

    Fantasy Land Anonymous -- 06/12/08 (in reply to #320118133)

    Literally millions? Some say? Exactly who? What a load of bulldust...and sorry mate. It's great for some workloads, but on the desktop Linux has been a complete failure in mainstream computing.

    ..and by the way - I am in the IT industry - and I have worked with education departments across the country. From what I have seen these guys are certainly not in the know. If you ever wanted to end up with a small fortune – give these guys a large fortune. And don’t expect any actual delivery. Experts?? Don't make me laugh!

    Not rocket science. Michael T -- 13/02/09 (in reply to #320118032)

    If you want a Windows PC for your child, then you can go and buy it.

    This isn't a handout so your kids can play games. This is providing every student with a laptop for educational purposes at both home and at school.

    There is no reason why they can't have dual boot desktop PCs in "Computer Studies" rooms.

    IMHO, students should be introduced to both operating systems from an early age.

    I personally started using Microsoft Works when I was about 9. I went through the Works package, Office 2000, Office 2003, and now Office 2007, and can use any of them at a high level. I never recieved any training in any of these packages until grade 8, and I basically taught half my class whilst the teacher focused on students who were having trouble.

    Sometime after I started using Office 2003, I was introduced to Open Office, and instantly picked that up too.

    By teaching kids how to 'use Microsoft Word', that's all they learn. But when you teach them 'how to use a word processor', they learn so much more.

    Let's Teach Kids on ISO Standard Products Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 05/12/08

    The other big issue not covered yet in comments is the issue of 'standards'. The International Standards Organisation (ISO) recently selected OpenOffice's 'open document' format as the ISO standard format for word processing documents for the next 50+ years. I object to teaching kids any multi-national's proprietary wares, as it sets us up for more licence fees downstream, both as apps are purchased beyond the first $500 piece of hardware, and for later when using home computers or work computers. If we train kids on Open Source (as most developing countries are using) then we will have an 'open door' policy for extra apps. My daughter's school has lots of Photoshop and other $600-800 apps, whereas with Open Source, any kid interested in such work can download Scribus and do design work, without a Photoshop licence. Any kid interested in CAD can download a free CAD application. I think the real costs are in the 'extra apps' no one is pricing in at present. Even Premier Rees in a letter-to-ed to SMH yesterday claimed that the increase from $500 for laptop to $2300 overall costs was in wireless and IT support.... but he forgot to mention the cost of extra apps and the resultant extra admin they bring.

    Also, a good Linux distro does not 'date' like a commercial OS, because it is being updated all the time - compare this to the commercial model, where an OS is allowed to intentionally go 'stale' so you will fork out the dollars for the next version.

    I've posted some related issues on this previously in ZDnet forums at
    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2370940.htm
    and copied this onto the ABC's blog on the subject at:
    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2370940.htm
    and some of the similar issues are covered in my comments on Linux vs XP vs Vista at:
    http://www.zdnet.com.au/blogs/dont-fall-for-it/soa/Microsoft-Don-t-kill-our-old-friend-XP/0,2001084681,339288615,00.htm
    http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Vista-shunned-in-business-survey/0,130061733,339292397,00.htm and http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Rudd-wants-computer-cooperation/0,130061702,339292316,00.htm and http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Linux-teething-problems-affect-netbook-returns/0,130061702,339292575,00.htm

    Does not make logical sense. Joke -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320118055)

    Ahhh - Office XML Formats are based on industry standard XML and ZIP technologies, support full integration by any technology provider, and are available via a royalty-free license.

    So what is your problem??
    This is an argument based on emotion, not fact.

    Biting the hand that feeds pfft@pffft.com -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320118062)

    I noticed you claim to be from Harvard and you are ranting about multi-nationals.

    So are you biting the hand that feeds you, or are you too emotional about this subject to think rationally?

    I'm biting the hand that I helped feed Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118063)

    Actually, I was on the team of five at Harvard Business School in 1978-9 which developed 'Visicalc' - the very first electronic spreadsheet. It was the brainchild of my classmate Dan Bricklin and I was only on 'design review', so I am not taking credit for it. I went on as a Harvard consultant to The White House on IT issues etc, and Dan released Visicalc to Apple, which got Apple established. Apple hoped to get the 'home market' with the Apple ][ but within a year over 40% of their 'pre-PC' fully-assembled micro-computers (ie not kits as were common then) were purchased by larger companies which already had a computer doing Accounts etc, for the sole purpose of free-format financial modelling.

    Anyway, the 'look and feel' (and concepts) of Visicalc were illegally copied into Lotus 123, and after some law suits, Lotus paid US$2m to Dan for the rights to the spreadsheet concept (Lotus is now a subsidiary of IBM). However, when the same type of copying by M$ delivered first 'Multiplan' and then 'Excel', Microsoft paid no royalties. Any amounts would have correctly gone to Dan (with nil to me), so don't assume I have any sour grapes in the issue.
    Similarly, I noted how throughout the 1980s, M$ Word slowly incorporated all of the best features of WordPerfect, the then best-selling word processing package. And of course many of the concepts of windows and mice came from Xerox's famous Palo Alto Research facility.
    So I chuckle every time I hear an M$ exec explain that they cannot allow used business computers to be refurbed for use by disadvantaged kids, 'cause they need a return on all of M$' R&D,.. I know that much of the vital R&D for the key products that maintain's M$' near-monopoly were actually 'lifted' from competitor's offerings without any recompense. Still, that is in some ways the nature of software, and as OpenSource offerings now 'lift' user-interface ideas from M$, the process goes full circle... like expired patents becoming available in pharmaceuticals.
    But my underlying point is that I would rather see us train our kids in the use of non-proprietary software, owned by the world community and guaranteed by registered standards documents held and maintained by the ISO.
    And for the comment that perhaps I am irrational about this, consider a world where photo-voltaics and hybrid-engine automotive technologies were royalty-free, rather than being tightly controlled by a swag of patent holders who can decide who is or is not licenced to use this technology that the world needs. It is very easy to fall into proprietary pits, and very hard to dig oneself out of them. But Portugal is doing 500,000 laptops for kids on Linux, and Brazil has contracted for 1,000,000 - so why should Australia be the only mug to spend twice as much as the hardware now costs on extra licensing costs.

    Don't Suggest M$ Office comes at no cost Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118062)

    The pro-M$ 'joke' anonymous poster suggests that M$' Office product is based on industry-standard XML technologies. This is the Microsoft line, that while the program is not 'open' and the format is not 'open', M$ does publish the schema that allows external applications to access the data.

    This was rejected way back in 2003 in the Valoris Report of the EU (http://www.europa.eu.int/idabc/servlets/Doc?id=17982), which found that long-term archival storage, multi-platform interoperability, and security required standardisation to the OpenOffice open document format, in preference to the M$ formats.

    The EU also published M$' objections to the Valoris Report (http://ec.europa.eu/idabc/servlets/Doc?id=17984) but claiming being able to work (if the format is not changed) with other apps, is NOT the same as a truly open format, controlled by a standards committee. For 20 years M$ kept changing what it meant to safe something in a "DOT DOC" format and it worked for M$ for many years, as users were forced to upgrade to the latest version of Office to be able to read files sent to them by others... but now it has back-fired on M$, as governments (in particular) got fed-up with having document standards change willy-nilly.

    Anyway, all of that is simply history, as the ISO selected OpenOffice's format (see www.openoffice.org) as the standard, and now M$ is on the back-foot trying to provide an import-export function to handle the new world standard. For many years the niggling issue will be the small incompatibilities that creep in with working in one paradigm and saving in another. Undoubtedly the safest bet will be OpenOffice for some time to come, till M$ can prove true low-level consistent compatibility, otherwise your paragraphs will wrap differently, your presentations will have words creeping off the edge of the screen (at just certain point sizes or fonts) etc etc.

    And the one-click PDF production is a god-send on OpenOffice and really distinguishes it from M$ Office... especially now that Adobe has put the PDF format under the control of ISO, to make it truly 'open'.

    And 'Joke' suggested that the M$ Office was "available via a royalty-free licence".. but M$ Office is NOT zero-cost, so he must be talking about the licence to just see its schema... or maybe just to 'view' (ie not edit) a M$ Office document. Yet OpenOffice is truly ALL open and ALL nil-cost.

    Huh? Anonymous -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118268)

    So, hasn't the Office XML become an ISO Standard? I thought it had.

    M$ format ALSO approved as 2nd ISO Apr08 Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118271)

    Yes, sorry, I was not up on the very latest ISO news of just some months ago.

    After a major brawl over document standards, the International Standards Organisation approved OpenOffice's Open Document Format (ODF) a few years ago.

    This led to the threat that M$ would be thrown out of a whole range of government applications,,, so M$ put a concerted no-holds-barred effort into getting the national standards bodies to support a move for M$' 6000-pages of documentation for its "Office Open XML" to ALSO become approved. Everything down to the naming is sort of intended to mislead, as if M$ has ever been that supportive of 'open software' or standards. But who would ever confuse the existing "Open Office's XML Standard" with M$' newly-named "Office Open XML Standard".

    The best write-up of the catch-up efforts are at:
    http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070313-microsoft-office-xml-gets-fast-tracked-to-iso-standard.html

    and its final approval in 2008 is at:
    http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080401-microsofts-office-open-xml-now-an-official-iso-standard.html

    Of note, the second article notes "critics who claim that Microsoft has engaged in abusive practices ranging from committee-stuffing to potential vote buying. Critics have documented some evidence of various irregularities in national body internal voting processes in Russia, Poland, Mexico, Sweden, Germany, and other countries."

    The irregularities are summarised at:
    http://www.noooxml.org/irregularities

    As can be see there, the claim is that the 'purported standard' is neither 'open' (owned by a not-for-profit) nor does it meet the European definition of a 'standard' (with a committee of all interested parties decides its future direction).

    A formal review of the irregularities (Burton Group Study) noted that as the existing ISO standard (ODF) threatened a major component of M$ revenue, it was understandable that M$ "exploited the loopholes" with "poor standards etiquette" in gaining approval. Those loopholes have NOW been closed.

    Personally, I think the tide has turned and the world is keen to stick to things that will not trip everyone up in the future... so the switch to Open Office seems unstoppable.

    And Keep In Mind Historical Keeping To Standards Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118281)

    And any discussion on standards for office documents generally, ought keep in mind the following extract from the EU's Valoris Report:
    "A recent presentation from CNES (Centre National des Etudes Spatiales, France) pointed out that documents at CNES which were created using word processors in 1985, had to be re-keyed in manually in 1990 (MS Word 2), and then again in 1997 (MS Word 95). I.e. the upward compatibility chain was broken in less than 10 years. Moreover, documents created in 1995 had to be restructured manually in more recent Word versions, and all mathematical formulae re-inserted."
    So, I think the world generally will switch to the more 'structured/simpler' Open Document Format (ODF) than the Office XML versions... though I'm the first to admit that there is a large amount of inertia involved... and that even government bodies who have seen the problems with keeping older formats of electronic documents viewable are slow to convert to more open standards, due to their own internal staff being simply more 'used' to the M$ equivalent package. However, when you set up Open Office for most users, they can operate within minutes, and become comfortable with the change within hours.
    And in this blog, we are talking about setting up school children with their skills for life - so that IS the right time to break the link, and teach them with the new truly-open truly-standard apps.

    ECMA? Huh? -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118287)

    So does the hand over of the standard to ECMA not meet the requirement you speak of? Don't they own the standard?..

    Microsoft has made NO COMMITMENT to standards compliance Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118292)

    Yes, to avoid being kicked out of even US state government departmental use, M$ had an 11th hour epiphany to FINALLY perceive a benefit derivable from standards.

    And yes, M$ has now submitted a document that specifies what it PRESENTLY implements in OfficeXML... but one would be a fool to believe that a standards committee in any dictates what M$ will do in the future. And the M$ 'standard' is full of proprietary hooks (see links I provided earlier).

    M$ has licensed its IP, but on its terms, far from the GNU Open Source licence. More importantly, M$ has made NO COMMITMENT to keep to any standard in the future. And the company has had a three-decade history of fighting standards.

    But now that M$ has an ISO rubber-stamp, I'm sure it will see that, as it is now not to be thrown out of government, it will hope to return to 'business as usual'. And the senior M$ execs have confirmed that this is to combat the 'commoditisation' of software. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_Documents). In those leaked M$ documents, the agreed M$ approach to standards is to "embrace, enhance, extinguish"... meaning to proffer support for a standard, then add lots of 'enhancements' within proprietary M$ applications and thereby to effectively extinguish the standard. The same has happened on HTML extensions etc, which is what led people to originally give up using non-MS browsers after M$ killed-off Netscape. Firefox re-ignited that war, but the biggest impediment still are corporates who write sites using M$ proprietary extensions, rather than keeping to the standards.

    M$ will hope that it's obtaining a 'get out of jail free' card from ISO leads to M$ retaining a dominant share of the office apps market (ie to stall the market share advance of Open Office). If M$ does stall Open Office, then it will not be long before M$ would be back to offering 'proprietary extensions' as a way to 'help' users... whereas in reality the purpose would be to regain true lock-in of those users. I recall that Microsoft's 'Cobol' compiler of 1982 was not ANSI standard... a decade later Microsoft C+/C++ was extolled for the special extensions it offered... And .NET was a full lock-in strategy for those that were prepared to bite hook, line and sinker. Indeed, the reason Linux 'owns' the web-server market and Open Source Apache is the most used web server software in the world was in response to the number of organisations feeling frustrated over the simple desire to have standard information available on the web, based on standards, with high reliability, with a minimum of mucking around with proprietary updates (that brought their own new problems), avoiding licensing cut-over problems and avoiding viral attacks.

    A company I'm associated with discovered the hard way that M$ Server2003 dropped support for calls that worked with the immediately-prior M$ server software. M$ has never really respected 'reverse compatibility' as a concept, as the M$ mantra is that you need to stay with their current technologies as they only support their current products... and if that means you have to keep re-writing applications to stay with the current M$ thinking, then so be it. Open Source products maximise reverse compatibility, as they don't want to upset long-time users with a critical failure or forced re-write at time of upgrade.

    As they say of M$, the one big benefit is that this company has single-handedly caused such a growth in IT jobs, just to keep the wheels turning.

    Geez Observer -- 09/12/08 (in reply to #320118330)

    What an amazing stinky pile of vitriol!

    Geez, Observer Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118361)

    Vitriol perhaps but their are many of us who believe exactly as Graham Harrison has said. Perhaps your vehemence at his remarks were the real vitriol.

    Graeme, you are a laugh-a-minute Mel Sommersberg -- 09/12/08 (in reply to #320118330)

    In a lot of cases Microsoft's software was around before unelected gronks formed all these standards groups.

    Given that Microsoft software is present on more computers than any competing equivalent, by default this makes Microsoft software an elected standard in its own right.

    It's fashionable to hate Microsoft and bag their products but let's face facts Graeme, your stance is so 1995 - get over it.

    Unbelievable Steve Fillimore -- 09/12/08 (in reply to #320118367)

    I can't believe this guy is dragging up things from so long ago. 1982 - who cares?

    So let's get this straight. People ask Microsoft to implement more standards in their products. So they do. And people whine.

    Then they get ISO certification. People still whine

    Then they hand over the standard for another body to manage. More whining.

    They really can't win can they?

    I'm sure you'll go down the 'those that forget history ..." path. My pre-emptive retort is those that dwell on the past stay there.

    Get over it.

    Baaaaaa! Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118367)

    Mel, you're a sheep, just another M$ baa! Follow the pack & see where it goes & if I die I never had any control in my life because it was pre-ordained for me. Grow up & take responsibility for your life rather than do as every other sheep does by accepting the fate of the dominators of the world.

    The People like Graeme who speak out against the type of tyranny that is a model of the M$ monopolist behaviour are the ones who create change in the world & usually for the better.

    Perhaps you are just another M$ spokesperson who really doesn't have their own POV.

    Do some research instead of assuming too much Mel Sommersberg -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118622)

    Rex, it is probably you that is the sheep - I can picture you being one of the people that continues to use Microsoft products whilst at the same time bagging them in forums.

    I use Microsoft products. I also use freeware products like FreeBSD. I'm in no-one's camp and I use what suits me best for a given task. You sound like you'll find this hard to come to terms with but your bias against Microsoft is overwhelming to say the least and absurd to say the most.

    It's Neo Steve -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118622)

    I'm so happy that Rex/Neo is here to save us from the evils of Microsoft/The Matrix.

    You are funny. Tyranny? Bwoahahahahahha!!!!

    Get over it.

    Mel, I think it is YOU who is waging an old war Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 23/12/08 (in reply to #320118367)

    Mel, I think your arguments in slavish support of M$ are dated. I've argued why truly open standards and free licensing has benefits, and all you have replied with is that M$ has market share. Well we know that, multiple-felon M$ was found to have breached both US anti-trust laws and EU pro-competition laws to achieve that market share. M$ has ruthlessly driven competitors out of business (eg first browse war) by any means possible (legal or illegal) to maintain that market share. So, I fully accept why older people like yourselves may not want to go to the trouble of changing OS, but we are talking about school kids here, and what we should be teaching them to use. Free the shackles! Let them decide after they leave school, but stop promoting that we should be sending large slabs of tax-payer money to Redmond WA to keep M$ happy. Most countries with whom we will be competing in the coming decades are working to lessen their substantial $1b+ pa payments to this particular foreign multi-national, in part because such licence fees are not necessary (ie open source is just as good) and because they see that this is a continued artificial cost impost on the economy, and a burden to the Current Account (trade deficit). All of these changes are happening now, and open source was not in a position to be a viable alternative in 1995. I think your coloured language is just your usual attempt to attack the person, rather than address the argument they put forward. When you next pick a 'worthy cause' to promote, perhaps you ought select an international aid agency or some other organisation displaying the moral values you would like to have your name associated with. IMHO, convicted multiple-felon M$ is still acting in clear contravention of Australia's Trade Practices Act, by mis-using market share to enter into exclusive dealing arrangements with wholesalers and retailers of computers in Australia, for forced bundling of M$ operating systems. How would it be if you couldn't purchase a TV in Australia without also signing up for an on-going Foxtel licence? Let's pursue a free and open market, where people can purchase whatever operating system they want, and retailers can have whatever OS they want pre-installed. The real distortion is this concept that only PCs with less than 1GB of RAM (ie never able to effectively run Vista) can be offered with XP (a dead product). It is clearly distorting the market, and a lot of people will have sub-standard PCs for the next few years, simply because of this improper external influence.

    Linux or Microsoft -- Right? Anonymous -- 06/01/09 (in reply to #320119804)

    Okay - I just read tons of replies over the M$ Monopoly and not one had any formatting that eith Linux or M$ can't do. For the love of pete - give M$ another chance...Bill needs some money and Australian blokes don't need any money. Everyone knows all things Linux and M$ were originally built with C/C++ on Unix or Unix-like machines. Everyone knows that M$ products are spinoffs, buyouts or downright stolen goods from other software developers so what's the argument? I haven't met anyone in my lifetime that has been able to or had use of creating any portfolio, dossier or other kinds of documents that are beyond simple plain English or other Language conversion for that peoples - that can't be done with either Linux or M$ softwares. I think M$ will always win because - look at the IQ's of the people having these arguments. If Linux is so much better - then really smart people wouldn't ever be using M$ -- or wait a minute, Steve Jobs would have lowered his price on his machines and Apple's software suites that came from C/C++ and Unix and would be the world standard. NO - M$ made idiot products for idiots and out of all the schools in the world - only a few smart people go to Harvard, Standford or Oxford so the rest of the schools must be for idiots because they buy the largest portions of M$ softwares - where as the really smart peoples who went to the Big 3 - studied real programming like Fortran, LISP, C/C++ and the Assembly Languages they are made of...and create more M$ compatible products that work - for the dummy market that M$ discovered back in the day. In today's world - Unix and Linux for sure have freed the minds of the 3rd World Nations to think and grow - and they are doing just that and the market now has a deluge of new found brainiacs. It's all been about dollars and cents (sense) and for those who had no weapons such as Linux that M$ wouldn't release - they now have a chance for change. Both products are excellent products...the wold's young and poor brainiacs only needed a chance. They have it now. Soon you will see huge programs like Autocad hitting the markets and huge Animating Graphics programs like Crystal Graphics will be commonplace on Linux machines. Time tears down and destroys everything -- and M$ is no different than anything or anyone else and will see its demise as shall Linux someday. The new and upcoming softwares may not even be anything like we have today but might look big ole' Moonpies in the skies.

    The Dark Side of the Cloud Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 06/01/09 (in reply to #320120392)

    I agree with most of what anonymous had to say... that is the bits I understood supporting an open approach. I got a bit lost with the reference to "upcoming softwares... might look big ole' Moonpies in the skies". I take that to be a coded reference to the dark side of 'cloud computing'...

    Wrong Standard for the job Anonymous -- 09/12/08 (in reply to #320118287)

    I think the specification of internal document formats for archival is wrong use of standards. It will either stiffle technological advances or be ignored in practice.

    OpenOffice is just a clone of the crude MS separate apps. Are we to be saddled with this artificial separation of content for the rest of eternity? Hardly! When better integrated products become available, will all be expected to save them in formats that just cannot handle the newer internal structures? Of course not. Bye bye old standard, in with newer. Ok, how to convert older ones? Big problem.

    For archiving, non-lossy image compression is the best. If newer, more efficient technology comes online, the whole archive can be batch processed without error. Basing archiving on internal document standards will just make upgrading extremely difficult, to be attempted every time a new standard comes about due to innovation and evolution.

    Standards Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118383)

    These standards take a very long time to come about. They are meticulously thought through & upgrade slowly depending on the advancements taken by multiple organisations rather than one. They concern themselves with the overall methodology used in those advancements & if these become Magic (like a number - eg 6 numbers on a dice) then they are dropped. M$ has a habit of throwing around Magics & these rightly should be dumped immediately on that basis alone.

    Magics impair progress because they can't be replicated without more Magics & if anything changes then all of the Magics break.

    Join the progress & stay with M$. Your doozy & I'll laugh.

    What?? Anonymous -- 13/12/08 (in reply to #320118623)

    This does not make any sense. When you return to planet earth, try again.

    Committee Stacking Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118281)

    You mentioned committee-stacking. This stacking was the import of voters to alter the numbers of pro-M$ votes & was done by promises of cheaper software. M$'s Office Open XML apparently doesn't make sense & this is why there are thousands of pages attempting to support it's use because it doesn't stand up on its own. Apparently it doesn't even work yet.

    Joke - Office XML Formats Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118062)

    Dear Joke, these formats you're talking about were the result of M$ buying seats on the bidding table for small countries who were to be receiving the benefits of their vote. The formats by M$ were rejected by most of the more knowledgeable groups who were not able to be bribed by M$. Ultimately M$ got their own way but like a lot of M$'s software it doesn't work properly yet. I guess they're waiting for the world to test it for them. Lock-in by a monopoly is never a good thing.

    Are you I smell something... -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320118055)

    ...the same Graham Harrison that rants about proprietary slavery? Sounds like you have a political problem ... anything but Microsoft huh?

    It's not about M$ per se, just non-proprietary Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118076)

    If the state governments were considering some other non-open (proprietary) OS or office suite, I'd be equally incensed. It's not about M$ per se, but the concept of putting leg-irons around the legs of the kids at such a young age... M$ will compete really hard in educational tenders, because M$ knows that once they're hooked, they're hooked for life, and conversely, no-one taught on Linux these days ever goes back to M$, so it is a fight for survival. And they can afford to charge corporates a true premium, to put software into schools for virtually nothing - but is that a good deal for Australia?
    And finally, for anyone interested in the topic, it is worth reading the leaded documents from multiple-felon as to how they compete unfairly at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_Documents
    The most revealing insight is the M$ policy towards standards in software, which is summarised by their own senior execs as "embrace, enhance, extinguish"...

    Education Anonymous -- 05/12/08

    I went to Deakin university many years ago and guess what operating system we used when "learning" about operating systems - Linux. In my computer science degree I did not use a windows product once.
    I have no problems using a windows os at work or windows software.
    If you can use Linux then Windows is easy.
    If you only use windows then you have problems.

    Let the morons have their windoze Anonymous -- 05/12/08

    Wouldn't it be simpler for parents to vote with their wallets? If you want to spend $150 per year on antivirus software, $200 on Microsoft Office, $600 on Autocad, $1500 on Photoshop, $160 on Windows XP, go ahead. The reason Linux is being considered is because the schools aren't made of money and neither are most Australians. The primary functions and features you find in Word, Excel and Powerpoint can be found in Open Office on Linux, heck it even looks like the Micro$oft version and saves to a Micro$oft format if you want. If you want to buy on emotion and not logic, follow the crowd of people lining up to pay a technician to remove the malware on their windoze PC their children mindlessly downloaded through limewire. If you seriously have this much money to throw around perhaps you should also waste more on a private school education.

    Private school ? Good idea! Anon -- 05/12/08 (in reply to #320118087)

    Well, maybe I will - and my child will be many steps ahead. If public education heads down this path, I will be sending her to a private school. And it won't be a waste.

    Public schools for the wasted folk Anonymous -- 06/12/08 (in reply to #320118089)

    I wouldn't put my child in a private school. Division of genders hindering social skills with the opposite sex, compulsory religious education that A. Is taught as a fact when it has no scientific evidence to support its claims B. Usually offer only one religion instead of giving the student a choice of mythologies to study. These institutions rely on image and prestige, charging excessive amounts. However, when you search for information on student performance regarding public vs private schools the data shows the end result to be the same if not tipped toward the public school system. Private schools exist for the same reason so many people own 4WD's but never take them off-road. To satisfy their huge middle upper class ego's. Ironically public schools wouldn't be struggling in their IT budgets if private schools didn't exist, drawing disproportionate secular funds from the Australian tax-payer

    ****umptions Anonymous -- 06/12/08 (in reply to #320118098)

    You're assuming a lot...
    Not every private school has a religious affiliation.
    Not every private school is single gender.
    My 4WD is not designed to go off road - it's a 911!

    ****umptions Anonymous -- 06/12/08 (in reply to #320118122)

    I think you'll find the vast majority of private schools have a religious affiliation!!!

    And a considerable amount are single gender as a result!

    And if you are driving a 911, why are you on a blog about public education?

    Well... Anonymous -- 06/12/08 (in reply to #320118134)

    Because a spirited discussion is always fun! And I always have the hope that one day public education will be done well in this country.

    And.. Anonymous -- 06/12/08 (in reply to #320118143)

    I wouldn't get hung up on the 911 - some Commodores are more expensive!!

    Private School? Glen -- 10/12/08 (in reply to #320118089)

    And then when all the public school kids come out with Linux and Windows abilities and you find that most of the big companies (that are already moving to open document formats) are using open source software, your kid will become disadvantaged.

    Deluded Steve Fillimore -- 10/12/08 (in reply to #320118499)

    The people I work with in the real world could not give a rat's **** about this whole document format issue.

    The only people who seem to care are the anal-retentives in various standards bodies and those looking for any opportunity to beat up on vendors.

    Meanwhile, the real world moves on.

    Document Format Standards Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118501)

    Actually, any company that works on Government contracts would be or should be very interested because if that Gov't makes a choice then so does the company by default.

    You don't know a lot about this subject do you?

    Ahhhh Steve Fillimore -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118624)

    Oh dear Rex. I guess I don't. I'm only observing the behaviour of the 15+ government organisations I have consulted to over the past 8+ years. I've only been in the IT industry for 15. Maybe I need less experience to make this decision?

    But then, what would I know.

    And the observation is - they couldn't care less.

    Like I said - The only people who seem to care are the anal-retentives in various standards bodies and those looking for any opportunity to beat up on vendors.

    Yawn...

    As I said... Rex Alfie Lee -- 19/12/08 (in reply to #320118642)

    As I said before Steve babee, if the Gov't goes for the OpenOffice standards as opposed to the MS so-called standards then the Gov't-contracted businesses do so by default. Unless they are willing to chance every M$ conversion program.

    Jumping in at the end Stevie is something M$ may well have to do to become a usable product again if they don't get the Gov't backing. This is a possibility.

    Feeding Frenzy Tony Searl -- 06/12/08

    DET are certainly shaking the ICT tree by putting such massive tenders on the table. If companies want the $s, then they're going to have to come to the table and play DET's game.

    Since DET procurement changed the way they do business, its upset a few of the industry sloths and minnows who just can't compete with inefficient economies of scale, or prices.

    Let the squirming begin, screw 'em down. DET NSW is the second biggest edubeurocracy in the world so they should demand and receive value for such a massive tender.

    As I said in an earlier post, it'll be interesting who comes to play the DET fishing game, DET have the upper hand here and suppliers know it.

    The linux/open source vs windows/proprietory issues comes with DETs concerns about costly and ongoing staff training, not the obvious no brainer entry cost savings. It will happen but it won't happen overnight.

    Why didn't DET migrate staff to gmail as well as the kids in the recent upgrade?

    Simple. Expensive staff retraining. DET know where the real ongoing ICT costs are and it aint in hardware, software or os choice. Its in trying to upskill staff that are flat out mastering ICT thats been around for decades.

    Risk Mitigation Anonymous -- 06/12/08 (in reply to #320118109)

    It's also a risk mitigation step - seen how many times Gmail has been down lately?

    not so good for staff email migration either Anonymous -- 07/12/08 (in reply to #320118142)

    certainly felt the pain of a cumbersome DET email domain migration, right at the peak use time for staff. Stuffed many users totally for three weeks.

    Retraining, not software, hardware??? Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118109)

    Costs are in retraining are they? Once the retraining is done which would probably be 2 days max to learn how to turn on a computer, click Firefox & use it, or click OpenOffice & use it & perhaps learn how to save a file & copy a file.

    Every year using the new software selling points it will mean millions of dollars just to use M$. Many millions of dollars. Once Linux is installed & the pundits who can't use it have learnt how then those updates are zip, zero, nothing. We pay nothing to the good old USA & all payments remain here in OZ. That means our GDP is reduced & if it were to go across the board we would be a lot better off & financial meltdowns overseas would affect us less.

    Get rid of M$.

    right.... Steve Fillimore -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118626)

    What a pack of bulldust!!! You don't have any economics under your belt do you?

    Actually Steve Fillimore -- 19/12/08 (in reply to #320119515)

    GDP is defined as the total market value of all final goods and services produced within the country. The effect of buying software from a company headquartered in a different jurisdiction means jack to GDP. Buying commercial software or downloading Open Source software has no impact on GDP, unless the software purchased is produced in that economy.

    How does using a particular type of software insulate you from a financial crisis? I’m curious.

    On the Linux front – I tried an Ubuntu distro 6 months ago. It was a pain in the butt. I’ve got better things to do than endlessly tinker with an OS. I'm happily running 64-bit Vista these days - life is good.

    Open Source is GREAT for the economy Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 23/12/08 (in reply to #320119623)

    OK, so Rex mentioned "GDP" when he should have referred to "Trade Deficit". I do have some economics under my belt, and can say for certain that moving Australian schools from proprietary OSs to an Open Source OS and Open Source apps would have a SUBSTANTIAL POSITIVE IMPACT over many years on the Australian economy.

    The first effect is that the cost of the PCs for schools project (ie just that portion of KRudd's 'Education Revolution') would be approximately halved. IBM and other reputable sources confirm that Open Source can halve the total cost of ownership, and I concur. For schools, having a single 'image' that can restore ANY PC to its original state is a huge boon. With M$ approach, you need an image backup per individual PC, or else have to go through a few hour process or re-installing OS and all apps from original CDs (if you can still find them) and certain numbers printed on original packaging (if you can still find those). Plus there are the costs for apps etc, and all-up I think 50% is about the right figure, and like IBM and others, I don't think one can put any greater precision on it.

    That lessens the government spend, or conversely allows other stimulus packages to be expended in other areas of the economy. In the main, the major portion of the stimulus removed is the foreign payments portion (ie that amount which was only going to stimulate the US not Oz economy).

    The bigger downstream effect is that when these high school students move out into the workforce, they will be comfortable with working on open source workstations. Accordingly, by 'seeding' education with the new world open standard, we gradually reduce the foreign payments currently paid by businesses throughout Australia in terms of software licensing. This is acknowledged as a $1b+ cost to the Current Account, meaning that when the effect has fully flowed through the economy (taking some decades) we will be in a position where the annual trade deficit is lessened by about $1b, and over the next 25 years, our foreign currency holdings (more correctly net foreign debt) will be reduced by $10-20b (being the integration/summation of the effect on each year's trade deficit in the intervening years).

    So, if you are M$ or the US economy, you should WANT Australians to continue to send their cheques to Redmond, but if you are an Australian citizen or an Australian government, you should want Australia to kick the habit of proprietary foreign software at the maximum rate possible... and what you introduce into schools is the best possible starting point.

    Net Foreign Debt would decrease by $1b pa Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 23/12/08 (in reply to #320119805)

    Sorry, there was a typo above. In discussing the macroeconomic benefits of Open Souce vs Proprietary software, I said that "over the next 25 years, our foreign currency holdings (more correctly net foreign debt) will be reduced by $10-20b", But I should have spelt out that foreign currency holdings would simplistically be higher by $10-20b, but in practice, this would not all be held in notes of other country's currency, so in practice, our net foreign debt would be lessened by that amount.

    Yeah right Anonymous -- 23/12/08 (in reply to #320119805)

    IBM and other reputable sources? You mean people who have an economic interest in Open Source? Oh yeah, sorry, they are in this out of the goodness of their own hearts. Give me a break...

    HP has also claimed Open Source will save c50% Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 24/12/08 (in reply to #320119852)

    HP/Compaq has also come out claiming that use of Open Source (Linux) desktops can save as much as c50% on total cost of ownership for corporates, compared to continuing the individual licencing, individual set-up and individual back-up etc of desktops running an M$ OS.
    Now, given IBM and HP have large on-going licensing/reselling arrangements with M$, this is quite a claim.
    There are also lots of other well-informed opinions that Open Source will drive down the total cost of ownership. To support that view, I have spelled-out in another post on this particular blog the elements that comprise Total Cost of Ownership, and shown why a very significant reduction is possible with Linux vs M$ (no viruses, no individual backups, single-image installs, auto-updates for all apps, no use-by date for forced OS migration, gradual improvements rather than purchase/learning of new versions, etc). Further, WinXP is dead, so you can't use it as the basis of any comparison - you need to compare an easy-to-install Linux distro like Ubuntu to Vista. And Vista is much harder in terms of administration, due to the difficulty in modifying its program area.... and NSW DET would not have the skills to do Vista admin for 100,000+ installs.
    And no, I don't think IBM supports Open Source "out of the goodness of their own hearts"... but also I know that they do not have any direct "economic interest" in Open Source per se, as by definition, such software is owned by the world as a whole. Clearly IBM and HP see that the future is in providing Open Source based solutions, and they want to be part of that, rather than being left behind. But it is a new landscape for IBM, as IBM is used to almost as much proprietary lock-in of customers as M$... so moving into open source solutions is more 'open competition' than IBM is used to. But the market is dictating the move. These large suppliers hear that their major corporate clients want to move in that direction, so they set-up an internal capacity to assist clients with Linux-based projects. IBM is not rushing to get users off proprietary IBM operating systems, but it is wanting to be part of the future of computing, whatever that takes. It is as simple as that.

    Linux is good for Economy Miles Bradford -- 06/01/09 (in reply to #320119805)

    Yes - it is. I loaded 5 versions of Mandriva Free, Mandriva One, Mandriva PowerPack and for versions 2008 and 2009. Only "1" (one) would write consistantly to the MBR and that was the Mandriva One 2008 verison. All the rest were 20 to 30 percent loads before I would have to loade either openSuSE 10.3 or M$ XP -- to rewrite the MBR area of the hard drive. Even Ubuntu ONLY wrote 50 to 60 percent of the time and none - once the MBR aread was corrupted. I did get Open Solaris, Debian 4/5 and Fedora to effectively fix the MBR on 80 percent of the reloads. So - Linux really, in my mind - isn't all it's cracked up to be. Even the new and bold openSuSE 11.1 is going the Vista "LOOK" direction and definately has speed problems. I wouldn't recommend running openSuSE 11.1 on any machine with less balls than a 2.8Ghz...with 1Gig of RAM with 128M of Video and I don't recommend anything less than a SATA2 at 10K RPM. On machines less than 2.8Ghz - openSuSE 10.3, XP, Ubuntu 8.04 are pretty much all equal and test out great on 1.6 to 2.4 Gig machines with 512 meg RAM, WD 80 Gig 7200 RPM hard drive and 64 meg RAM. So - Basically what I'm saying here is that "Technology" is now finding it's way to cut the quevos off Linux as for its reputation that it'll run on anything...which is now not the case with the new kernel 26.27.xx. I believe Linux has found the wall in this marathon...if you know what I'm saying. So like M$ back in the day - I see Linux forcing the market to start buying new and more powerful machines and new types of switches and routers since it seems Linux is not keeping up with communications technology. Just about everything Linux has in communications is old hack. Most WiFi doesn't even pretend to work...and then only half as well as M$. I spend 16 hours a day for weeks on end testing this stuff out - and so far - performance wise - M$ wins 70% of the time. Here's what I would recommend Linux for:
    1) Cheap and worth every penny you spend.
    2) Solid Internet surfer.
    3) Solid Server for Web, Files, SQL and VoIP.
    4) Any Office environment.
    5) Harder to learn Graphics and Animation
    6) Harder to learn Programming.
    7) Harder to do Movies and Sound.
    8) Harder to Spend Lots of Money on great programs.

    Here's what I'd use M$ for:
    1) Cheap and worth every penny you spend.
    2) Solid Internet surfer.
    3) Solid Server for Web, Files, SQL and VoIP.
    4) Any Office environment.
    5) Easy to learn Graphics and Animation
    6) Easy to learn Programming.
    7) Easy to do Movies and Sound.
    8) Easy to Spend Lots of Money on great programs.

    So - what do you want?

    Do you time on your hands? Then use Linux.

    If you have lots of money in your hands - then use M$.

    I can do any computer job with either.
    I have medium amounts of money so I use Linux for my Servers.
    Control of my Network Security with Windows 2003 and Active Directory.
    XP (NOT VISTA) for my desktops because I have a lot of programs that I can't get in the Linux forms.
    Linux for most of my Internet Surfing and Downloading...it's way more virus proof.

    um. right Tony but... Anonymous -- 06/12/08

    um. right Tony but... i can honestly say that trying to use office 2007 vs an older office requires retraining. On a side not i don't like office 2007, but that is a different issue.

    The point is that once the foss (free and open source software) is put in place, after the system has been carefully designed then it should not cost the same as a windows network.

    Why ? well it has already been raised. Malware is only part of the cost in maintaining a windows system.

    The current education is application focused where it would be learning focused. In year 10 my computer class amounted to playing with macromedia flash, sonic sound something and video editing using some old dodgy program. Now if i been taught web site design, creation /html, some programming and other basic theories and practices instead of applications then i feel i would have benefited a lot more.

    oh and Anonymous -- 06/12/08 (in reply to #320118120)

    oh and applications cost more to train staff to do and student licenses then a plain text editor and some html tags.

    No issue on FOSS from me, but DET do. Tony Searl -- 07/12/08 (in reply to #320118120)

    Exactly why DET NSW are still on Office 2003, the cost of "upskilling" 50,000 plus staff to 2007 was considered too onerous.
    Of course FOSS is cheaper, thats why ICT DET want it, but they have a multitude of bigger picture costly staff training issues and other DET restraints working against them.
    This is a mainly techie forum perspective, not a wider view of what DET also have to consider being the huge beaurocracy they are. These two disparate views need to converge more.

    ICT DET Glen -- 10/12/08 (in reply to #320118232)

    If NSW DET ICT skills are anything like Vic Deet ICT skills then any training now for whatever they choose would be good.

    Who really cares? Anonymous -- 06/12/08

    As a student of a NSW gvt. school, I've seen first hand the **** they throw at us. Giving us linux would be so awesome. Finally breaking from the Microsoft bullshit.
    I really got tired of using internet explorer instead of firefox. ;_;

    Much to learn my young apprentice Mel Sommersberg -- 13/12/08 (in reply to #320118127)

    As a student you still have much to learn by the sounds of it. School is a place for education, not playing with toys.

    Mel Sommersberg = Boring, Predictable, Wrong Anonymous -- 17/12/08 (in reply to #320118805)

    Patronising the student's comments above do you no service. Your comments are ill-informed and often incorrect, and frankly, tiresome and predictable. I wonder if you work for Microsoft.

    The student wanted to use Firefox instead of IE. He's a smart guy. If you refer to the ACID3 scores, which rank the browsers in terms of their adherence to standards and their ability to actually render web pages as their author intended, you would get the following results:

    1st: Google Chrome = 79%
    2nd: Apple Safari = 75%
    3rd: Firefox = 71%
    4th: IE7 = 14%

    and before you get over-excited, IE8 beta only scores 21%.

    The browser IS the OS, and Microsoft's products, frankly, aren't up to scratch.

    Oh, and I can think of 100's of industries where Windows is NOT the first choice of platform - Film Editing, Photography, Web Design, Hosting, Science and Mathematics, 3D....etc.etc.

    Surely, if you are issuing a tender, it is smart to keep all options open, Linux, Windows and Mac.

    low-cost laptops to every senior public school student in NSW Anonymous -- 08/12/08

    My son is finishing year 11 this year and moving to year 12 next year, and was told by his school that his year 12 for 2009 will not get one of these Laptops. Is there some sort of cutoff ???

    Yes, sloth is the natural cut-off Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118250)

    The PCs for NSW senior school students is for ALL students, just like the Chatswood-Parramatta rail link is for all residents, and the NW Metro is for all residents... oops, sorry those projects were cancelled after many years of announcement and re-announcement fanfare. Now all Federally-funded projects are being targeted at only Labor voting or swing Federal electorates. So re-check you AEC electoral boundaries to see if you are still eligible. It is a flow-on from how Howard managed to turn Sydney Airport's primary take-off direction around from over-water (safest) to over-residents, so that the bulk of all noise and air pollution could be shifted from Liberal electorates to Labor ones.
    On a more serious note, inertia in the system means the project will take years, not months to for DET to implement, so by June09, they will have worked out that giving a Yr12 student a new 'toy' so close to the HSC will only hinder not help. That's my prediction! If they'd wanted to help or do it promptly, they'd have cut NSW government out of the loop, and simply done national deals (like Portugal and Brazil) and issued tenders for commercial suppliers to have them available to pick-up from known depots in capital cities or towns, pre-loaded with Linux and all the apps as determined by that state's education department (or a COAG committee of all states' education departments working towards a national curriculum). NSW DET will have its hands full just getting the wireless access and up-stream ADSL1/2 feeds ready. I bet it will add $400 per laptop for NSW DET to touch them... and Premier Rees suggestion that the costs climb from $500ea for just the laptop to $2300ea 'all-up' confirms he too agrees with me.

    Windoze Anonymous -- 08/12/08

    What is Windows? Never heard of the stuff. I learnt to calculate using a Texas instruments calculator...I still cannot get the economy to add up on my Sanyo calculator.

    Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) should determine Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 08/12/08

    Some commentators have noted that NSW DET is struggling with older M$ software roll-outs and the associated re-training needed.

    The issue of Linux vs Proprietary should be based on Total Cost of Ownership (TCO), estimated over 5+ years, without any bias based on prior commitments or prior training provided, due to the fact that the sheer volume of new CPUs involved swamps everything that came before it.

    So let's look at TCO:

    1. Malware/Spyware - Clearly Linux has that beat, and one needs to assume about 1-3 days per year per M$ OS for scanning, updating, cleaning, restoring... and arguably more with school kids, as they visit more dubious sites than most office workers.

    2. Application Purchase - here Linux wins hands-down, and people forget just how many copies of expensive software is actually bought by schools... but you can't do much with just an OS by itself!

    3. Application Set-up - Again, clicking to install a new app off a menu list (Linux) beats the hell out of purchasing CD-ROMs and going through licensing gyrations to install/verify, keying in licensee names and details and requiring on-line validation.

    4. OS & Application Update - the paradigm for OpenSource is very different here, as proprietary developers have a financial interest in allowing what you bought and installed to 'go stale', as that way you'll be eager to buy the next/better version in a few years. Conversely, OpenSource apps are updated every fortnight/month to include the best new features, as there is simply no point in holding off. Linux wins over M$ in ease of updates, but one needs to allow about 50% more 'update downloads' - which are only say 20% of total traffic. But it is far better productivity to 'buy' such extra bandwidth (negligible extra cost), than to have staff applying CDs to each PC by hand for the installation of a new proprietary application.

    5. Application Re-Training - when a proprietary software provider is trying to induce you to purchase the next non-free upgrade, they usually change the 'look and feel' significantly, in order to justify the upgrade cost (eg Vista vs XP interface). But this CAUSES extra costs, as you have to keep re-learning application interfaces, even if you only use the application infrequently. So again, Linux wins on this measure.

    6. Re-format/Re-build - Every now and then a hard disk crash, virus/worm infestation etc will cause a PC to require a complete re-install of the OS and the relevant applications. Arguably, as Linux does not suffer virus/worms, this is far less frequent than with an M$ OS. But when it does need to be done, with Linux an 'image copy' single DVD-R of the 'standard' NSW DET machine can be copied onto the hard drive in a single step. With M$, one needs to go to original CDs of both the OS (to get the right licence number) and each of the major applications (Office, Photoshop, etc) to re-install. All up, a complete re-installation can take a half-day - and that assumes that the original disks can still be found. The difference is inherent in the requirement to verify individual licence numbering 'by product by computer', whereas with Linux, there is simply no licensing to worry about, so it doesn't matter that every computer's hard disk contents are an identical copy of every other computer's hard disk. It is impossible to refute this fact when considering total cost of ownership.

    In summary, on any TCO analysis, Linux saves 'heaps' compared to any proprietary approach. In the same ZDnet issue is the story "IBM's 'Microsoft-free' desktop saves '50%' on costs"... so even IBM is claiming "to save you something more than 50 per cent of your total costs" with its Linux (and thin-client) approach.

    The ONLY downside is:
    7. Teacher/Assistant Training - initially, over just the first year, this would be lower with M$ compared to Linux. Some teachers would need to become familiar with Linux, whereas they have only had to deal with Windows thus far. But a simple Ubuntu/K

    Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) continued Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118273)

    Sorry, my earlier post working through all items in a 'Total Cost of Ownership' comparison was truncated.
    {continuing} But a simple Ubuntu/Kubuntu type Linux installation should be so robust that the teachers and teachers aid need know very little about it while they find their feet. A week's use of such a system, and you end up learning the large number of relatively small variations between all apps and their proprietary equivalents.

    Students should be encouraged to back up their document/user area files to a $10 USB memory stick. And just one person at each school would need to learn how to do the 'reset' - loading a single DVD-R that then automatically runs to completion.

    However, I suspect that with Linux the students would become far more self-sufficient and learn the right script themselves to first backup their data, and then restore from a friend's PC and then put their own data back... thereby avoiding even going to a teachers assistant to have the harsher reset performed for them.

    All up, I don't think that any existing preference to the prior OS should outweigh the considerable benefits of the new OS - one owned and developed by the world-wide community.

    Remember, software is like a parachute - it's only of assistance if it is open!

    giving laptops to students. Anonymous -- 08/12/08

    it will be the student's lappy. not an asset of the school, so let the child/parent decide what goes on it.
    From Day 1 they will anyway.

    Oh for a separate market in Operating Systems! Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 08/12/08 (in reply to #320118295)

    Anonymous suggested "Let the child/parent decide what [software] goes on it".

    There are three problems with this approach:

    1. You Lose Economy of Scale in Support.
    If everyone 'did their own thing', DET could not possibly support the laptops, or hope to have much school-related use for them. Parents would be left paying for techs to do home visits and one-on-one support, at huge cost. Indeed schools should be wary when such laptops arrive back at school, not knowing how much malware is on them ready to spread to the other laptops.

    2. It Pretends there is a Separate Market in OSs.
    Our very weak watch-puppy in competition areas, the ACCC has never had the guts to make findings against multiple-convicted-felon M$ like the US and EU competition watch-dogs have done. So in the USA you can buy a Dell pre-loaded with Ubuntu, but in Australia, Dell offers ONLY 'forced bundling' of a Microsoft operating system. Indeed, virtually all hardware manufacturers in Australia (certainly all at retail level) offer ONLY a forced bundling of ONLY M$ product. It is contrary to The Trade Practices Act (1974 Cwlth) to misuse market power in one market to achieve forced bundling. But the regulators in Canberra have been asleep for a decade or longer. It used to be argued that everyone needed an OS anyway, so why not allow bundling? But now many have upgraded from one PC running WinXP to new hardware, still happy to stay with WinXP. But they are in effect forced to purchase an extra copy of WinXP. Ask the retailer how much you will save if he cuts the WinXP OS out of the package, as you will use your existing WinXP licence, or Linux. He will tell you it does not affect the price at all... so this is truly a distorted market... purportedly "free" with all makes of hardware and expensive otherwise - all with a significantly anti-competitive result... especially the requiring that it MUST be bundled, to lessen the migration rate to Linux.

    3. If you Were to Buy Proprietary OS, You Lose Economy of Scale.
    The final reason is that if you WERE to buy a proprietary OS (does not apply to Linux as it's free), then having every laptop user make their own arrangements would lose economy of scale. If NSW DET does the buying, presumably you get a good anti-virus thrown in (as you'll need one), a full suite of office products and a 1:5 ratio of other design software etc to run on the proprietary OS, as the alternative free/open OS comes will ALL its apps for free.

    And Let's Keep in Mind that XP is Officially 'Dead' Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 08/12/08

    Much of the debate is around an easy/intuitive Linux distribution like Ubuntu vs WindowsXP. The benefits of WinXP being that existing teachers and teachers aids already have experience with WinXP.

    However, that is a flawed comparison, as M$ has confirmed that WinXP is officially unsupported. Yes, M$ still reluctantly ships WinXP, PROVIDED the hardware manufacturer guarantees the specs of the hardware are not sufficient to ever run Vista. But isn't this just such perverse logic. Vendors will be offering out-dated chipsets and the restriction of not accepting more than 1GB of RAM, just to meet M$' requirements to use only 'intentionally knobbled' hardware, so they can offer WinXP... in the knowledge that no large user like NSW DET would want to take on the change to Vista. The reasons to not change to Vista are (a) it is a separate major headache, to be considered separately to meeting the Rudd requirements for an education revolution; (b) With Windows7 just around the corner, you'd have rocks in your head to do a major deployment right now; and (c) One should re-compare Ubuntu etc again in 2009 for their then-status vis-a-vis Windows7, before making any commitment to Windows7.

    But for all those reasons to not go with Vista right now, is it worth accepting knobbled hardware just to get WinXP - a product whose demise is already passed?

    And once you accept that WinXP is dead, you come to realise that the Australian Computer Magazine cover headline that 'Ubuntu is a Vista Killer' is true. So if training all the users for WinXP is flawed, and training for Vista is harder and more expensive than Ubuntu, perhaps Open Source Linux IS the right answer!

    laptops? Anonymous -- 08/12/08

    will year 12 of the year 2009 be recieving these laptops?

    for them to study ?

    or will they skip this grade ?

    could someone please fill me in

    Linux netbooks for schools Anonymous -- 08/12/08

    As a long time linux user, I welcome the idea of linux powered netbooks for schools. The freedom from virii and the ability to lock the netbooks down will make these devices easy for the schools to manage.

    There is also the advantage that once these kids realise that linux is easy the use will spread. Also the idea that open source can produce really high quality software will also become part of the norm.

    Finally everything is about the network and any machine with good security, low power requirements and a good browser will provide the user with access to the internet and all the services they could need.

    Linux offers all that and more with no DRM, no EULA, no Ballmer (the dancing idiot) and total freedom (as in free speech!

    What the Observer -- 09/12/08 (in reply to #320118311)

    hell are you talking about? What a load of bollocks! Free speech because of your OS choice? How do you make that link?

    ...and if Linux based netbooks are so great and easy to use why do they get sent back to the manufacturer at four times the rate of Windows based devices?

    http://apcmag.com/xp_leads_linux_in_the_netbook_stakes.htm

    Fear is the key Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118369)

    People are afraid of what they don't know. Also, the Eee PC has outsold every computer ever in the small amount of time it has been available. There are in fact more of them out there than any companies notebook in the history of computing.

    Think about that & then re-ask the question to yourself & perhaps you can answer it too!

    Uh-huh Observer -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118628)

    so .... you can't make the link between free speech and OS choice? Can you? What bulldust.

    I admire your passion, but despair at how deluded you are.

    Deluded Anonymous -- 05/01/09 (in reply to #320118709)

    Simple mate - one OS restricts you and the other allows you to do what you want. You are just another MS fanboy

    what the Anonymous -- 05/01/09 (in reply to #320118369)

    I am talking as free to do what ever you want with it not the "free" that you get with say Adobe reader. I am free to modify it, share it, use it on whatever system I want. MS want to totally lock you and I you like that go for it. I dgas

    Ballmer (the dancing idiot) Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118311)

    I love this comment. I always referred to him as Steve Im-gonna-F#c&ing-Kill-Google, Balmy Ballmer but I also love yours.

    How true! How embarrassing! How the monkeys, especially those at Google must be laughing.

    Garunteed tiresome Win vs Linux arguments aside Anonymous -- 08/12/08

    I've yet to see a compelling argument as to why a Linux (not the only OSS consideration on the table) distro can't work at a level comparative to Windows.

    The idea students will somehow be disadvantaged by using linux and OSS because it's "not used in industry" could only be applicable if you're teaching applications instead of concepts. If schools are doing that, we've got worse problems than choosing software.

    It's hard to imagine a Linux solution being accepted. It's been done in some Australian private schools, and quite a few overseas, but for those making the decision a barely functional and insecure XP install could be considered a 'safer' option (for the one who decides) than Linux.

    Seriously - why bother spending extra money to innovate, then implement an 8 year old solution which already has its SECOND replacement on the way?

    An opportunity for the other school hardware Anonymous -- 09/12/08

    Once these new netbooks are rolled out that will probably make available a lot of older desktop machines at the schools. They are probably outdated and underpowered (to run vista). So once the school gets the hang of its linux netbooks it can roll out linux to all the other machines in the school. Savings will also flow from from dumping licenses and keeping the old fleet running.

    Windows or Linux Dennis -- 09/12/08

    Does it really matter on how, where, what to get and learn, why not just treat it as a idea, you get the idea first, then you can practice, at least you got something to play with, not every family are rich enough to computers even thou its very common, for Windows, why not just embedded it like the terminal version, for Linux why not just limited an environment for better administration ?

    If you want everything to be uniform, why not just let them use in school ? and concern after school ? or even if you are going to send the whole package deal, why not let those netbook connect only back to school and do school work ?

    Windows or Linux Dominic -- 10/12/08 (in reply to #320118365)

    Linux !, it's about time government start to promote freedom of choice when they are spending money. Only government can stop the monopoly, and they sould !. Let a new generation of graduates take their linux skills to the future workplace.

    Isn't it a cost issue? Craig Dennis -- 10/12/08

    This shouldn't be an argument about Windows v Linux or MS Office v OpenOffice. It should be about selecting the appropriate functionality within the constraints of the available budget.

    Regardless of the technology debate, it seems clear that cost is a key driver for the project. By now, I think that a lot of people recognise that the initial purchase price is only part of the story.

    Australian Project & Consulting Services (http://www.apcsit.com.au) is a supplier to the Victorian Government and we were the Official IT Project Management Provider to the Melbourne 2006 Commonweath Games.

    Our experience, and particularly with the Games, suggests that dramatic cost savings can be made provided that exhaustive planning and preparatory work is undertaken at the outset of the project. This means that the organisation develops a thorough understanding of it's requirements - down to the finest detail. This includes logistical planning - ideally no school should need to be visited twice for installation or implementation.

    If you invest time - and money - up front to achieve these goals, the outcome will be delivered in a predictable manner (ie: on time and on budget) and the quality of the system and service delivery will be substantially better.

    No, it's NOT just about COST Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 23/12/08 (in reply to #320118530)

    Craig Dennis made the point "It should be about selecting the appropriate functionality within the constraints of the available budget."

    I can see why, as a project manager, he looks at cost (including downstream costs), but it does go deeper. M$ will price their products at zero if needs be to get your kids hooked. They know that the majority of kids taught on M$ will be users for life. And they know that people converted to Linux generally don't come back. So M$ can afford to charge business licensees a fortune, while cross-subsidising educational users. But we still need to ask ourselves is it good for Australia, and is teaching a proprietary solution what we ought to be teaching?

    Only two industries call customers 'users' Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 24/12/08 (in reply to #320119806)

    The joke that only drug pushers and software companies call their customers 'users' is worth remembering here. Offering proprietary software solutions at low cost into schools is (but for the health differences) not that different in terms of pure marketing incentives to the loose analogy of heroin users always getting their first fix for free. At least with Open Source, the software is ALWAYS free - the price is not increased after you become hooked on the product.
    [I fully acknowledge that there are no negative health outcomes arising from proprietary software, but I could not think of any suitable analogies other than free packets of cigarettes being offered to young people in developing countries, which has the same non-equivalence when comparing to 'initially-free later-expensive' software.]

    Ultimately KIDS Rex Alfie Lee -- 11/12/08

    Just because the staff member only knows Windoze doesn't mean the kids can't work it out. They will because their minds work far more quickly than the old dozers who are making the decisions. Give them Linux & tell them the name of the important programs & how to log on. That is all kids need to know because they can work it out themselves

    Oh Dear Steve Fillimore -- 11/12/08 (in reply to #320118629)

    A very professional approach Rex. have you every worked in the industry or are you just bashing away at the keyboard when you get home from school?

    Oh Stevie! Rex Alfie Lee -- 19/12/08 (in reply to #320118643)

    Why yes, I have as a matter of fact. I used to program in Cobol Stevie. Do you know what Cobol is Stevie? Then I moved to Java. Do you know what Java is Stevie or is it only J+ or .Not to you? I prefer to not work in those systems because I believe they will recede & hopefully die, soon.

    Perhaps not Java but Linux, yes. It's not perfect but it's better open. Of course there's always Ruby.

    Ahhh Steve Fillimore -- 19/12/08 (in reply to #320119516)

    ..so you just bash away at the keyboard at work!!

    Reactive Employers Anonymous -- 11/12/08

    To all those who have commented to the tune of "if you teach them a linux computer, they will be unskilled for the workplace, I won't employ a non-windows user".

    What a pile of short-sighted, narrow-minded faeces. That same sort of mentality is why my industry (accounting - public practice) is facing a huge worker shortage. Employers who lack the ability to keep up with trends, let alone lead them aren't worth employees considering.

    If I said "I use linux" and an employer said to me "yeah, but do you know how to use windows?", I'd get up and leave immediately, because it is reflective of a degenerative, reactive mind. Not a pro-active one.

    On another point, my wife is a complete luddite, and despite this, has managed quite comfortably to be ofay with both OS's (but preferring ubuntu considerably).

    And with my employer's hat on, if I had a kid in front of me that wasn't capable of switching with relative ease, I'd tell him to go get a trade, because he/she clearly lacks the skill set and thought processes to do my line of work. Someone intellectually adaptable is more important.

    Possible solution for reducing TCO and maximising resources Anonymous -- 12/12/08

    Readers may find the following pertinent:

    The Australian Federal and State governments have announced programmes to give school kids laptops. However, there are ongoing cost and deployment issues, which are causing these programmes to be delayed or stopped. In response to this, Cybersource has prepared a free, Linux-based solution, for use by Australian Schools, which makes it possible to bring one million new laptops to Australian school children.

    "It's a simple proposition; we've prepared an open solution which delivers the best-possible value to education for netbook or laptop roll-outs," suggested Con Zymaris, CEO of long-running Linux firm Cybersource. "Our proposal is to use low-cost netbooks, allocating one per two students, with the students using 'live' Linux USB keys to store their operating system, applications and school-work. This results in a major reduction in installation and maintenance complexity, but still allows the students flexibility in how they use their netbooks and applications."

    The solution, in summary:

    * Each pair of students is provided with a new netbook (ie, Eee PC, Aspire One, Dell Mini 9, etc. style laptop).

    * Each individual student is given a 2-4GB USB key, which has a self-booting Linux OS and all the core apps they need. This greatly reduces ongoing IT tech support costs as the software is easy to 'install', update and 'revive' - simply remove the old or non-functioning USB key, pop in the new one, and reboot.

    * The students store all their data on the USB key, and sync that data with a central server. They can access this data through a web- interface, ie, the school Intranet or Learning Management System (eg, Moodle or LAMS, both if which are free software.)

    * The school's existing wireless/wired network is used for connectivity, so no additional cabling is needed. The school's existing power sockets are used to recharge the netbooks; no additional power resources are needed.

    * If *anything* goes wrong with the operating system or applications, the student's USB key is re-imaged with a fresh OS/apps copy, and their data is fetched from the central Intranet server.
    If the student forgets their USB key at home, they can be issued a temporary one, and their 'data' is always available via the school's file-store Intranet.

    * The USB system and application image comes bundled with hundreds of free and open source applications (eg, Firefox, OpenOffice.org etc), for all manner of school and educational requirements: Maths, Science, Geography, Music theory, Multimedia and Languages.

    * No Linux or additional systems expertise is needed, as the technology to create (ie, image) new USB drives with a Linux distribution exists and is very easy to use. Therefore, there would be no issues with current IT staff not having the knowledge needed to deploy and support these new netbooks.

    * The students can use their USB key on any of the school-supplied netbooks, or, for that matter, any other PC they may have at school, home or in the local library.

    "Our expectation is that this programme can be established for a cost of $500 per unit (ie, for 2 students sharing), or $1000 per 4 students. This includes all hardware and software costs. All that remains is the effort of having designated teaching staff image the USB keys, which is a trivial, one-click exercise," said Zymaris.

    "We've seen approaches similar to this one work in other countries. For instance, in France, 175,000 'live' Linux USB keys were supplied to Parisian school children[1]. It's clear that with the approach we've outlined above, it is feasible to ensure that every single school child in Australia has access to an educational netbook/laptop for much of the school week, and to have that laptop filled with hundreds of useful educational software applications, all within the budget offered by the Government. Only Linux and Open Source software can deliver on such a promise," continued Zymaris.

    "We must

    Follow on from previous post Anonymous -- 12/12/08

    (Previous post was truncated; copied to this post)

    "We must also provide our response to what we've been informed is the key criticism against using Linux in school education, namely that it's 'not Microsoft', and thus somehow wont prepare students for the real world. The reality is that students are not likely to be using the same versions of Microsoft's products, years later, when they enter industry; Microsoft's software changes, sometimes dramatically. Therefore, learning computing on Linux, Firefox and OpenOffice.org is not a dis-advantage. In fact, there's no guarantee that students will be using a Windows desktop in 5-10 years time; it's therefore important that schools teach concepts, such as word-processing and spreadsheets, rather than specific products, such as Word and Excel. By contrast, we don't teach our kids Addison-Wesley calculus or Monsanto chemistry - we teach them calculus and chemistry. Similarly, we shouldn't be teaching them just Microsoft computing, but computing. And the best way to ensure that they understand a concept, is to teach them more than one form of it. This is what this proposal can achieve - we are future-proofing Australian school-children's education," concluded Zymaris.

    ###

    [1] Paris region students to get Open Source mobile office on USB key

    http://osor.eu/news/fr-paris-region-students-to-get-open-source-mobile

    Windbag Anonymous -- 14/12/08 (in reply to #320118747)

    Geez Con - you are a windbag aren't ya?

    Windbag Anonymous Rex Alfie Lee -- 19/12/08 (in reply to #320118875)

    Do you actually have anything to say or are you just a contradiction on these pages without any point?

    Netbooks OS Patrick Sinz -- 12/12/08

    In 81 my MOE (in france) tried to bambouzle my university into buying bull machines running GCOS MOD400 because "this is what the market wants and needs"...
    We choose this "geek" os called Unix (and saw our budget slashed for the offence)...
    So four years latter GCOS was discontinued, and our students where the only ones who had the "hot new skills"...

    So if students are using Linux now and have the opportunity at least for the most brilliant ones to understand how it really works, they will be much better prepared for the future to come (in 8 to 12 years) than people that are trained to be cheeps and "pure 'users'"

    Linux in Schools Anonymous -- 13/12/08

    The best thing about Linux based tools, beside their obvious value, is that they are community centric - built by communities of people rather than monolithic corporations - kids would be better leaving the value of what can be produced by a community and collaborating with others - that is a positive future.

    is that a fair question Anonymous -- 17/12/08

    I cant think of a single plus for choosing windows.

    anyone can use gnu/linux these days. i currently board with a non tech savy family, and by family i mean extended family. When i first arrived i was constantly fixing computers. i got to the point where i was so frustrated i just put ubuntu on them all. Ive only had to fix one trivial problem since then, and it was fixed over ssh.

    linux is custimizable, flexable, and usable. any student given a laptop running linux will be able to run with it from the get go, and the more tech oriented students will play around with it and learn how a computer really works. if you want to create a bunch of tech savy bunch of kids, dont give them windows. i have to quote one of my lectures here "the only thing bill gates can attributed to is convincing the general public that computing in general is unstable". for those industry people saying we want people who can use windows, anyone who understands how to use a computer running gnu/linux can revert to windows. after all windows is designed so idiots can use it. the second thing to say is prehaps its time that industry grew up and ended its dependency on microsofts **** products. im not neccesarly referring to current industry, they are more or less already trapped in the microsoft trap. my hope would be that the future generation of entrepreneurs and leaders would adopt free software.

    Then expect free software Anonymous -- 28/12/08 (in reply to #320119375)

    So who out of these children will want to become programmers if there is no future in it because their will be no money in it.

    There are very few contributors (out of the total programmer pool) who actually contribute to the free software, so a whole industry will start going down the drain because it is suddenly immoral to pay for software.

    Cause = no pay for programmers. Effect = no programmers.

    Mark Shuttleworth's ABSOLUTE commitment to Education Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 23/12/08

    I think some of the states' departments of education ought read the opinions of Mark Shuttleworth, the founder of Canonical (distributor of Ubuntu) on the issue of providing an open education. The interview is at www.linux-mag.com/id/6385 and it proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Canonical is dedicated to delivering education for all, without impediments etc.

    One great bit (partial citation) in the interview is:
    Shuttleworth: I remember very clearly encountering a lot of resistance from the local department of education around the idea of putting Linux into schools, because they were building a very similar sort of capability, but all around Windows. They saw it as very threatening to have essentially a � well, it wasn�t private sector � but a non-government entity sort of proselytizing and promoting an alternative approach. And wow, we encountered a tremendous amount of resistance.

    What happened there was that � and they had some really valid points � they were concerned about skills development and whether there would be adequate skills to maintain and support those platforms. They were concerned about whether the skills that were created when you teach people on open source, whether those skills are relevant for folks that may have to spend their working lives working with proprietary tools. Are you actually helping them if you�re giving them, potentially, the wrong set of skills?

    I think we managed to address most of their concerns, and they found that their expectations of � they thought that they could get proprietary technologies free of charge, because they�d sort of been promised that. It turned out that actually they couldn�t, and they came around to the realization that the free and open source approach was in fact very bankable. It had a lot of integrity to it, you knew exactly where you stood. You could build and make your investments around it, and know what you were going to get. You weren�t counting on a particular deal with a particular person for a particular company. So that sort of sorted out that situation.

    I�ve had folks very upset that they should be given computers that they should be given computers that didn�t have the software they were expecting on them. Conversely, we had teachers saying, �Wow, we had no idea that there�s this enormous universe of amazing tools. We can teach so much more on these platforms than we would have been able to teach had Windows and a word processor. So there�s always a full spectrum of responses when you get involved with people who have different expectations and different ideas about what they need.

    Linux Magazine: I found that in the library as well. There was a lot less resistance, interestingly, from the patrons, who just saw the bottom line of what they could do. Keeping a public Windows computer clean is an evil, evil thing.

    Mark Shuttleworth: I bet! It�s a nightmare.

    Why the laptop plan will fail Anonymous -- 27/12/08

    When I saw the words, "(only $500), I was amazed at the ignorance of the government. Do they realise that there are much cheaper netbooks on the market today? The only need for a custom designed laptop is so that they can be locked onto the DET system, which is very inefficient, and very restrictive. The way to go is for the government to invest it's money on cheap desktop computers, which it is able to install at school. Not only are they more powerful, but they can be used by future generations. Already, quad core computers have prices as low as $700.
    Those netbooks, although they can be 'kept' by students after they leave school, are still locked onto the DET system, restricting them of all privileges.
    Furthermore, not all families are able to afford the $500 for a laptop (unless the government subsidies them)
    This laptop plan is doomed to fail, just like the internet filter plan. The government is so technologically illiterate. Why don't they see all these negative aspects?
    Sure, it will help students become better at computers, but the remedy is to allow non restrictive operating systems and software.

    Skills Building (LMC Compliance) Grahame Jordna -- 27/12/08

    My kids were brought up using Linux.

    Strangely each one of them are the best at computing in their primary school, can type the fastest and have better skills in MS Office than most of the kids at their school.

    Exposure to Linux has given them a better understanding of computing overall. My oldest son uses Linux, Mac and Windows without any issues whatsoever. The others' also are good at each.

    I personally find that Windows/Mac only users are computer morons only able to understand a computer in the terms that it is presented to them by the respective GUI control panel etc.

    Using applications are something different. My daughter uses the GIMP like a pro. The GIMP is available on Linux,Mac,Windows ( LMC Compliant ) however programs like Photoshop have their choice weather to be LMC compliant or not. I am sure that if there is a good audience it will become true soon enough.

    I think that Con explains quite clearly above that Linux is extremely easy to deploy and to maintain. It is cost effective stable and actually easy to use.

    What is the problem?

    DET is like a home network x 20,000 Anonymous -- 28/12/08

    Some of you seem to think that just because it is big (1.4 million users), DET is well managed.

    Half the computers are not even able to be managed by policy. There are all versions of Macs and PCs. No one has the time to properly sort out the core apps. Each school area basically looks after and buys its own computers. Some outsource maintenance. Each school has someone who looks after its computers.

    Rollouts of anything standard requires every computer to have some hands on work done. (I know, I was involved with a rollout).

    It is really a joke to hear all the comments about what would be best when whatever is chosen will only be a part of the puzzle and you all have no idea of what that puzzle is.

    DET would be better off making their own distribution of Linux (I actually prefer Windows) to a couple of standardised images, and fixing up and virtualising their back-end apps (so they can actually test them first).

    If you want lots of money to stop going down the drain, lobby your schools and politicians to start sorting out the waste and get the systems working properly.

    Regarding why staff did not go Gmail. It may be that they didn't want to give up the rich Outlook client, a repeat of a previous attempt to change the mail client for staff.

    The real problem is that no matter which OS is finally chosen, a lot of disruption is going to happen to lots of students - any change always does.

    linux joe -- 29/12/08

    my kids all hav a recon laptops 4 home use n 4 her school work, they hav windows on them so they will already kow how 2 use windows when they leave school as i am in full agreement that all children should know how 2 use a computer. With them gettin a linux all that it means is that they will now b able 2 use both types of programs n when they leave school they can put on their resume` that they know more then 1 type of program. 4 most chldren these day they hav a pc or laptops at home and they learn real fast how 2 use them, as they come with windows the kids hav a good idea on what they are doin with them as they do their homework and essays on them. with them gettin notebooks they will really only hav space 4 their school work on them, they will still b using their other pc,s or laptops at home still 4 their games, facebook, music and other things that they cant do on their school laptops. and as it is when they children do get their notebooks they will only b usin them 4 school.

    need me info Confused -- 30/12/08

    I would like more info about these computers. I have ask some teachers about them and they informed me that it will take 2 to 3 year before the students get them so no one is getting them next year. It is getting to confusing now with some sayng one thing and other the complete opposite. Or could it be that the country schools aren't getting them till then

    Born yesterday ? Anonymous -- 02/01/09

    Mel, how long have you been following this industry ?

    " Define programming? C#, VB.NET and J# are just as relevant to a budding programmer as C/C++, Python and Perl, infact moreso as the former run a lot faster. "

    >> How would C# be faster than C or C++ with the crap that M$ built into it ?

    >> And what makes .Net and the latest incarnation of VB "where's the code?" dev environment any better than Powerbuilder or faster than other similar RAD envs ?

    " That said all of the aformentioned programming languages have their avdantages (sic) which is why they are all popular.

    I will add that 90% of the students who will receive laptops from the Government will do no more than write essays on them. They'll have no interest at all in becoming IT workers, loading computers with operating systems........ "

    >> etc etc, yes Mel, and neither should they. So then, what do you think that they will need

    " Office is the worlds most powerful office software suite by far. "

    >> This bloated turd for ? They won't use 50% of OpenOffice or similar let alone Office. Hey, they could use your much lauded Notepad I guess.

    " Yes it has imitators and some of them come close but not close enough. With all this in mind your whole post has completely evaded the point. "

    >> Again with the pot calling the kettle black, aleady.......

    " I'd hardly call referring to C# a closet mentality. .NET is the fastest rising star in the programming world and the fact that the open source world is busting a gut to make it work on Linux "

    >> oh really ? so no outlandish generalisations from you then. Care to name the top 3 major orgs running to do this ? .Net will fail and get rebranded again and the other languages with a true value proposition will continue to be used. Being a closed shop will not help in the future, it is the way of ye olden times, of railroad barons and oil tycoons of the US 19th century if anything.

    " proves it and C# is one of the most popular languages that works in the .NET environment. "

    >> Well, derr, it worrks with .Net. When Kernahan and Ritchie wrote C it was a perfectly useful language, and it would still be in wider use than C# today, especially if you count C++.

    Seriously - " the most popular language that works in the .NET environment " - do you read what you write? What sort of of recommendation is that, let alone what it means to a kid writing an essay on a low spec laptop ?

    " In a lot of cases Microsoft's software was around before unelected gronks formed all these standards groups. "

    >> Well, really, the whole point is that MS takes other peoples property (or worse, public property, the intellectual property that many individuals and groups freely give to the world community fr the good of us all) then subsumes it and screws it up, so it can charge for it. ISO "gronks" are here to protect the world from the likes of Bill and Uncle Fester Ballmer. Gates didn't write BASIC, he didn't write DOS (though he sold it to IBM before he had even paid the 50 grand out that it cost him) He basically stole Windows from the os/2 and os/386 dev teams at IBM, he stole the spreadsheet and the word processor, oh how I could go on. And don't tell me that M$ pre-dates the ISO organisation, that would really top it off.

    " Given that Microsoft software is present on more computers than any competing equivalent, by default this makes Microsoft software an elected standard in its own right. "

    >> So you should be speaking Mandarin right now, should you ? How many Chinese people "elected" to speak Mandarin ?

    " It's fashionable to hate Microsoft and bag their products but let's face facts Graeme, your stance is so 1995 - get over it. "

    >> No, Microsoft is so 1975, and the sooner we all ignore them and get on with things the better.

    Sorry to drive the thread even more off-topic folks. It's supposed to be about the children, won't somebody please think of the children ?

    Blah Mel Sommersberg -- 16/01/09 (in reply to #320120212)

    "Sorry to drive the thread even more off-topic folks. It's supposed to be about the children, won't somebody please think of the children ?"

    Those posting anonymously are always in the habit of driving threads off-topic. With that in mind I have nothing to say beyond what I've already said. My case still stands.

    Linux or M$ - Good for Australia Miles Bradford -- 06/01/09

    Linux is good for Economy!
    Linux is good for Australia!
    I'm American in North America.

    Yes, Linux has now become very good for the economy and in two different ways - really, it is.

    Let's talk about needing your kids to learn real computer science and having to learn and understand the basics of writing to and breaking the MBR - then fixing it:

    I loaded 5 versions of Mandriva Free, Mandriva One, Mandriva PowerPack and for versions 2008 and 2009. Only "1" (one) would write consistantly to the MBR and that was the Mandriva One 2008 verison. It wrote 9 of 10 times. All the rest were 2 to 3 (out of 10 times) before I would have to load either openSuSE 10.3 or M$ XP -- to rewrite the MBR area of the hard drive. Even Ubuntu ONLY wrote 50 to 60 percent of the time and none - once the MBR aread was corrupted. I did get Open Solaris,
    Debian 4/5 and Fedora to effectively fix the MBR on 80 percent of the reloads.

    Lesson 1 - Learn the differences between the MBR and the Root Partition loading and when to use or not use a DOS Debug (Assembly
    Language) to move sectors around or delete embedded viruses or re-write a MBR. Both M$ and Linux use this.

    Lesson 2 - How to go straight into learning the Disk Operating systems of the World and how to go right into Program BASIC/C/C++ from the Assembly Language you've just learned to use on your hard drive and how all Programming Languages are based on how Memory is
    written to - and that includes the hard drive as a form of memory.

    So - Linux really, in my mind - isn't all it's cracked up to be.

    Like back in the good ole' days when new and young computer users had to learn why and how they had to do the different levels of
    formating and load and reload Windows 3.1, Windows 95 and NT3.5/NT4 -- now they can do the same with Linux/UNIX.

    Okay -- Let's talk about the Claims Against "M$": Speed and Performance is the BIG talk nowadays.

    Yep - Even the new and bold openSuSE 11.1 is going the M$ Vista "LOOK" direction and definately has speed problems.

    I wouldn't recommend running openSuSE 11.1 on any machine with less balls than a 2.8Ghz (Dualcore if you have it)...with 1Gig of RAM with 128M of Video and I don't recommend anything less than a SATA2 at 10K RPM. 7200 RPM sucks and 5400 RPM just kills you.

    On machines less than 2.8Ghz - openSuSE 10.3, XP, Ubuntu 8.04 are fine and pretty much all equal and test out great on 1.6 to 2.4 Gig
    machines with 512 meg RAM, WD 80 Gig 7200 RPM hard drive and 64 meg RAM.

    Basically what I'm saying here is that "Technology" is now finding it's way to cut the quevos off Linux as for its reputation that it'll run on anything...which is now not the case with the new kernel 26.27.xx.

    I believe Linux has found the wall in this marathon...if you know what I'm saying. Like M$ back in the day - I see Linux forcing the market to start buying new and more powerful machines and new types of switches and routers since it seems Linux is not keeping
    up with communications technology. This is "Great" for techs and the economy. Put people to work and build more industry to supply more macines.

    Oh - Just about everything Linux has in communications is old hack. Most Linux WiFi doesn't even pretend to work...and then only half as well as M$ - which is crap, too.

    I have spent 16 hours a day for weeks on end testing on all these issues - and so far - performance wise - overall M$ wins 70% of the time. I'll take anyone to task on this.

    Here's what I would recommend Linux for:

    1) Cheap and worth every penny you spend.
    2) Solid Internet surfer.
    3) Solid Server for Web, Files, SQL and VoIP.
    4) Any Office environment.
    5) Harder to learn Graphics and Animation
    6) Harder to learn Programming.
    7) Harder to do Movies and Sound.
    8) Harder to Spend Lots of Money on great programs.

    Here's what I'd use M$ for:

    1) Expensive and worth every penny you spend if you can.
    2) Solid Internet surfing if you are behind Linux F

    DET should exclude certain WiFi components Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 06/01/09

    IRRESPECTIVE of which OS goes on certain notebooks, NSW DET should obtain a 'statement of open source compatibility' for all major components in any tendered laptop.
    The problem is that certain WiFi hardware manufacturers like Broadcom (www.broadcom.com) who make a lot of the WiFi cards used in laptops seek to be a road-block against the widespread use of Open Source. Broadcom has refused to allow the binary driver needed to access its card being included in Linux distributions. This causes inordinate problems, much like reverting to M$' approach of getting/proving licence numbering to install a package, rather doing the total install off an 'image'. It would not hurt Broadcom in any way to allow Ubuntu and others to include the binary, as it is only of use if a Broadcom piece of hardware is encountered in the install. Broadcom do provide the drivers to M$, but won't (presently) to other OS suppliers.
    Given Broadcom (and any others in this category) elect to frustrate the use of Open Source for the
    moment, hardware including components made by such suppliers should be excluded from consideration EVEN IF the original OS to be shipped with that laptop is not Open Source. In other words NSW DET should not accept any hardware that is not 'easily' ported to Linux, given the huge rate of growth of Linux in education worldwide.
    Of course, having the laptop manufacturers go back to Broadcom and explain that Broadcom's driver licencing restrictions are excluding Broadcom-based laptops from consideration in large education tenders MIGHT just have the effect of changing Broadcom's position on the issue, even during the period of consideration of the tenders! Let's hope so.

    And the WiFi drivers under M$ don't work well either Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 07/01/09 (in reply to #320120405)

    And lest you think that I am being a bit harsh insisting that only WiFi component manufacturers who support Linux ought be short-listed, it is worth noting the huge uproad from HP laptop users at the fact that M$ keeps losing the Broadcom drivers for the WiFi chips in WinXP installs, as well as (arguably) poor hardware also contributing to the range of very poor outcomes achieved with laptop WiFi reliability.
    A good example are the user complaints on an HP-sponsored tech feedback site:
    http://h30434.www3.hp.com/psg/board/message?board.id=Internet&thread.id=129

    Why Linux Is better than Microsoft Matthew Tsang -- 10/01/09

    What better time is it for the world to switch to Linux?
    Yes, Microsoft has the majority of the market share, but seeing as students are still young, and can be shaped easily, it is time to move on to Linux. Their whole education will be centred around using Linux, instead of propitiatory software. They will learn about OpenSource and all the benefits, and once they leave school, they will advocate this, to create a world of freedom.
    The power of OpenSource software should NOT be underestimated.
    And soon, as their generation gets older, their views on OpenSource will begin to shape the economy, and the world will see a move towards Linux. It is time to change. Now is a good time.
    Mel, you do not realise the advantages. Proprietary software is not superior to OpenSource. People can improve upon the free code, and as a result, they can learn more. Education and business applications will continue to improve, as people modify the code.
    And as for your argument that Microsoft dominate the market, this is incorrect. Like many others who have posted, Linux is the preferred choice of servers. It was designed to be a server OS, and has been modified for over 20 years to suit the hardware. Now, when you look at Microsoft software, their server software has only been around for less than 10 years. The community continually improves upon Linux, in love and dedication, while Microsoft employees are driven by money.
    The stigma surrounding Microsoft is because their software costs a lot of money, and always contains bugs and defects. They constantly underdeliver.
    Why pay $400 for an operating system, if you can get Linux for free, which does EXACTLY everthing Windows does and MORE? (A lot more, actually)

    Why Linux is not better than Microsoft Mel Sommersberg -- 16/01/09 (in reply to #320120718)

    "The power of OpenSource software should NOT be underestimated."

    It shouldn't be considered the one and only though either. Also, just becuase something is free doesn't make it open source and just because something is packaged with source code doesn't make it free. You Linux kiddies often get the two mixed up and assume that both mean the same thing. There are several open source Linux dsitributions which you have to pay to use.

    "Mel, you do not realise the advantages. Proprietary software is not superior to OpenSource. People can improve upon the free code, and as a result, they can learn more."

    Only if they are skilled programmers, which the vast majority of people aren't. If you believe that every single Linux user will be able to patch their own machines after a new quick and dirty virus like Fizzer breaks out then you are kidding yourself.

    "And as for your argument that Microsoft dominate the market, this is incorrect. Like many others who have posted, Linux is the preferred choice of servers."

    Linux is more often used to replace older Unix-like operating systems like FreeBSD and OpenBSD rather than Windows. In addition the most popular server hardware/software combination in the world is a HP DL380 running a flavour of Windows. The reason that Linux is more popular as a software choice is because it is more compatible with the applications installed on the server, not because of any advantage you have highlighted. If you are running a server with FreeBSD installed and want to use a more recently developed Unix-like operating system and you are running processes like a web or mail server then your costs would be lower by using Linux instead of Windows. But if you are running a Windows server with those processes then your costs for a shift to Linux would be much higher. Labour costs alone would nail your budget. Then there is the reprogramming and recoding time.

    " Linux is the preferred choice of servers. It was designed to be a server OS, and has been modified for over 20 years to suit the hardware. Now, when you look at Microsoft software, their server software has only been around for less than 10 years."

    Accoding to Wikipedia articles, the first Linux kernel was released in 1991. Windows NT3.5 was released in 1994. It is now 2009. Three years doesn't make much of a difference after that amount of time - the point is moot because development success doesn't go on age.

    "The community continually improves upon Linux, in love and dedication, while Microsoft employees are driven by money.
    The stigma surrounding Microsoft is because their software costs a lot of money, and always contains bugs and defects. They constantly underdeliver."

    I installed the trial of Windows 7 in 22 minutes. How long does it take to install Linux after stuffing around with partition sizes and the like only to find out that your video and sound card (and in some cases your mouse and touchpad) still require attention after the install is complete?

    "Why pay $400 for an operating system, if you can get Linux for free, which does EXACTLY everthing Windows does and MORE?"

    As mentioned before, not all Linux distributions are free. Linux doesn't do everything Windows does either. Both operating systems have their pros and cons. Linux is more changable and adaptable and better suited to those who want to custom-build an OS to exacting requirements. Windows is far better for software availability and hardware compatibility. As for stability, both are equally as stable as each other.

    Why Linux is not better than Microsoft Matthew Tsang -- 24/01/09 (in reply to #320121093)

    "How long does it take to install Linux after stuffing around with partition sizes and the like only to find out that your video and sound card (and in some cases your mouse and touchpad) still require attention after the install is complete? "
    Well, you install a Linux version, such as Ubuntu, then once it's up and running in 20 minutes, you download Envy and voila! Your graphics card is working with all the bells and whistles that surpasses Microsoft and Macs. And touchpad? My Wacom graphics tablet works straight out of the box. And the mouse? Every single button, including the macro keys work, without the drivers. My mouse's scroll button does not work under Windows Vista.
    OpenSource software, such as Linux, is continually being improved. Just a few months ago, the last distribution of Ubuntu didn't have a graphics tablet support. It will get to the point where such software will surpass proprietary software.
    When you first install Microsoft onto a machine, you have to go through multiple disks of drivers, and download graphic drivers, tablet drivers etc. It's no different to Linux. In addition, I find that installing drivers for Linux is faster. It took me an hour to install Windows Catalyst ATI graphics driver.

    And yes, not all Linux distributions are free. But not all people use those non-free versions too. The majority of Linux distros are free. Take a look at the app managers in Linux. A lot of fully functional software applications are listed in there.

    "As for stability, both are equally as stable as each other."
    I would have to disagree here. I dual boot my computer with Windows Vista and Ubuntu. Vista always refuses to run fast, and frequently freezes. Ubuntu works straight on startup, really smooth.

    "It shouldn't be considered the one and only though either. Also, just becuase something is free doesn't make it open source and just because something is packaged with source code doesn't make it free."
    Of course every proficient computer user understands it. Free software is provided to the user for free. Freeware allows the user to modify it and change it as they wish. OpenSource is designed for improvement. It is 'free' in the sense that the editor has to acknowledge the creator. The GNU license was designed for software improvement.

    Ummm... it works? Michael T -- 13/02/09 (in reply to #320121608)

    I found the same thing with Ubuntu. We've installed Ubuntu on a system that we built from parts left over from other computers we had in the past. Most of the parts in this machine don't even have Windows XP drivers - the lastest drivers are for Windows 95. We also installed the Windows 7 Beta on this system, so we can boot either operating system. The main difference between the two, is that Ubunto runs alot faster, and takes full advantage of all the hardware in the system - it got drivers for all the old hardware. Windows 7 Beta on the other hand couldn't get drivers (we use a USB sound card instead of the card that's in the machine and all games have to run in direct3d). However, on a side note, I will say that I am extremely impressed with the Windows 7 Beta so far. This system is running a 1.3 Ghz AMD Duron and only has 512 MB of RAM, but does most basic things very quickly.

    Its funny - NO to Linux and its MS *NOT* M$ Anonymous -- 16/01/09

    Its so easy to scan through these comments and stop reading as soon as you see M$ as if its some kind of novel thing. It tell everyone straight away to *STOP READING THIS CRAP* and move on, as its only the ranting for a Linux fanboy.

    As for using Linux or Windows for the schools, saying linux is free so should be used is just plain wrong and stupid.

    How dare you make it more difficult for those kids to get jobs after they leave school.
    The fact is, 100% (+- .01%) of all business's use Windows and MS Office.

    When you apply for a job, you are not asked if you can use a wordprocessor or a spreadsheet, you are asked if you can use excel and MS Word, powerpoint, access and MS Windows.

    MYOB for accounting, AutoCAD for CAD C# and VBS for power users and programmers.

    Linux has it place, mabey for servers or some embedded applications, but not in our schools.

    Our schools are not a political tool or a vehicle for you to push FOSS products.

    Office and windows for that matter have education discounts for their products.

    Now just accept that linux is not up to the job, it will not teach the kids what they need to know in the real world, and it should not be used to push your barrow.

    Being free is *NOT* the end game, does not make it better its the wrong tool for the job free or not.

    Also the Australian government if you do any CES courses or for example NEIS courses you will be required to use spreadsheets with alot of VB embedded code.

    less than 1% of desktops use linux, and that is ALL distro's.

    If you like linux good for you, but get over it, as far as quality and functionality goes Windows has it all over you.

    And get over your pathalogical hatred for Microsoft calling it M$ just makes you well look stupid.

    Usage of Linux (and Unix, even) in the real world Anonymous -- 24/01/09 (in reply to #320121084)

    "Now just accept that linux is not up to the job, it will not teach the kids what they need to know in the real world, and it should not be used to push your barrow. "

    Ok, currently, there is no doubt that Windows/Microsoft products are the majority in the 'real world'. At uni, most of the systems use Windows, except a few macs here and there in private faculty labs, linux in maths and of course, linux in computing.

    The thing is, whether or not everyone likes it, the current computing students are going to be the IT/technical support staff and software developers of the future. Ramble your way into any computing lecture, and you see the laptops open: mac, mac, mac, dell, dell, mac, dell, hp, mac, mac, dell, dell, dell. You get what I mean. And anything not mac is using some distro of linux, for over 80% of people. The ones that don't, and I'm not trying to prejudice these guys or something, but they either aren't in the top range of students, or they're asking to get flamed. Post once in our forums: "You're trying to support Windows in a Computing forum? Are you really asking to get flamed?" It was a friendly-ish type of thing, and the person posting is arguably the top computer science student in our year, and the person who "supported windows" (it was by accident, actually) is somewhere up there too.

    So, in the future, it's either macs (based on unix), or linux. Exposing kids to new things isn't bad, is it?

    I think this sums it all... Anonymous -- 24/01/09

    www.xkcd.net/386/

    everyone feels this way here.

    imagine if linux was install on every pc that you buy instead of windows? how would all these comments change?

    I'm thinking from a different paradigm Alan Ng -- 31/01/09

    If my following comments make people feel like that I am buttering up someone, please pardon me as I am only trying to encourage a constructive forum.
    Graeme, you certainly seem to be very knowledgeable, and support your arguments with other sources of information. I appreciate that and agree that is better in fostering the flow of substantiated information. However, I am curious about how much you know about Australia when you are all the way away in US.
    Without entering into the existing debate of better standards or lower cost, I would suggest another way of choosing the OS to be loaded onto the laptops. I believe that it is unwise for the public to hand great deal of power to one person/organisation, as we know from history, it has created a lot of trouble for humanity when one person/organisation do what they want (e.g. Hitler). This is also the very essence of democracy where power is rotated to ensure no one dominates. I have no doubt that Microsoft has done humanity some good, and it is by no means a small one. However, I have problem to let Microsoft control all of us in what we do and how we think. Just like learning a language, it dictates how you think (and that's why saving endangered language has became the priority gradually), so is the choice of OS would dictate how you do things.
    From my point of view, Microsoft hasn't done something terrible to the end user (apart from charging us amount of money that we may not have to spend) to warrants its demise or need to be demolished, but who can guarantee that they won't?
    I believe it's always better in the long run to leave the power in the hands of the people. Microsoft hasn't done something evil (at least to my knowledge), but if we stick to the current track, when it does, it would really hurt.
    FYI, I use Windows mostly, although I did try to migrate to Linux but was unsuccessful, simply because I couldn't find the time to do that. I hope my fellow Australians wouldn't be pushed into the corner that I am at at the moment.

    Cirriculum should be addressed first Michael T -- 13/02/09

    Before they even begin to decide what type of operating system they should be running, they really should be looking at the school cirriculum and how these laptops will actually be used.

    There has been compulsory computer courses for most students from a very young age in most state cirriculums for quite a while now.

    NSW probably shouldn't be acting alone on this. It should be part of a national cirriculum.

    When we teach computer usage, exactly what do we want to teach? For the most part, alot of students will only ever need a word processor, perhaps a presentation program such as Powerpoint, and a spreadsheeting program.

    For those purposes, Open Office is fine. It would not take long to retrain someone from Open Office to Microsoft Office. Furthermore, most public libraries and alot of university libraries not only have Microsoft Office installed, but have a full library of learning resources to learn how to use them too, all available to the public.

    It's not like when you go from Open to Microsoft that you need to learn how to create a new document, load and save again. Many of the controls are exactly the same. It's only the finer details - the things which get used the least - which people might not instantly pick up. And usually, that is solved by either searching the 'Help' function, or doing a Google search.

    But if we want to start teaching kids things like 'how to install new hardware', then operating system becomes a little more important. If you're installing new hardware under Windows, it's basically idiot proof these days - there's basically nothing to learn. Under Linux (I haven't had to install any new hardware under Unbunto, the build we're using, because my brother built the machine) it can range from as simple as Windows to extremely complex and annoying commands.

    If we want kids to start setting up networks and servers, then the differences between Operating Systems becomes more important.

    So the choice of operating system shouldn't become just a financial decision. It should also be a decision on the learning opportunities we provide these students. This also makes the choice of distribution important too.

    Do we want them to learn how to install a network drive through the command prompt in Linux? Or do we just want a cheap, user friendly OS so they can use a Word Processor, Spreadsheet, E-Mail and Calender program?

    Linux is Growing Alan Brady -- 24/02/09

    Windows is so 20th century. Linux is gaining ground daily. And gaining, and gaining and gaining. Why would some of those leaving comments believe it's in anybody's interest to handicap those who want to advance into the future by saddling them with an operating system that's clearly past its sell-by date?

    Vista was a dud. There are some favorable comments concerning 7, but there were concerning Vista, too.

    It's highly likely that Microsoft will gain a small benefit amongst many consumers in that a lot of the hardware will finally catch up to the bloat in Vista when they relabel it as Windows 7 release. But businesses aren't so easily fooled any more. Many have already replaced their backroom servers with linux. A fair number of those have moved to open source on the desktop, either in the form of some applications, or entire desktops outright. As the experience increases, showing companies and users they have none of the reasosn to fear linux that Microsoft and Windows users have been claiming for years, the resistance to further deployment crumbles.

    Windows is the past. May it RIP. The future belongs to others.

    In the immediate future, it appears linux will be the winner. For how long? Nobody knows. What will replace it? Nobody can answer that either. But I can say with certainty the world won't being going backward to Windows again.

    Linux in schools Roy Culley -- 24/02/09

    This is an excellent idea. Not only will it save a small fortune on license fees Linux is an excellent learning environment. There is more to computing than surfing the web, using spreadsheets, word processors, etc (all available under Linux). Linux will let those with an enquiring mind explore many facets of computing, networking, ...

    Netbooks... Anonymous -- 24/02/09

    ...cease to be netbooks when you put a moving part in them; this being, hard disk drives. At which point, they become subnotes and even then, the barest minimum to get xp running (what with the extra paraphernalia such as AV) to any sort of usability. The whole idea of netbooks is their small size and, by virtue of the fact that there /are/ no moving parts, their inherent ruggedness. Believe me when I tell you, kids let loose with laptops are not a good idea to begin with, mine have cost me thousands in hardware and cosmetic repairs to their gear - until I said "Enough is enough!" and went bought them a netbook each. Since Christmas, I've not had to replace a screen or a hard drive or glue a bezel back together... those 900's are tough little buggers!

    As for Linux, I say: we don't need another generation of lock-in and vendor dependence. Bring in a system that the kids can actually learn something on, instead of the point-n-drool UI that's turned fifteen years of computer users into mindless cashcows for Redmond.

    Linux= a square peg in a round hole. Anonymous -- 24/02/09

    Unless they are planning on becoming programmers Linux is a complete waste of time. The world runs Windows and that is what should be taught. The idea of school is to learn and study. The computer is just another tool to facilitate that process. Why throw a monkey wrench like Linux into the students already busy day?

    Linux=a square peg in a round hole Miles Bradford -- 23/03/09 (in reply to #320124042)

    yes indeed -- I elaborated on this fact 4 articles down. These Linux developers who are creating these broken Linux programs with KDE4.2 are especially fooling people. Those who are very well schooled in the craft of programming and have spent most every minute of their life moments on earth doing programming and Linux or Unix -- have created this GUI called KDE 4.x.x and a lot of it is broken and not working at all - but, the people are being spoofed because it looks pretty. Now - if it were as stable as KDE 3.5.x.x I wouldn't be saying this -- but, I'm really pissed that even I got spoofed this time and I've been doing Linux since 1993. From SuSE 7.3 to SuSE 9.3 a person couldn't even get a mouse to work properly without have a dozen mouse driver loads to find one that might work half the time. I think the world has been spoofed by these new and upcoming young geeks who think it's cool to lie to the populace. Well, then you want to talk about updates --- we can do that, too...because Linux update machines suck. Oh - and you want to talk about system security - Linux has absolutely nothing on the market that even comes close to matching Microsoft's Active Directory and NOW with Windows Server 2008 it's gong to be another 10 years before the Linux Geek Developers even come close. If you want Linux to become as good as Windows - then it should be given to Microsoft. Linux Developers DO NOT even try to give the people what they are asked to...and the younger they get the worst they get. Mandriva 2008 Powerpack does't even write to the MBR properly and if you switch the machine on and off too many times as in crashing it - it will come to a point of having to completely reload because Linux doesn't have a very good rebuild software like Windows. In fact - Linux has a MBR restore program that has been built to fix the MBR problem - and even it doesn't work worth a hoot "MOST" of the time. Let's see - oh - Let's talk about Sector Overwriting with Linux. I'm so sick of Linux overwriting my hard drives. Every time Linux crashes now due to an MBR, Sector overwrite or something like that - I have gotten to the point of just grabbing my Windows Utilities Disk and fixing the problems with Windows 98. In fact - much of the Sector Writing of the Drives being done with Linux is still based on Windows 95 and NOT Windows 2000 or even Windows NT4. Everything about computers is based on how well binary is written either to the Hard Drive or to the Memory or DVD/CD or Floppy if you have a really old machine. Everything and I mean Everything about computers is based on "Writing" as there is NO SUCH THING as deleting and erasing. Thats all a bunch of bull. So if Linux has a tendency to write like crap - then it's gong to run like crap. When I first started using Slackware - I sort of believe in Linux - but, since I've learned how unreliable Linux is in Crashes - I have no faith whatsoever and I can prove this beyond a doubt. Just give me a Linux box and Windows box and I'll stand there and crash them until I have a winner -- and I've already done this a dozen times and Windows my friends is always the winner. Do the test yourselves. It doesn't take a rocket science degree to crash a machine by turning it off by pulling the plug. What else do Linux Developers want to talk about. Oh - Linux can put the Kernel in phones that do nothing.

    Excellent article Alex Terry Porter -- 26/02/09

    In an age of the Microsoft monopoly monoculture with all the attendent viruses, worms, trojans, forced upgrades and high cost of ownership, it's great to see an article like yours positively accessing Linux.

    Kids want to be more than secretaries, accountants or marketing droids.

    Kids want to be enginners, electronics technicians, scientists, programmers, web designers, chemists and anything else you can imagine.

    Linux gives them the tools they need and for Free, to use at school, at home or even at work. They can even share with their friends without breaking the law.

    Linux gives kids a vibrant computer community with an emphasis on sharing,
    and learning, which are worthy ideals in todays world I think.

    Educators, our kids need to learn about technology, not Microsoft Word, about creativity, not Microsoft Excell, and about innovation, not Microsoft Powerpoint.

    Lets give every school kid a computer with Linux, instead of making five kids take turns at one computer with Microsoft Windows!

    Windows vs non-Windows Miles Bradford -- 23/03/09

    Don't put the kids at odds with learning and having fun in school. Linux is for "un-cool" kids at school and Windows are for those who become our leaders. If you put Linux in the school systems - you will do what Linux Hackers tell you to do and then you won't ask them anymore questions after they give you a days worth of excuses why they can do stuff on a Linux box and You Can't!!! I've already been there and done that with students in computer classes...and Linux loses every time. When a student has to spend 4 hours or more in a classroom learning how to get the right driver off the Internet for a video card and then to find out that because they got if from the wrong site - and it doesn't work -- that;'s doing it the Linux Hackers way. A Linux Hacker Developer will make you stupid or kill your appetite for computers altogether to make themselves look smart. You will not get a product that out of the box -- just works! Ever wonder why there's not many MacIntosh hackers and users anymore? MacIntosh used to be the way Linux is today and you had to do it MacIntosh's way PERIOD!!! Linux Hitlers haven't overcome that "Do it MY way" syndrome yet. Microsoft is going to squash the Linux GPL world because Microsoft's people are a lot smarter than Linux Hacker Developers. Linux Developers can't even create an Active Directory System that controls everything and Microsoft has for many years. For all that Linux is worth - DON'T PUT LINUX IN SCHOOLS!!

    Career vs Learning Curve Miles Bradford -- 23/03/09

    Just like Linux Hackers tell you about people spending their precious time learning Word, Excel and Access for ever - well, if you install Linux (any flavor) that's what you'll be doing for the next 10 years. Think about it - 10 years just trying to figure out how to your multimedia working correctly. And so far - the only Linux flavors that have the new OpenOffice3.0 are those that are mixing and matching KDE3.5xx with KDE4.xx and a lot of the programs in these distros are broken and if you put them under the control of an Microsoft Windows Active Directory system for security - you're in for hell to pay because Microsoft will lock your Linux down so tight you won't see the light of day for having to stay head down in the groove trying to make Linux work properly under Windows. And for all you wannabe scientists, engineers and such - if you want to learn your crafts - get Windows because Microsoft has got deals with other companies for the softwares you need for learning and Linux does not. The only craft that goes with Linux is becoming a programmer or some sort of computer scientist....but, not everyone wants to become a computer scientist or programmer or game player and that is where the world has been mislead to. No - if you want to just go to work in your craft - then get an OS that already has your Learning Tools built in or for and get Microsoft Windows....NOT a farce like Linux. Some Linux distros can't even properly write to the MBR yet and if you don't know what I'm talking about - then you for sure need to stick with Windows -- an OS that will write properly to the MBR each and everytime.

    Windows Offers Much Much More Miles Bradford -- 23/03/09

    than Linux!!! FACT!!! The persons writing about learning Word, Excel and Access are NOT being truthful about the whole picture. In Windows you can take Word, Excel and Access and use VB for Applicatins and then apply it API's and such and build it into MS SQL database and if you're real good you'll wind up using a blend of Visual Basic and all the Office Suite to build a complete and very functional web presence or your company or whoever - and in the process you'll make a nice living doing it. Yes - Apache was once the undisputed King of the Internet Servers - but, there's much much more to the web systems these days. If you are a somewhat average webpage builder and a somewhat "okay" web builder - then Windows is for you especially. You can professional websites with Windows much easier than you'll ever do it with Linux. If you want to do the same thing with Linux - then you're better put on your programmer gloves and get to learning PHP, Perl, Python, C++ and Java real good because you're not going to produce the kinds of websites I'm talking about wth Linux without about 50 percent more training than you need with Windows -- and it won't be near as fun. In Windows you'll see huge results quickly. In Linux you'll see them kinds of results in maybe 2 or 3 years of training...for one -- theirs no one to train you in Linux to do Windows type websites. Once upon a time some geeks tried doing it and teaching Windows Level Training for Linux - but, because Linux is so freaking hard to get a grasp of - most of these programs have since gone under from lack of funds and interest. Just say NO to putting Linux in Schools except for those programming labs where it might be useful. Let's be real here. Most all your blogs against Windows on the Internet are by diehard Linux Users...but, let the general population pick - you'll see them pick Windows.

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