Under the Microscope by Alex Serpo

A calculated look at the latest trends within technology products.

64-bit Windows: It's time to get serious

Posted by Alex Serpo @ 9:53 48 comments

What do Windows 7 and Windows NT have in common? Despite being separated by 16 years, they're both available as 32-bit operating systems; and it's time for Microsoft to move on.

Despite the existence of 64-bit Windows 7 (along with 64-bit Vista and XP), consumers and businesses are continuing to adopt 32-bit versions of Windows, and with good reason. Many hardware vendors still aren't releasing 64-bit drivers, and businesses may want to hang onto a 32-bit OS for maximum compatibility.

It's time Redmond started looking forward rather than backward.

Unfortunately, this continued inertia will be to our peril. A continued desire to hang onto 32-bit for compatibility means hardware vendors have an excuse to continue to only release 32-bit drivers and applications, and the process goes around and around.

This loop leaves businesses in a trap where they will want to use a 32-bit system to ensure maximum compatibility, but get stuck with the physical RAM limitation of roughly 4GB that comes from a 32-bit OS.

It is well known that 32-bit operating systems can only address two to the power of 32 bytes of maximum system memory (4,294MB). On the other hand 64-bit systems can address two to the power of 64 bytes of maximum memory (18,446,744,073,709MB, commonly quoted in practical terms as 16 billion gigabytes).

Let's put this equation another way. In early 2008, IDC estimated the total amount of all storage globally to be 281 billion gigabytes. So theoretically if you could convert all the storage on the planet to RAM, a single classroom of 20 64-bit machines could address it all.

Programs optimised for 64-bit systems should hypothetically also be faster, as processes such as encryption can take advantage of the extra address space.

This means that the transition to 64-bit operating systems is a one time hurdle for the IT community. 64-bit should service the needs of IT for at least 20 years.

Every box builder knows that a cheap way to quickly upgrade the performance of a system (particularly for multitasking) is to drop in a little extra RAM, which is dirt cheap compared to other system components like CPUs and GPUs.

Apple is already ahead of the curve on this one. The company's latest version of OS X 10.5 (Leopard) ships 64-bit as standard.

Action on this issue needs to come from Microsoft's side. Users are keen to adopt 64-bit operating systems, but Microsoft needs to use its massive market muscle and demand that all products designed to work with Windows 7 be 64-bit compatible. It's time Redmond started looking forward rather than backward.

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Talkback 48 comments

    Not everyone has a fat budget Alex Mel Sommersberg -- 08/01/09

    I use four rack servers which I purchased second hand and each one is loaded with Windows 2000 Advanced Server. As this is a hobby more than anything else (I run web, mail, DNS and a few other services) I do not make any money out of the exercise.

    Whilst Windows 2000 will very soon be ten years old and I agree that it is getting a bit long in the tooth it still serves me very well and it still issued with patches by Microsoft. Is there a compelling reason for me to upgrade whilst an old operating system is still supported by Microsoft's updates? Given the massive cost of four new enterprise-grade machines and the necessary 64 bit operating systems and application software I think not.

    I must admit though, I'd love to do it and would if a Lotto win would come my way. As for business - a lot of them probably think the same way I do, as their budgets are not up to the task and most would have policies in place prohibiting the option of outsourcing.

    It's not about upgrading John Van Der Loo -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120522)

    It's not about the upgrading of your old stuff - nor is it suggested that MS should stop supporting current 32-bit products.

    This is about moving forward, so that consumers end up getting better products. If MS moves forward and switches 32 and 64-bit, so that 64-bit Windows becomes it's main product and 32-bit it's legacy for older hardware, then it will force hardware vendors to release (better) 64-bit drivers for their products.

    In the end, everyone benefits from faster, more robust software and hardware.

    Moving forward Mel Sommersberg -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120530)

    "It's not about the upgrading of your old stuff - nor is it suggested that MS should stop supporting current 32-bit products."

    It obviously is about upgrading since Microsoft already make 64 bit versions of Windows. Neither is a "main" product aside from cunsumer wishes to retain 32 bit for the time being and as I said, the main reasons for this are 1. cost and 2. convenience.

    "In the end, everyone benefits from faster, more robust software and hardware."

    Yes, I agree, but only if every entity is able to afford it. For me, "moving forward" would cost about $60,000 - money I simply don't have for the purpose I use servers for.

    Upgrade Costs Jarad Clouston -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120547)

    In your case upgrading from 2000 to 2008 x64 will be costy, but unless you are running 5 servers it will be less than $60,000.

    I upgrade from 2003 to 2008 for less than $800 per system in hardware costs and the result was a few very good systems.

    The main target for x64 upgrade is business. An d in Business a $60k upgrade is expected. That will get servers without paying for security.
    This has not changed, the upgrade from 2000 to 2003 was around the same cost when I did them. Yet x64 was not a question then.

    This is the cost of progress, not the cost of x64

    Home users can upgrade to x64 for a very low cost, it is all about looking at the market.

    Upgrade costs Mel Sommersberg -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120551)

    Sorry, I should have mentioned it before but the boxes I have are a few years old now - all G2 Compaq DL360/380s. I purchased them from Macquarie Bank via Ebay. Unfortunately these are only suitable for Win32. The earliest version of a DL series suitable for Win64 (I think) would be either a G2 with AMD processors or a G4 with Intel processors.

    I can see Alex's point with the necessity to convert to 64 bit but for it to work but it has to happen on a large scale so that prices can come down and compatibility is more widespread. Little ol' me will be stuck with what I ahve for at least another 12 months though.

    You would save money by going x64 Anonymous -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120522)

    A modern server, Win2k8 and HyperV or free VMWare Server would run all your current servers and more. In one box. With one hand tied behind its back. Blindfolded. Asleep, even.
    Microsoft has broad shoulders. I say move to 64 bit, cop the slings and arrows for a few years and then we all move on. Think of the cost that we are all paying because of double development for both 32 and 64 bit, right across the Windows ecosystem. We need to bite the bullet. Think of the planet!

    To save you first have to spend Mel Sommersberg -- 09/01/09 (in reply to #320120582)

    Even then I'd still be up for around $15,000 and that is still money I don't have. Yes, I am only talking about my own situation but I am quite sure that I am not the only person that hosts their own web and mail services. In fact I know I am not.

    Virtualisation isn't the be-all and end-all either. It is still possible for a glitch to crash and burn the uptime of the whole machine and send it into a freefall, requiring a reboot which means until the problem is discovered, each and every service is unavailable. Whilst some of you have raised good points you also talk as if anyone that owns high-end equipment has money to burn - they don't. I am very lucky to possess such equipment in the first place.

    You do raise a good point with regard to the environment. Whilst I am sure that my comparitivly small installation would not be making a big mark on what people now call carbon footprint it is a desire of mine to go solar. That won't happen tomorrow but it will probably take priority over a complete replacement of servers and operating systems.

    x64 Upgrade costs Jarad Clouston -- 09/01/09 (in reply to #320120641)

    Hi Mel,

    Now that you have advised on the hardware that you are running I think we can all see the hold back here. I did use a DL360 to test the server 08 beta but this was so slow that it became unusable.
    Eventually, we will all be forced to upgrade to x64 if we want to or not. It is only a matter of time. There are many advantages beyond performance with x64 but an entrance level server will set you back at least $2,000 or $3,500 for rack mount. even then it will only support RAID1.

    Both of the last comments about the option of VMWare are true, Myself I think VMWare is great and works wonderfully. But You will want two servers in an ESX farm so that you can fail over to the second server if the first goes down. Otherwise you do have a single point of failure. So to have a VMWare environment with a DR Failover you will need to spend over $35,000 for 2 servers - Not a great option in anyones books.

    The best situation for yourself will be to buy secondhand. SAS is only just comming onto the used systems market in the shops (or has been there for some time on eBay), This will mean it will be another 2 or 3 years before these shops are selling x64 servers. With Microsoft still releasing 32bit software you will still have support cover.

    x64 Computing is becomming more economical at a very fast rate. But at the end of the day, All I could afford to join the x64 environment at home was a desktop computer with a phenom processor to runcopy of Windows Server 2008 x64. Not the best option but it does the job.

    x64 is here to stay, I wish you all the best in been able to join the x64 evolution economically. It is something we would all look forward too.

    Have you thought of.. Anonymous -- 05/02/09 (in reply to #320120522)

    ..replacing the whole lot with a single Xserve (or even a MacPro? Far less admin, unix base, 8 cores, plenty of RAM. Comparing your present setup with FOUR 64-bit systems is just not realistic or necessary.

    64bit Windows BMerry -- 08/01/09

    I agree Alex and the sooner MS drops 32bit versions the better for all of us, btw Windows Server 7 is going to be 64bit only and the current version of Exchange (07?) is already 64bit only.
    I'm running Vista Enterprise 64bit at home and all workstations here at work will have it from now on!

    It is not only up to Microsoft.... Jarad Clouston -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120524)

    It is not just Microsoft that need to play the game. Alot of Business realy on applications that are not deployed in x64.

    I only need 2 x32 servers, this is to run Apache and the company Antivirus (Requires Apache for Management).
    Once an x64 version of Apache is released I will be running a full Windows x64 environment

    It's time for business to move on Anonymous -- 08/01/09

    Microsoft has offered business the way forward, it is up to business to move with it.

    I fail to see how MS is at fault here. If they produced only 64 bit offerings they would be accused of not delivering what business needs and of trying to force their way on other manufacturers.

    Produce a variety of offerings and they get accused of being backward thinking.

    You state that users are keen to adopt 64-bit operating systems yet also state they have a continued desire to hang on to 32-bit for compatability. Which is it??

    I love 64-bit Vista but also have to run 32-bit for a couple of legacy applications. It is not the fault of MS that the other vendors are not making 64-bit drivers.

    Sure, MS could flex its massive market muscle but every time it does people in the industry jump on it, now it chooses not to flex that muscle, you guessed it, people in the industry jump on it.

    64bit drivers Anonymous -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120526)

    "It is not the fault of MS that the other vendors are not making 64-bit drivers."

    MS are part of the problem

    The 64bit OS will only allow the installation of "signed drivers" and on the surface i think thats a great idea.

    BUT, Microsoft charge an ongoing periodic fee of somewhere arround $500-$1000 for the driver signing.

    Not really a great incentive for a not really required 64bit OS capable hardware/software support change that works perfectly in its unsigned unMS taxed 32bit world.

    Its even arguable if this sort of security is a perfect unbreakable solution or just "snake oil".

    Prior to the Vista64 SP1 upgrade you could actually just turn off the driver signing. I expect that the there was an outcry from the hardware/software makers complaining that the $$ they paid for was some sort of con.

    Microsoft have removed that option in SP1 but have still left the F8 bootup unsigned driver load option available.

    I fully support 64bit server based operating systems and am prepared to jump whatever hoops to acheive reliablilty, including the MS way, to support its expected improvements for many users accessing multiple OS tasks.

    But, I'm now back using Vista 32 for my desktop just because everything works and i'm pretty sure that the average person doing office tasks and even the home user playing games or browsing the internet wouldn't care how many bits the computer is biteing.

    I feel the solution is to make 64bit operating systems easier in simplicity, setup, general use and then lets its natural advantages take over.

    Basically agree Anonymous -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120555)

    For servers, multimedia workstations, etc, 64bit is becoming required due to the memory typically required these days. And if it costs driver writers money to get their stuff tested, good. That it costs (cheap really = one driver programmer's pay for a day) should make the shonky writers get out of the business. After all, it is really dwarfed by the $$ of resources needed to write drivers anyway.

    However, most people are not going to need more than 4GB (W7 should be more frugal than Vista, which easily works within 4GB for most people anyway) for the typical tasks, so why should they go 64bit NOW without some COMPELLING BUSINESS reason?

    MS has always focused upon maintaining backward compatibility, because they know who pays them their bread and butter - businesses. Businesses don't want to pay fortunes out every time something new comes out, especially for 64bit with no benefit of iteself!

    I wish bloggers and posters would stop saying businesses SHOULD when those blogeers, etc, are NOT paying the bills. It just shows that those bloggers, etc, are just out of touch with the realities of business. Theoretical reasons don't count for much if they are not matched by short-term tangible benefits. Even just to think about a change costs money!

    Heard This Before Anonymous -- 09/01/09 (in reply to #320120589)

    "However, most people are not going to need more than 4GB (W7 should be more frugal than Vista, which easily works within 4GB for most people anyway) for the typical tasks, so why should they go 64bit NOW without some COMPELLING BUSINESS reason?" - Anonymous

    "640K of memory is all that anybody with a computer would ever need" - Bill Gates

    I upgrade because the new games/browser/word/excel/outlook/add_your_program_here needs more memory.

    Run Windows 3.1 with 256K of memory for all I care. *I* want my new programs to open quick and snappy, run 15 different windows at once and be able to multitask like I've become accustomed. 64-bit Windows/computing lets me do that.

    Mel can run Windows Server 2000 until he drops for all I care. 32-bit should go the way of 16-bit systems...they've seen their day and should be considered legacy.

    640k Mel Sommersberg -- 09/01/09 (in reply to #320120619)

    That phrase was uttered back in the MS DOS days when GUI was a thing of the future and back when people had no idea that computers could do the things we now require of them.

    The reason that there was a more compelling reason to jump from 16 to 32 than to jump from 32 to 64 is because 64 is not required for the functionality we will be using in the next few years. Yes 64 is faster and better but certainly not to the degree that the improvement that 32 gave us over 16.

    I don't disagree with you and I've long desired to try out a 64 bit OS on my laptop because it has a 64 bit processor on board and it's ready to go. The trouble is that HP supplied it with a 32 bit version of Windows (which I found odd) and that was probably so their prices could remain competitive with other brands that couldn't be bothered going one better. There is another issue. At the time I bought my laptop only AMD were offering processors that would support 32 bit and 64 bit applications concurrently. Since half the manufacturers only sold machines with Intel processors (which at the time were available with either 32 or 64 but not both - along with their crappy RAMBUS memory) this probably helped to stagnate early progress with a changeover to 64 bit computing.

    There is no doubt that 64 bit is here and in the next three years 64 bit machines and operating systems will hold a much larger chunk of market share. In the interim I am more likely to upgrade my laptop well before my servers and it's not because I don't want to change but because it is not economically viable. As mentioned before, if the money was there I'd spend this weekend upgrading the lot, just for the fun of it.

    Businesses - well it's a tough call. Many will struggle just hanging on to their staff during the hard times that the media keep telling us that we are heading in to. Other businesses will probably be lucky enough to continue their upgrade programmes to include a change to 64 bit operating systems.

    Turn off driver signing in Vista 64 (ultimate) Anonymous -- 20/01/09 (in reply to #320120555)

    Totally agree but any savvy users of Vista ultimate can turn off the driver signing authority by using a simple tweak to the the service and also improve the tcpip throughput speed at the same time.

    Do a bit of research and you will find the tweak and if you are lazy and just want to use non-digitally signed drivers get readydriverplus. (http://www.mydigitallife.info/2008/02/17/download-vista-tcpipsys-and-uac-auto-patcher-to-increase-tcp-connection-limit/).

    Bottom of page will give you the link...

    C'mon guys this isnt rocket science we can tweak and tune every OS to do what we want without having to complain endlessly. Just go and find the solution.

    I have been using this on my Vista Ultimate since Nov 08 with no issues.

    64bit Drivers Jarad Clouston -- 08/01/09

    I'm running Windows XP x64 Edition at home and the performance is much greater for any use than the 32bit system.
    However, using a major supplier (Gigabyte) for my AM2+ mainboard I am not able to use the SATA RAID, although drivers are supplied for this it causes XPPx64 BSOD issues due to poor programming (RAID Okay in XPPx32 and Vista x64). After 1 year I am still watching the RSS from Gigabyte and nothing has been done to admend this, no wonder business wants 32bit, this driver has been updated over 5 times for the x86 platform

    One only needs to take a look.... Anonymous -- 08/01/09

    At Microsoft's lack of 64 bit applications in order to see how serious its commitment to 64Bit architecture is.

    Microsoft's suite of Office applications are only available in 32 Bit versions. How can business take a move to 64 bit architecture seriously, when the very purveyor of the applications wont either.

    Good point, however Anonymous -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120531)

    My MS apps work on Vista 64 so it is possible to move to 64-bit and continue to run MS applications. They may not be 64-bit but at least the drivers are compatible with the environment.

    Office does not HAVE to be 64bit Patanjali -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120531)

    64bit Windows does allow each 32bit application to have 4GB (its significant advantage over 32bit versions) , but office apps rarely need the fully address space (though they sometimes seem to), even when editing multi-MB files.

    Therefore, why force apps that don't need to be 64bit?

    On the Contrary Anonymous -- 09/01/09 (in reply to #320120590)

    Office DOES need to be 64 Bit. Yes it runs under the emulation system WoW, however, for those businesses that deal with Citrix and VMWare running software in this modus operandi results in double the memory consumption and adds an extra layer of unpredictability.

    I re-iterate, why should business take 64Bit seriously, when it is evident that Microsoft don't.

    On the Contrary John Hanson -- 09/01/09 (in reply to #320120636)

    "businesses that deal with Citrix and VMWare running software in this modus operandi results in double the memory consumption"

    I run VMWare and the memory usage on the ESX server actually went down with x64 software as it was better managed, yes it allows for more memory usage but users less to do the same job.

    "adds an extra layer of unpredictability"

    Thats a cop out mate, do you really know what you are talking about?

    Hardware Vendor need to account. Anonymous -- 08/01/09

    We were considering running our new file server on 64 bit Server 2008 but were hampered by a lack of 64 bit driver support for our $20,000 plus Xerox multi-function copiers (which we have 9). So the result : stick with 32 bit Server 2008 Adv. So the hardware vendors need to produce full 64 bit support and then users will follow.

    Backwards compatibility, moving forward Alex Serpo -- 08/01/09

    Hi Everyone,

    Thanks for the great talkbacks.

    Mel -- I am pretty sure there is a 64-bit version of Windows 2000 which Microsoft will give you for free if you have a Win 2000 Licence, but I've never tried that upgrade. However finding 64-bit drivers for legacy hardware could be a real pain -- I'd be interested to know how many businesses are similarly stuck.

    BMerry -- There is definitely going to be a 32-bit version of Windows 7. I know that because my colleague Renai and I have been testing the Windows 7 beta and it's a 32-bit version. That's what inspired the blog. Also it's the "ultimate version", suggesting to me Windows 7 versioning will be similar to Vista.

    Anonymous -- There is inertia throughout the IT community on moving to 64-bit systems. Apple took leadership and implemented a system where OS X contained compatibility (virtualisation engine?) for 32-bit applications on a 64-bit OS, perhaps this is the way forward?

    http://developer.apple.com/MacOsX/64bit.html

    -- Alex.

    64 bit / 32 bit Nick Hodge -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120550)

    The biggest "issue" between Windows 64 bit vs 32 bit are the drivers, not software backward compat.

    http://www.on10.net/blogs/nhodge/x64morethan2xgreaterthan32/

    32 bit apps work ok on 64 bit Vista (like Office, etc) - in parallel with 64 bit drivers and 64 bit apps.

    With Vista, we all experienced the pain of the driver change; a part of this was requiring hardware devs to support 64 bit versions for Vista, which added pain to their dev cycles.

    Now we are seeing the other benefits of the pain of client-side 64-bit apps with Photoshop 64 on Windows. Photoshop gets to way more memory for larger image manipulation (rather than caching to disk)

    Win7 Client: 32bit and 64bit, yes.

    The inertia comes from the prevelance of laptops over the last 2 years being sub-4Gb (this has changed recently). This is partly due to Intel processor/platform choice (2007) and full-on driver support (2008) [IMHO]

    The last thing Apple needs to do is determine the Carbon vs. Cocoa 64 bit strategy :-)

    I no longer get out of bed for anything less than 64-bit

    Nick

    Vista driver changes Renai LeMay -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120554)

    hey Nick,

    re: drivers, I didn't experience any problems when I installed Vista -- and surely a lot of this is just a re-compile?

    Cheers,

    Renai

    News Editor
    ZDNet.com.au

    Vista Drivers Jarad Clouston -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120557)

    I purchased Vista the day it was released and installed Vista x64 on both my laptop and desktop only to be welcomed to driver hell.

    In the last 9 months I have not had any Vista x64 driver issues at all, but in the beginning they simply were not available, not even on Vista Ready or Vista Capable systems.

    Vista is improving as drivers are released, I still have issues sourcing XP x64 and Server 03 x64 Drivers but most of Vista is covered now. However, a way to start again, I am still having driver issues with Server 08 x64 although this is been resolved over time.

    x64 is the future, it is simply taking some hardware companies longer to catch up than others.

    64-bit Works on Linux Rex Alfie Lee -- 08/01/09

    Just exchange your operating system for a Linux version & then 64-bit is operational.

    64-bit is as advanced on Linux as is 32-bit.

    If people en masse don't want to change, how does your suggestion help? Patanjali -- 08/01/09 (in reply to #320120569)

    Seems to be more of the 'Linux will solve all problems' FUD, while ignoring the reality - most don't NEED to change to 64bit anything!

    64-bit Works on Linux John Hanson -- 09/01/09 (in reply to #320120569)

    You think you have driver issues with Windows x64 - Linux is worse.

    If you chose Linux you need to dump your old hardware and find Linux driver ready hardware.

    Sticking to Windows is much easier and makes more sense. I only perfure Linux on some times of hardware, not all

    And? Mel Sommersberg -- 11/01/09 (in reply to #320120569)

    People usually suggest changing their operating system without giving any thought to the other tasks that have to be undertaken to match the functionality of the previous installation. Again using my own situation as an example, I run IIS which supports dynamic websites powered by ASP and ASP.NET, Microsoft DNS, WS FTP Server, MailEnable mail server, Unreal IRCd chat server software, and several SQL Server and Access databases.

    As far as I am aware only one of the above applications comes available as a port to Unix-based operating systems. The rest would have to be replaced with apps like Apache, BIND and MySQL, none of which would allow a simple changeover, particularly with the websites I host would would all require reprogramming in another scripting language. Whilst it is possible to get an ASP based website to work on Linux there is little chance of it working from the time it is installed. Many things would still need changing.

    What we are talking about here is a very small installation compared to many or even most out there in the corporate world.

    The moral to the story is that not everything is as easy as it sounds and simply changing one's choice of operating system is not a five minute job at the end of the day.

    but the competition here could help joe -- 14/01/09 (in reply to #320120768)

    we're all going to need to change to 64bit eventually, but unfortunately the support for said is non-existent, I wouldnt buy a 64 Bit version of anything at the moment, purely because everything i want to run, from games to FTP servers and the like all run that much easier on 32 bit, but... if everyone was to get a decent copy of linux, a linux that comes pre-complied and just click to install, then suddenly the majority of users who the computer is nothing more than a word processor and internet majig will change to this free alternative and still be able to do everything they want, so suddenly a whole new demographic will open up that are using a 64 bit OS, app developers will release programs for this, some comp users will figure out how to install it, some won't..hopefully by this point Microsoft would of jumped on the bandwagon and gotten a solid 64 bit OS 2gether, and bingo users will migrate back to the ease that is windows, hence we return to exactly where we are now, ready to do it all again for 128...

    it is the time for forward Anonymous -- 09/01/09

    it is not easy to directly uograde to windows 64-bit version from old staff.first microsoft should stop the products which are supporting to 32-bit versions.every business wants to upgrade slowly.but directly at one time not possible.

    vikram,
    http://www.zdnet.com.au/blogs/under-the-microscope/soa/64-bit-Windows-It-s-time-to-get-serious/0,2001098126,339294129,00.htm#talkback

    If memory is the only compelling reason you justify moving to 64 bit, then you a Anonymous -- 12/01/09

    This blog post seems to totally miss the point of why moving to 64 bit is a good idea. Unfortunately, if you can only name memory as a primary reason, then you obviously aren't as informed about computer architecture as I thought you were.

    Sorry to burst your bubble Alex, but Mac OS X 10.5 only has a 32 bit kernel, even on 64 bit CPU's. While it can run 64 bit programs (albeit only as a background or console process, not in GUI mode), everything else is running 32 bit with the drawback of limiting the CPU to using 8 registers. Also, every process is limited to 4GB of virtual memory address space.

    The reason it can address more than 4GB of physical memory in 32 bit mode is due to a CPU extension Intel (and other's) implemented into their CPU's a while back: PAE.

    So yes, Microsoft could easily make 32bit Windows address more than 4GB of physical memory if they wanted to. I haven't looked at it too closely but there obviously is some compelling reason they don't.

    One big primary reason for moving to 64 bit on x86 is primary the increased registers available to processes (16 from 8). More registers mean more operations can happen within the CPU and less memory fetches.

    Actually Alex, depending on the situation sometimes moving applications to 64 bit can cause a performance hit. The primary reason for this is cache pressure (where larger data segments fill the CPU cache quicker and cause the CPU to perform more memory fetches). Not every program needs to be compiled for 64 bit, it really depends on whether the program would perform better from it. For example, a word processor would not benefit much from 64 bit variables where as possibly maths intensive program might.

    Mac OS X 10.6 will have a true 64 bit kernel and userland. This will improve performance not only by giving all 16 registers but allowing each process a 64 bit virtual address space.

    Windows 32 bit Jarad Clouston -- 12/01/09 (in reply to #320120770)

    Just a note on this to expand on the comment "Microsoft could easily make 32bit Windows address more than 4GB of physical memory if they wanted to". This is correct and has been done already by Microsoft.

    Windows Server 32 bit is able to address up to 64GB Memory in there Enterprise products. (2TB in 64 bit).
    The only catch to this is that Windows has not released XP, Vista or Windows 7 with more than 4GB supported in the 32 bit operating system.

    Linux will be the viable alternative when 64-bit needed Graeme Harrison (prof at-symbol post.harvard.edu) -- 14/01/09

    What the comments so far have missed is that Linux is improving at such a rate that it WILL be the viable alternative when it is time to shift to 64-bit.

    And Mel's arguments about having to change web-hosting from entirely-proprietary .NET and Access web pages to open ISO-standard Apache ones is a one-time cost that will eventually be borne by all still stuck in a proprietary environment, as surely as those who were 'All Wang' word processing houses finally changed to more open document formats. M$ is NOT great at reverse compatibility as you can be forced to do re-writes to keep up with their latest technology, as they do drop older API support routinely from new offerings, whereas with Open Source Apache etc, you'll find the reverse compatibility is better.

    A small (theoretical) point is that Alex stated that the maximum amount of RAM is 2^32 bytes of RAM (4GB) with a 32-bit OS. But in fact, in theory at least, the address space is 2^32 WORDS of RAM. A 'word' in 32-bit space being four bytes, while a 'word' in 16-bit space being two bytes. Now, I know that in intra-file addressing we specify offsets in bytes, but if OS manufacturers were pushed, they could address RAM in 'words'. Ie, if 64-bit CPUs had proven impossible to build, a slight change in the way an OS specifies a location within RAM could see us directly address 16GB of RAM, rather than 4GB. This is NOT a two-stage addressing system, as was used in the 1980s when Intel's 8-bit CPUs introduced a page-based RAM addressing scheme, given Intel's then limitation of 64kB address space (whereas the Motorola CPUs of the time did not face this problem).

    One big problem with Linux Mel Sommersberg -- 14/01/09 (in reply to #320120958)

    The biggest issue that has always dogged Linux and other Windows alternatives is that they are marketted as alternatives to Windows instead of being fully developed and marketted as a useful and productive product in their own right.

    Apple market OSX and Apple machines by putting ads on the telly starring two dummies dressed up as computers, comparing PCs to Macs.

    The Open Source movement keep shouting in our ears - Get Linux because it is better than Windows.

    Yet the differences that may have caused people to switch ten years ago aren't so compelling now. Windows has gone from being an average operating system stuck in the past with the FAT file system and the instability that went with it to a rock-solid environment that is just as stable as Unix-based operating systems and an availability of compatible software that is simply beyond the scope of either Linux or OSX. Go into hospital for an operation and a Windows-powered server will be taking your pulse and O2 saturation in the recovery ward. Get in a lift and the coloured level indicator will be powered by a Windows server. Manage building automation systems such as security and air conditioning and Windows will be running the show. Wait for a train and the arrivals/departures displays will be powered by a Windows server.

    The trust that industry now places in Uncle Bill's products is now quite widespread. People who continue to chant about BSODs and instability are locked in an era that passed a long time ago.

    I run a number of servers. Some have Free BSD installed and the rest have Windows 2000 Advanced Server. All are running well and are stable. The most recent problem I have had was when one box started losing the time even though a time server client was installed. Replacing the battery on the motherboard sorted that out.

    "And Mel's arguments about having to change web-hosting from entirely-proprietary .NET and Access web pages to open ISO-standard Apache ones is a one-time cost that will eventually be borne by all still stuck in a proprietary environment"

    I don't think it is as bad as all that. It could be a valid point but it also works in reverse. I know a few people who have changed from Unix environments to Windows, one running a few websites, including an Intranet site powered by CGI and Perl hosted on Redhat to ASP.NET hosted on Windows Server 2003. It doesn't get a mention that often because the pro-Windows fraternity tend to give themselves far less air time. They don't spend time caring what other people use as much as those in favour of free products tend to.

    Reverse compatibility has its problems in all environments. A mate of mine was not notified that his webhost was planning to upgrade from PHP4 to PHP5 yet they went ahead and did it anyway. Not only was communication from the business to the customer non-existant but his site had around 14 quibbles that required recoding in order to work correctly in PHP5. I have no idea what they were, I am just relying on his word and I suppose he'd have no reason not to be truthful about it. If reverse compatibility wasn't a concern then the site would have worked flawlessly in both versions of PHP.

    I believe that software developers have put together packages that allow ASP-based sites to work on Linux and PHP-based sites to work on Windows to help web developers with freedom of choice and also perhaps to allow them a transition period of they were planning a change in either direction however I do not think it is good practice to go about it this way. An ASP website should be hosted on a Windows server and a PHP or CGI/Perl website should be hosted on Linux or FreeBSD.

    still crashes Anonymous -- 14/01/09

    64 bits or 10000064bits Windows still crashes about as much

    still crashes? Anonymous -- 15/01/09 (in reply to #320120987)

    Windows runs fine and is stable if you know how to configure it properly.
    If it crashes you should look at yourself first

    Server 2008 R2 Anonymous -- 20/01/09

    While agreed the workstation/client end of the argument is really behind in the push for native 64bit platforms, it should be known that Microsoft are releasing Server 2008 R2 as the first 64bit only (supported) platform.

    It only seems unfair that no matter their reasoning, Microsoft will always be blamed for either moving too fast so that companies/developers do not have time/money to meet requirements, or too slow, consumers demanding changes to products without looking at the bigger picture of supportability.

    The 64bit thing Anonymous -- 26/01/09

    The fact that you need a 64bit app to run in the first place is going to slow things down - no compelling reason to change things. Microsoft just doesnt do 64 bit apps and if they do dont do it well. That also goes for much of the stuff written for windows.

    x64 runs most x32 programs very well Sneaky Pete -- 01/02/09

    It's obvious most of you guys aren't on x64 bit OS. x64 Vista will happily run 90% of all x32 programs. The Win32 in Vista x64 is much improved much better than it was in older x64's like Xp x64.

    Oh and BTW you're all wrong about the 4GB limitation in x32 ! Its actually 3.2 GB for many reasons check out

    http://www.dansdata.com/askdan00015.htm

    Please read the whole of the article before posting I am wrong garbage. Ta

    I have news for you Peter Bach -- 01/02/09

    1. Fact - Vista x64 will run 90% of all your apps/games perfectly. This is due to the much improved win32 emulation.

    2. Fact- Vista x32/Xp x32 can only use/see 3.2gb of ram not 4gb. Please read

    http://www.dansdata.com/askdan00015.htm

    Hardware is still a problem as many users still have legacy (really old) Printers, scanners, cameras, mobile phones etc. If this is you forget x64 and even vista x32 stay with xp x32 or which ever OS you have drivers for.

    95% of users are always very hesitant to move to new OS as they have everything working now and will not know how to fix any new problems.

    For Sale Apple iphone 16GB 3g..........$400, sales -- 13/02/09

    They are Brand New, Unlocked, Original, Full accessories and come with
    1 yr International waranty from the Manufacturer

    Nokia 5800 XpressMusic...........$300
    SAMSUNG I900 Omnia...............$350
    SAMSUNG I8510 innov8 8gb..........$280
    NOKIA N96 16 GB................$300
    SONY ERICSSON x1....$300
    Sony Ericsson C905 ....$350
    HTC TOUCH DIAMOND........$350
    HTC TYTN ....$290USD
    Nokia 97...........$300
    Apple iphone 8GB 3g ...........$350
    Apple iphone 16GB 3g..........$400
    BlackBerry Bold 9000....$350
    BlackBerry 9500....$360
    Apple iphone 8GB...........$280
    Apple iphone 16GB..........$320
    Sony Ps3 .....................$300
    Nokia E71.....................$300
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    Nikon D3 ....................$1300
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    64 bit os Anonymous -- 08/04/09

    In July 2007, I bought an NRG Mist Quattro high end gaming PC that came with 32 bit XP Media Centre Edition. I use it for HD video editing and digital photo editing.
    Out of curiosity, I installed 64 bit Vista Ultimate SP1 and proceeded to update drivers for printers etc. No surprises, everything works, only 4GB RAM. System is awesome to watch as it chews through HDV files with all 4 CPU cores near fully utilised.
    I spoke to Altech Computers techs who built the original system and told them what I had done. Now the latest versions of these machines come with 64 bit Vista Ultimate and a Creative Extreme Pro Gamer Sound Card same as mine.
    My opinion is that many IT Techs do not want to push 64 bit OS because they have no real experience with them. My next project is to convert my MSI L745 laptop to 64 bit Vista Ultimate. Keep an open mind and stop looking for excuses to not move forward.

    Late reply but totally agree Elric Erekose -- 04/07/09 (in reply to #320128801)

    In this household, my wife and I have two high-end notebooks - my Asus G2S, my wife's Aspire 6930G (yes, I know its an Acer, but do a clean install without all the Acer junkware, and it isn't a half-bad machine). BOTH x64 capable, BOTH released with x86 Vista. I mean, WTF??

    It gets even better. In the case of the Asus, was advised to upgrade the BIOS to ensure no issues. ACER on the other hand first gave me contradictory info on whether the 6930G was even x64 capable, then point blank refused to guide me through any BIOS upgrade (which uses WinPhlash, so I can't even upgrade BIOS at bios-level).

    It really is time the OEM vendors cut the crap. MS's biggest mistake was yet again deciding to hand over a x86 version of Win7 to the OEM vendor. Make it available as a retail version, but force the OEM to make the cross over.... maybe then we''l actually see a x64 version of Flash Player!!

    ummmm 32 bytes.... Anonymous -- 27/06/09

    don't you mean 32 BITS? 32 bytes is 256 bit....

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Alex Serpo

Alex Serpo

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