Full Duplex by David Braue

A view from the trenches of Australian telecommunications. As the name implies, it’s a two-way conversation and we ask you not to pull any punches ... we won’t.

All about separation, or all about copper?

Posted by David Braue @ 16:38 64 comments

Labor's fibre-to-the-premises NBN was meant to be an act of freedom, a breaking-free from 100 years of copper infrastructure legacy and the start of something new. So with the NBN now underway and new regulatory legislation on the table, why in the world are we still discussing Telstra's copper network?

And we are most definitely discussing it. Senator Stephen Conroy's recent mandate that Telstra separate, by hook or by crook, not only mentions the copper network, but in a speech Conroy offered some examples of how Telstra might go about it:

Importantly, the government retains an open mind on how structural separation may be achieved... For example, it may involve the creation of a new company into which Telstra could transfer some of its fixed-line assets. Alternatively, it may involve Telstra progressively migrating its fixed-line traffic to the NBN over a period of time and under set regulatory arrangements, and for it to sell or cease to use its fixed-line assets on an agreed basis.

With NBN Co apparently scouring the market for potential infrastructure buys, the former option would suit it to a T. The latter option doesn't really mandate separation, so much as an eviction order forcing Telstra to empty the copper network of traffic and dispose of the physical assets.

As the NBN slowly inches towards reality, how do we explain the government's seeming determination to acquire the copper network?

The government has clearly put a lot of thought into how it might gain access to Telstra's copper network, which is essential for current ADSL services and was crucial to the now-defunct FTTN network but has no actual role anymore. So, as the NBN slowly inches towards reality, how do we explain the government's seeming determination to acquire the copper network? In-ground copper has little to do with the NBN, after all, and the government really should be able to find land for its own fibre exchanges.

Conroy, who I noted last week has backed away from the sledgehammer approach of the initial announcement, is now painting the initiative as a victory for progress — a wake-up call for Telstra that it needs to make some concessions to partake in the "exciting" wireless future. Whatever that means. All Telstra has to do is split its copper network off into a format suitable for easy integration into the NBN.

Little wonder that some are becoming sceptical of the government's magnanimity: Conroy's interest in the copper network seems to be less about the copper itself as the labyrinthine network of underground ducts through which it passes.

Digging these ducts is not only expensive, but introduces complex access issues that will require more than a casual conversation over Friday-night beers to resolve. Conroy has previously conceded that the NBN may involve extensive overhead cabling, which would work in many areas but is hardly universally applicable; the NBN simply must have a significant underground component, and separation legislation so far seems to have been architected with this goal in mind.

Architected how? Well, given that Conroy's department received extensive and detailed maps of Telstra's entire network as part of the original NBN tender last year, it's not a stretch to assume that these maps have guided the design of the current fibre-based NBN. Overlaying the two networks must have produced a lot of overlap and cost redundancies.

Given the cost pressure on the NBN, it's likely that Conroy is counting on Telstra separation not only for its industry benefits, but its ability to deliver a more politically expedient new network. Indeed, many analysts have dismissed the separation pronouncement as nothing more than a negotiating tactic, and both the government and Telstra have indicated negotiations are indeed ongoing.

Why is Conroy proceeding on the apparent assumption that any divestiture must immediately benefit the NBN?

But why is Conroy proceeding on the apparent assumption that any divestiture must immediately benefit the NBN? Why couldn't Telstra spin off its copper network into a joint venture in which it retains a 50 per cent or 49 per cent interest, thereby retaining shareholder value while satisfying the government's desire for it to lose exclusive control over the copper network?

Heck, the other half could go to private investors, an overseas telco — or even Optus. With the NBN looming, the copper might directly benefit them more short term than long term — but if they could gain ownership of the network's rights-of-way, how would Conroy handle the resumption of the network's information highways and byways?

If one is going to poke a bear with a stick, one should make sure one is on the opposite side of a strong cage first. While the separation mandate is long overdue, assuming it's a slam dunk for competition may be optimistic.

The full extent of Conroy's real motivations are only known to him and inferred by those with whom he is negotiating. While some sort of change is now likely, whether this all results in Conroy getting unfettered access to his precious copper — and the underground ducts NBN Co needs — is still anybody's guess.

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Talkback 64 comments

    Take care with the bear. Sydney Lawrence -- 02/10/09

    Another old saying David simplistic but true is, if you poke a bear in the eye with a stick just make sure that the stick is longer than the bears arm.

    Reality Check slowly dawning on Australia Reality Check -- 02/10/09

    Yes your right NBN 2.0 needs yes NEEDS Telstra ducts and other infrastucture.

    But since its only taken 18mths to get here.
    let me help, and completely spell it out.

    There is NO NBN without 2 simple essential conditions. Everything done in the name of the NBN until now is completely and utterly redundant without these conditions fullfilled.

    And everything done till now is progressing with that "inevitability" in mind.

    A/ There can be no competing (fixed) network against the NBN

    i.e no Telstra supplying ADSL, ADSL 2+, VDSL or DOCSIS 3.0 or anything else that may come along in future to be used on copper or HFC. Supplied directly to retail and or to wholesale.

    B/ Telstra MUST put its revenue / traffic across the NBN. (even with this revenue viabilty is not assured. At least not for many many years. A term well beyond the commercial scope of ANY private enterprise.

    C/ In achieving point A/ and point B/ the NBNco will be built entirely on Telstra wholesale the company. That is the thousands of people, the offices, the process's, the programs, ALL THE TELSTRA INFRASTRUCTURE.. All other possible infrastructure from others is peripheral and minor.

    That is why and only why, Telstra must be seperated and not only that, but it must be made to support and have an interest in the NBN.

    Loss's forced onto shareholders to not only stop competing with a new govt project but also made to support it with assets people and revenue.

    Running comms let alone fibre to rural and regional Aust. is unprofitable. That does not mean it should not be done, but rather it should be done by Govt. And not . . . . . . . . . . .

    Absolutely disgusting, Mugabe policy arrives in Australia.

    p.s.

    Beautifully played Optus, Its close to, but it aint over yet.

    Even though the delay you caused means you won along time ago either way.

    The loss to Telstra will unequivocally be huge, but the loss to Australian society's principles and values is much greater.

    Telstra shot themselves in the foot Peter H -- 02/10/09 (in reply to #320353451)

    They could have built their own NBN, but they were too greedy and held the country to ransom.

    Racketeers always lose in the end.

    no-high-taxes-for-nbn Anonymous -- 03/10/09 (in reply to #320353460)

    Racketeers???

    They're a public company, there's no racket & no reason to break them up. Period.

    Rudd would make Stalin proud.

    no-high-taxes-for-nbn Anonymous -- 03/10/09

    OP wrote: "While the separation mandate is long overdue".

    Spoken like a true socialist.

    Why should Telstra be broken up?

    First Rudd ditches Opel, then says he'll build his own fibre network & now says he wants Telstra's assets. What total BS.

    why? Anonymous -- 03/10/09 (in reply to #320353722)

    if you don't know by now why they are being broken up, there's no hope for you. get back under your rock.

    It;s all about internet censorship and media control Anonymous -- 03/10/09

    The nbn will never be built,telstra will never sell assetts or seprate as they need shareholder approval to do so.it will all end up in court.
    The only reason the goverment wants to build the NBN is to implement true internet censorship and media control-they carn't handle the fact the the genral public can access what ever content they want when they want.no rules =no control =less tax revenue.

    Never be built? Anonymous -- 04/10/09 (in reply to #320353807)

    Never be built?
    It is currently being constructed in Tasmania. As for censorship. That is not possible, this is just wholesale infrastrucutre.

    Shame on Rudd. Sydney Lawrence -- 03/10/09

    Fellow Australians, never believe that Australia is a free country or the land of a "fair go" if Mr Rudd succeeds with his blackmail and destruction of Telstra.

    well done rudd Anonymous -- 03/10/09 (in reply to #320353859)

    ending telstra's obvious dominance, which they didn't earn, it was gifted by us the tax payer, is "a fair go at last".

    yes, it is a free country... Derek Nguyen -- 03/10/09 (in reply to #320353859)

    Sydney, it is a free country, nobody holds a gun to your head and forces you to buy Telstra shares. The risks are stated in the Prospectus:

    "Telstra faces substantial regulatory risks that it believes have, and will continue to have, substantial adverse effects on its business."

    You took the risks, nobody forces you to buy it, that's "fair go" isn't it? You bought it, knowing all along there's risk involved, so why are you complaining now? Fernando has stopped posting his fake Rudd rant because he finally sees the value of the NBN and everything made sense to him now, good on ya Fernando. Now there's only two left, of course i might be wrong.

    Goverment is not justice - Only puppets confuse the two. Reality Check -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320354410)

    Your a moron Derek, lets follow logic.
    Nobody holds a gun to your head to live in the house you choose to. So when someone decides to steal it and redistribute to others its all ok is it !

    Or perhaps the govt just force you to take in new residents and they decide you will also provide food and clothing not just shelter at whatever price they decree.

    Look it up, Govt can and have acted illegally. And many many more times immorally.

    All about separation, or all about copper? Vasso Massonic -- 03/10/09

    Neither. It's utter disarray.

    The following link elucidates.

    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/nbn-stephen-conroy-telstra-optus-nbnco-sol-trujill-pd20091002-WF58M?OpenDocument&src=sph

    BS & AFR = LOL RS -- 03/10/09 (in reply to #320355005)

    Thanks for that link to "Business Spectator" Vasso.

    Please now supply another to the "Financial Review", so that you can show us your other source of comms knowledge [sic]!

    The inherent conflicts between social and competition policies Max -- 04/10/09 (in reply to #320355005)

    Excellent article to educate the uninformed of the economic and political realities of this complex issue - thank you!!

    Informed? RS -- 04/10/09 (in reply to #320357505)

    So are you informed now Vasso, oops, sorry Max?

    All about separation, or all about copper? Vasso Massonic -- 04/10/09

    An Addendum.

    Alan Kohler exposed the NBN fallacy for what it's worth during the ABC's Inside Business broadcast on 04/10/2009 whilst interviewing former ACCC chairman Allan Fels.

    Here are a few pertinent points which prolong the disarray agony:

    ALAN KOHLER: Do you regard the legislation as proposed in regard to Telstra to structurally separate it as a victory for the ACCC?

    ALLAN FELS: Yes and for consumer. This had to happen. The access law was very weak and it was introduced at a time when the Government wanted to privatise Telstra, so it made it weak and kept it weak. And so the true objectives of policy weren't achieved.

    The real issue, I see now, is that not only should we strengthen regulation but we have to consider the relationship of these moves to the establishment of the national broadband network. There are a lot of tricky questions; are we going to restructure Telstra now once and then soon after maybe restructure it again for the NBN?

    ALAN KOHLER: What because the NBN will be a monopoly?

    ALLAN FELS: Well, that's a further concern. Obviously I would be quite concerned if all the main players now like Telstra and Optus and everyone got into the NBN and it had monopoly power. That is a real dilemma.

    ALAN KOHLER: You were running the ACCC at the time roughly when they were privatising Telstra, are you saying, do you think that the Government was deliberately weak on the regulation of Telstra in Order to maximise its price?

    ALLAN FELS: Absolutely and that has been said by people in the government. It's in the book by Fletcher who was an adviser and everyone knew that the government went soft on Telstra during that time.

    ALAN KOHLER: Thanks for joining us, Allan Fels.

    ALLAN FELS: Thank you.

    More Telstra lies highlighted by Vasso, thanks mate! RS -- 04/10/09 (in reply to #320357518)

    So everyone now admits the government was "too soft on Telstra, regulations wise", Vasso!

    You even highlight the fact. But that's not what you and the other Telstra puppets have been saying for the last 5 years, is it? Curious.

    ALAN KOHLER: You were running the ACCC at the time roughly when they were privatising Telstra, are you saying, DO YOU THINK THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS DELIBERATELY WEAK ON THE REGULATION OF TELSTRA in order to maximise its price?

    ALLAN FELS: ABSOLUTELY AND THAT HAS BEEN SAID BY PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT. It's in the book by Fletcher who was an adviser and everyone knew that the government went soft on Telstra during that time".

    So the (harsh) regulations campaign mounted by Dr. Burgess, NWAT and a few greedy shareholders, was yet another lie from Telstra and you puppets! They weren't harsh at all they were WEAK - so you just claimed above!

    You cried about the harshness of regulations and "those terrible foreign leeches", but now that the wheels have fallen off, you typically do a back flip?

    Do you Telstra shills ever have a definite position and actually stick to it?

    So you now advocate separation, due to the WEAKNESS of Telstra regulations, lol!

    Regardless, thanks for disclosing more Telstra lies Vasso.

    The inherent conflicts between social and competition policies Vasso Massonic -- 04/10/09

    MAX, ah! I clearly now see what you meant by..."to educate the uninformed of the economic and political realities of this complex issue "

    TLS shareholder skullduggery, lol! RS -- 04/10/09 (in reply to #320357711)

    Nice try, NOT, Vasso.

    Funny, apart from my comments and your reply, there's only been 2 other comments today on this topic. Yours and the mysterious Max's.

    Strangely convenient too that these other 2 comments (the only other 2 in 24 hours) are within minutes of each other and one straight after the other. Max's at 1.38 and yours the very next comment at 1.58. Hmmm!

    Coincidence too eh, that the mysterious Max (who I've never seen comment here before) was just happening to read and decided to comment perhaps for the first time, praising your link, at the exact time you were reading!

    "Gee and all this frenetic action - the reading of comments, actual writing of repliy comments, copying and checking quotes from a broadcast contained within, reciprocal praise, comments submission, to and fro ...

    "all happened in just a mere 20 minutes, wow"..
    doesn't seem possible! Conveniently coincidental I guess? lol!

    But what about those Telstra lies, you kindly highlighted and I mentioned (about the regulations)?

    More disgraceful Telstra lies, eh? Thanks again for bringing that to everyone's attention.

    You are a true "Telstra hater/Anti-Telstra Brigade" member, Vasso, lol!

    Open up RS, honesty demands it. Sydney Lawrence -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320358561)

    RS while I hesitate to place additional pressure on you, I do request that you answer my previous question. It was quite simple.

    Do you think that Telstra should be allowed to compere with the proposed NBN or do you believe that the Rudd Government should, by blackmail and threats of dis-membership, destroy Telstra and allow the NBN to become a monopoly without competition.

    Understand now RS. Sydney Lawrence -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320358925)

    Forgive me readers, rush is wrong. The R is beside the T. That word, of course, should be "compeTe".

    Open up RS, honesty demands it. Vasso Massonic -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320358925)

    Sydney, don't ask for technicalities. The gentleman is strictly fiction and plays on the imagination. Who is Max? is more important than our National Telecommunications Interest.

    Scarlet pimpernels. Sydney Lawrence -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320358932)

    Vasso all Australians have to be very careful here. With $43 billion of taxpayer money in the trough the pigs will be in there in spades, and if that means the destruction of Australia's Telstra by blackmail or any other method Telstra opponents will be all for it.

    Syd & Vasso, a NWAT greed reunion! RS -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359051)

    Gee a NWAT reunion.

    NWAT (Greed Haven) closes down and the desperate share driven lunacy of NWAT posters #1 Vasso (yes he "quadrupled" even Syd's comments, lol) and #3 Syd (Mr P**er of course being #2) now continues here...YAWN...

    1. Vasso, you were the one playing stupid games with your alter ego and were caught out. In typical fashion you continue the fraud and are not man enough to admit your faux pas . Simple.

    2. Sydney, I have refrained from answering your question for 2 reasons. Firstly, the last few times you have asked questions of me, I have sent detailed answers and strangely never heard back from you again? Another case of the "truth hurts" and a demonstration that you "weren't really interested in what I had to say"

    See, you couldn't find any of my answers which weren't factual or were contradictory (no holes - like all your comments) and no Telstra brownie points could be made. So you just ignore my answers - how polite...

    It was a complete waste of my time.

    Secondly, your incessant changes in opinion, from one extreme to the other, which always coincide with "whatever is best for Telstra". Let me expand relating to your latest of many tacks...

    Months ago Sydney, following the government dismissing all NBN bidders, as they had previously done to Telstra (although the other bidders at least tried, by forwarding actual bids) you came here and to NWAT and said that "the NBN should now immediately be awarded to Telstra, to own/run, with access to others via appropriate regulations set out by the ACCC". I'm sure you remember! I believe you even mentioned the word monopoly!

    You were advocating a regulated Telstra monopoly - much like the FTTN monopoly, the egotistical Mr. Trujillo let slip through his fingers in 2005, when he was too "greedy" (a word you are most familiar with) with his return.

    But even though you supported a Telstra monopoly (which surprisingly, would be beneficial to TLS shareholders) you now come here to demonstrate "against" what you call a "government monopoly", which would benefit all Australians, not just TLS shareholders.

    Sydney your ridiculous views would be a little more believable if you didn't forever, mid-stream, do a complete reversal and if you argued equal rules for everyone and not one set of rules for Telstra/the Mrs' shares and another rule for the rest!

    How any rational person can totally endorse an approach, when pro Telstra, then totally discredit the exact same approach if not Telstra, is most curious, if not openly blindly, biased! Then I did say, "How any rational person", didn't I? So...

    Ooh I almost forgot - "God Bless (the wife's) Telstra (shares)"!

    Tag team deflectors, lol! RS -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359130)

    Ooh and don't think your little "NWAT tag-team" deflection, will let us forget the fact that NWAT #1 spokesman (Vasso) admitted, with quotes to support...

    "REGULATIONS PERTAINING TO TELSTRA AREN'T AND HAVE NEVER BEEN HARSH ENOUGH"!

    Thanks again Vasso. God Bless (your) Telstra (shares too)!

    Simple really RS. Sydney Lawrence -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359166)

    Great reply RS, if a trifle long. But please RS answer my question YES or NO.

    You expect what you refuse to deliver, pffft! RS -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359193)

    Sorry for the length Sydney, I know it's hard for you to concerntrate without the word Telstra or money in evey line, as you lose interest (pun intended)...

    Sydney considering when I asked you previously to put up or shut up, in relation to the Optus D3 satellite (the investment you keep asking for but pretending doesn't exist) and TelstraClear (NZ) leeching from Telecom and it took you a fortnight to come back with this answer - "I DUNNO" (so you didn't put up and you certainly haven't shut up) - you are hardly in a position to expect anything of others, greedy man!

    However, because unlike you, I do not have a greed driven, FINANCIAL INTEREST (referring to you wife's 70000 TLS shares), my answer is Y E S, did you get that Y E S. Now here's why...

    I believe this is actually an opportunity for Telstra to grab a big slice of the NBN and set up Telstra, their decent hardworking mum and dad shareholders and you and a couple of other disgracefully greedy, disgusting shareholders, for years to come!

    You see Telstra are no longer the 800lb gorilla - that's now the government. So instead of their usual muscle flexing, lawyer touting bullsh!t, Telstra will have to quickly find humility, or they will be on the receiving end of what they normally dish out.

    But if Telstra want to compete with the NBN, as others have tried to compete with them (with the rules stacked against them too) then, go for it!

    Again, Telstra have found the needed humility in Mr. Thodey, "who is doing a great job"! He's an intelligent operator, who has done more for Telstra in 6 months than Sol did in 4 years and has mended the burned bridges - even though a few dopey, greedy shareholders can't see it and keep undermining him.

    I'm sure the separation legislation from the government has been in the pipe work well before Mr. Thodey took over, and is a direct consequence of the Trujillo antagonism.

    I also think a vertically integrated Telstra is the best for Telstra and their shareholders. However, "under the circumstances", I now think an amicable separation and big NBN stake, the best "current outcome available to Telstra/TLS shareholders".

    If done amicably with a big slice of NBN as the light at the end of the tunnel, Telstra can refocus on business not regulations (which weren't that harsh after all, hey Vasso) regain some solidity and the share price will rise over time. However, if Telstra decided to take the Trujillo approach and fight, with court battles and the "unknown" lingering on for months or years, TLS shares will be decimated. But if Telstra want to...

    Markets only hate one thing more than bad news and that's uncertainty. Bad news, shares get hit and then rebuild. With uncertainty they slip and slip, awaiting the bad news and if that bad news does come, well...

    Stay tuned I will have some questions for you too Sydney (I feel like a good laugh) and it is my turn to ask!

    "God Bless (the wife's) Telstra (shares)"!

    Wait and see. Sydney Lawrence -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359229)

    RS, your sharp wit and a respectable knowledge does not escape me.

    However, as a person qualified in the aspect of human relations I can tell you your adversarial attitude should be moderated if your goals are to be achieved.

    You are quite wrong when you project that I do not support Mr Thodey. The fact is that, as yet, I do not know enough about Mr Thodey or his modus operandi to be opinioned. I certainly wish him well.

    RS you do make many good points, but I think you will agree, that is as yet too early to make a sensible judgement on the final outcome of the NBN saga. We all hope for a win,win solution.

    I am not persuaded that an interest (big or small) in the government NBN would be a good investment. With domination by the ACCC on pricing and greedy ISP's pushing for cheap delivery its viability is not assured.

    As is suggested in today's AFR it may be a good idea for Telstra management to let Telstra owners (shareholders) make the decision on their NBN involvement by vote and consensus in the near future.

    My turn RS -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359287)

    Sydney my turn...

    1. Why was a Telstra monopoly not only ok, but openly advocated by you, when you now oppose any "governmental monopoly" either perceived or real?

    2. Have Optus have invested in satellites, fixed and mobile comms? As you required a simple yes or no please (then feel free to elaborate)!

    3. Do TelstraClear leech of Telecom, as they access Telecom's network in NZ? As you required a simple yes or no please (then feel free to elaborate)!

    4. Do you agree with Mr Fels and Vasso, that regulations regarding Telstra, weren't harsh enough after all? As you required a simple yes or no please (then feel free to elaborate)!

    5. Do you agree with the retrenchments made and overseas outsourcing by Telstra (putting 1000's of Australian's out of a job) simply to help the share price? As you required a simple yes or no please (then feel free to elaborate)! Say no, but we know the real answer, lol!

    6. My main question - "Do you wish Sol had just agreed with the ACCC's pricing for FTTN in 2005"? As you required a simple yes or no please (then feel free to elaborate)!

    Just half a dozen simple questions. Thank you.

    ..........expect what you refuse to deliver, pffft! Anonymous -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359229)

    Yeah right, you insufferable supercilious bore.

    Thanks Mike Anonymous -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359395)

    Thank you for todays childish idoicy Mike Ne win.

    If only you could face reality without those share loses!

    PS Davo -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320359407)

    Don't talk to Sydney, he's just a stupid racists.

    David Braue, It seems I stand accused of fraudulently Vasso Massonic -- 05/10/09

    introducing a phantom writer named Max.

    "1. Vasso, you were the one playing stupid games with your alter ego and were caught out. In typical fashion you continue the fraud and are not man enough to admit your faux pas . Simple."

    The only Max I know is Max Bygraves who sung ' When You Come To The End Of A Lollipop, All You Have Left Is The Stick.... but in Conroy and his Fan's case, it's... All you have left is the trench!

    .

    Lol. RS -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359337)

    So we'll take that as an admission!

    Best stick to your phonograph Vasso and leave the phones to the experts anyway.

    You do understand ex-dividend now though and I see you now understand FTTP... see old dogs can learn new tricks after all!

    Not about the copper Rick Bishop -- 05/10/09

    It's funny how everyone focuses on the copper when people talk about "fixed line assets". In case you didn't know, telstra have thousands of kilometres of fibre in the ground. Every single RIM is connected via fibre. Every single exchange is connected via fibre. There are even some homes, and a huge amount of businesses that are connected via fibre. Acquiring telstras "fixed line assets" means that the NBNco would really only have to worry about putting fibre in to the "last mile" in a huge amount of circumstances.

    Disarray Vasso Massonic -- 05/10/09

    Sydney, Our five year barrage on NWAT has been a success which is sadly missed by the institutional shareholder fraternity who are now filling the gap on behalf the additional many millions of Telstra shareholders in managed and retirement funds.

    Rookie Telecommunications Ministers in both shades of Federal Government along with a rogue regulator and a half baked regulatory regime are responsible for the current disarray which is at risk of being perpetuated into our future.

    Today's edition of the Australian Financial review bears an excellent précis on the current state of affairs.

    The following extract says it all.... "People are now painting (former Teltra chief executive) Sol Trujillo as the guy who destroyed value at Telstra. But in fairness, he always warned that you can't negotiate with these guys (the Labor government) as all you'll get is a 'sh(!)t sandwich'. He was right.

    Defend the homeland. Sydney Lawrence -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359360)

    Vasso while the debate continues hope still springs eternal.

    But Mr Rudd must expedite a solution and that solution must be a win for all concerned, the Australian taxpayer and those who own Telstra should not be the losers that fund the proposed NBN.

    Should the hoped for result not eventuate the Management of Telstra are duty bound to challenge any capital destroying proposal and let the 1.4 million Australian shareholders and 30,000 Australian employees of Telstra know the seriousness of the situation.

    Telstra's 30,000 Australian employees Vasso Massonic -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359368)

    and their Defined Benefits Retirement Fund will be put at risk if NBN Co, an administrative entity made up of many chiefs, a sprinkle of indians and a vast array of contractors, deploys the new network.

    But Rudd thinks he knows best.

    Well, where are my answers Telstra shill? RS -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359368)

    Sydney... where are my answers - YES or NO, lol...

    Success, lol! RS -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359360)

    Your 5 year barrage on NWAT has been a complete failure and waste of time, as Telstra is in a completely worse position now than they were then.

    Plus NWAT has been scrubbed, but you believe what you want, lol!

    How's Max going, lol...

    Kid yourself if it makes you feel better sycophantic shill but then check the share price if you need any further proof!

    Why? Anonymous -- 05/10/09

    "Why couldn't Telstra spin off its copper network into a joint venture in which it retains a 50 per cent or 49 per cent interest, thereby retaining shareholder value while satisfying the government's desire for it to lose exclusive control over the copper network?"

    Because Sol's antics have created a large amount of animosity between the government and Telstra and the Government has decided that Telstra must go.

    Labour sees any investors as pro Liberal and so don't care about destroying the value of the millions of mom and dad shareholders because they wouldn't vote Labour anyway so it's no loss.

    WHY? Simply because Vasso Massonic -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359372)

    Telstra needs to control it's own destiny to tackle a project of this magnitude. Besides, Conroy wants the network for an equity of no more than 25 per cent. Also, name one project governments, of any persuasion, have satisfactorily completed in their own right.

    Lastly, Corporation Law would precludes Telstra directors from undertaking such a risky join venture using shareholder assets and funding.

    One Government project.... Andrew -- 05/10/09 (in reply to #320359389)

    Oh, you mean the copper access network built by government all those years ago....so you're admitting Telecom Mark 1 was a failure? What's it to be Vasso?
    It seems Vasso is implying that government owned monopolies can't run or build anything right, but then a bunch of private contractors is somehow bad? Vasso, hate to dissappoint you, but you'll find the only people and companies with any capability to build this network are always going to be contracted. Telstra would have got Alcatel-Lucent to build the FTTN network; NBN Co is likely to do the same (or one of the other big players - Nokia Siemens, Ericsson with a dash of Cisco here and splash of Nortel there). These companies are behind all the major telcos, Telstra doesn't have a monopoly on the intellectual property required to build a decent network. But it does make sense for the government to engage a company with 80% of the industry profits in the process, otherwise as the replies to this story imply, Telstra's only motivation if they are not engaged will be to destroy the process and stall any progress to ensure shareholder value is extended as long as possible (in a slow rather than rapid declining spiral).
    Quite frankly, I'm amazed anyone invested in a company with that much market share - you've either got to hope the market would grow considerably such that any expected decrease in market share to acceptable competitive levels was offset by the increased revenues. I guess when people were buying T1 & T2, there was a dot.com bubble on the horizon. Growth was perceived to be inevitable. That didn't happen, but it seems those shareholders (who are a minority of Australians) expect the rest of us to bear the brunt of that risk taken and lost.
    No one is proposing Telstra assets are seized, so no unlawful conduct by the government is occuring. Telstra have a choice - the growth opportunity will be in 4G spectrum and the NBN and they need to play ball with the rest of society to be a part of it. Thodey recognises that - it's just gonna take a bunch of convincing air headed Sydney's and Vasso's to get over it and try and understand what is best for EVERY australian.

    One Government Project - Try again Vasso Massonic -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320359425)

    Andrew, I don't mean that at all. The telephone utility built during the Colonial era served the people well and we should all be proud and endeavour to preserve the Icon which private enterprise transformed it to what we have today.

    Rightly or wrongly, the powers that be decided to privatise the network, along with The Commonwealth Bank, Qantas, Commonwealth Serum Labs Etc. and collected close to sixty billion dollars from the people for the phone assets. The reason being that Governments do not have the development funds to keep up with technological advancements. All you need to do is look at the dismal state of our hospitals, roads, schools Etc.
    Anyone can build a FTTP network, all it takes is the skill, money and a proven track record. Sadly, NBN Co. has none of these. But resorting to blackmail pertaining to the 4G spectrum should not be deemed to be the Australian way of achieving things and should not be encouraged.

    I note that you stopped at T2. T3 was the real culprit and perhaps you may wish to elaborate.

    The Tsunami commeth. Sydney Lawrence -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320361278)

    RS it has been my desire to persuade you to desist from your (forgive me but I can't think of words more suitable) imbecilic, insulting and totally misleading diatribe of rubbish that you have continued to publish. Consequently I will no longer respond to your insulting barbs.

    Of late we are seeing serious expressions of doubt as to the viability of the proposed NBN and further hostility to the despicable threat and blackmail that has been directed at Telstra. As the Australian people become more understanding of this government jackboot policy protests will increase.

    Eight % + of the population can't be wrong Vasso Massonic -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320361487)

    Telstra's second-largest shareholder has launched a campaign among its 90,000 investors in Telstra to complain to federal politicians, arguing that proposed regulatory changes in the telecommunications sector will hurt Telstra shares........

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/investor-urges-telstra-protest-20091005-gjcf.html

    Addendum to above Vasso Massonic -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320361628)

    Full Text: Letter by AFIC criticising Telstra separation

    The following is the full text unedited letter written by the Australian Foundation Investment Company (AFIC) and posted on its website criticising the federal government's proposed regulatory changes in the telecommunications sector, for shareholders to send to the government:

    October 2009

    Prime Minister / Senator / MP

    Dear Prime Minister / Senator / MP

    I am a shareholder in Telstra and I am writing to express my deep concern at recent developments being the proposed changes to the regulatory framework within which the company operates.

    I acquired my shares in the company in good faith and at full value based on the current regulatory environment which allows the company to operate as a fully integrated telecommunications company. The proposed new framework seeks to penalise Telstra for being highly successful in its current structure. In penalising Telstra you are also penalising its many shareholders such as me who bear the brunt in the loss in value that results.

    The Government seems determined to go down a path of structural separation of the company, yet as far as I am aware, every example of structural separation taken elsewhere in the world has resulted in tremendous loss of value for the affected shareholders. It is simply not the case that structural separation can be a win-win situation for shareholders and other stakeholders in Telstra.

    I am also very concerned at the proposed telecommunications industry legislation which threatens Telstra with shareholder damaging sanctions in the form of divestment of its Foxtel shareholding, divestment of its hybrid fibre coaxial cable network and inaccessibility of new band widths for fourth generation mobile networks etc, unless the company complies with Government directives. I am not aware of any other example of legislation undertaken by a Government which specifically attacks a single company with punitive measures unless they follow a particular course of action.

    I think this sets an extremely dangerous precedent which will highlight to both domestic and international investors the reality of the sovereign risk that applies to investments in Australian companies because the Government can legislate against specific companies arbitrarily.

    I also have concerns about the Government’s new national broadband network which will need to acquire assets from Telstra to facilitate its setup and operation. I feel very troubled that because of the Government’s coercive behaviour that the company will be forced to sell assets into the national broadband network without the current shareholders receiving a fair and reasonable price for these assets.

    The Government spent a great deal of time, effort and money to persuade many retail investors to participate in the three Telstra share offers. At the time I acquired my shares in Telstra there was no prospect of the Government taking such unprecedented steps to attack the company and its shareholders. The Government has reaped the benefit of selling its interests in the company and having done so it now seeks to seriously damage the interests of all those who acquired their shares in good faith without giving fair and just compensation.

    I understand that the Government has policy objectives which it is seeking to pursue to improve telecommunications industry outcomes for consumers. However I would urge that the Government seriously reconsider its approach which is to significantly undermine Telstra’s position to the detriment of well over one million Australian shareholders directly and many more indirectly through their superannuation funds.

    The way to ensure consumers ultimately benefit is to promote a healthy and profitable industry including Telstra where there is real economic incentive for investors to reinvest funds in the needed on-going capital expenditure that is required to stay at the leading edge of technological development.

    Yours sincerely

    Share This Story

    8%+! RS -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320361628)

    8%+ of the population big deal, what about the other 92% -?

    There's that greedy TLS shareholder logic again, lol!

    Plus I also saw you linked to SMH Vasso and got excited, thinking you were actually looking outside the square for once!

    Until I found it was SMH "Business Day", typical, lol.

    re The Tsunami commeth. Anonymous -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320361487)

    Sydney, you are never going to get a decent response from R.S. He has no sense of decency whatsoever, which is a well proven fact.The guy is exactly what his initials stand for, a recalcitrant scumbag. No longer responding to his "imbecilic, insulting and totally misleading diatribe of rubbish", is definitely your best course of action.

    don't have the guts... Salami Chujillo -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320361757)

    Anonymous, you don't even have the guts to publish your proper name. Such a coward, attacking someone from behind the "Anonymous" nick. RS is simply exposing the greedy TLS shareholders for what they are, greedy and nothing else.

    He aint anonymous, he's Mike... YAWN! RS -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320361953)

    Thanks Salami, coming from Sol's obviously much smarter brother, lol, that is quite comforting!

    But he's not so anonymous, he's MIKE NE WIN and he does this e v e r y d a y, lol!

    How old are you Mike? You're retired aren't you? But with the mentality and intelligence of a 10 year old!

    You have commented anonymously everyday (sometimes 4 or 5 per day) for the last 6 months, saying the exact same childish idiocy, each time. Firstly to Joe, then Jason and now me!

    Not one comment from you is ever comms related and not one ever shows any intelligence at all! They are just childish tongue poking stupidity and actually very humorous, even though they aren't intended to be, lol!

    Ever read back your own comments Mike? "You typify everything to dislike about Telstra"! Seriously, with your childish stupidity and Syd's and Vasso's greed, you guys are truly Telstra's competitor's best assets!

    If you have read them but aren't intelligent enough to be embarrassed, don't worry, we (meaning those who are intelligent enough, NOT to have lost everything on TLS shares) are embarrassed for you.

    As Salami says, you constantly display a lack of courage, in not showing your name (but your stupidity gives you away). You also display disgraceful share driven greed, like your mates and a very strange, childish desperation! The desperation of "a truly burnt greedy TLS shareholder, who has lost his shirt and just can't handle the truth"!

    No wonder you bought TLS at $9 and they are now worth $3.26, wise and intelligent investor [sic], lol!

    ..................poor old R.S. Bratwurst Bob -- 07/10/09 (in reply to #320362090)

    "How old are you R.S? You're retarded aren't you? With the mentality and intelligence of a 10 year old piece of salami !"

    If only you realised just how little respect there is for you and your never ending supply of stupid comments, this site would be better off. But that of course would be far too much to expect. I actually came across something this morning that instantly reminded me of you, and nearly stepped in it. Unlike your insulting posts to all and sundry however, I managed to side step it, and forget it.

    ...don't have the guts...... Bratwurst Bob -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320361953)

    HaHaHa.......... how appropriate. Such an imbecilic comment from a foul smelling sausage. What a hoot you are Salami.

    why Sol serious sssir... Salami Chujillo -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320362930)

    Bratwurst Bob, Sol told me he laughed all the way to the bank after he left Australia. Pocketing $millions of shareholder's monies, unfortunately, the honest and rational shareholders got conned as well. Telstra is a sinking ship, that's why he left early. He also says that even Phil Burgess didn't recommend his grandma buying Telstra shares, so why? Me think the other two should listen to Phil in the first place. You have to be careful about what you say, otherwise i'll unleash a bunch foul smelly lawyers to get ya.

    OMG RS -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320363365)

    Bratwurst Bob would appear to again be our foolish friend, Mike, Salami - see what I mean.

    He returns each day - to tell people to ignore me?

    .....why Sol serious sssir... Bratwurst Bob -- 07/10/09 (in reply to #320363365)

    Yeah yeah yeah........... smelly sausages that live in glass cases, should not throw stones. As for what Sol told you, who gives a toss. R.S might, but I certainly don't !

    Lol Sydney. RS -- 06/10/09 (in reply to #320361487)

    How conveniently splendid Sydney!

    6 basic questions, simply asking you to back yourself and your many comments. But after hundreds of replies to me - "now" you decide to no longer correspond with me, "before/without answering"? Gee what ironic timing, eh!

    This was the exact approach Vasso took at NWAT too, when his very similar comments to your's were also questioned and he could no longer argue against the truth, either!

    Conveniently ironic, that the 2 most outspoken Telstra supporters/shareholders, refuse to discuss comms with me or answer my questions, lol!

    Of course the reason for you both not answering, isn't your incessant baseless, share driven drivel, is it? It's me, lol...

    You blokes are great at the blame game. It must be fantastic not having any responsibility and just blaming everyone else for absolutely everything that occurs!

    Sydney, this childish and gutless (Vasso like) approach, is answer enough to reaffirm that neither of you have any answers and by saying nothing (for a change) you are telling us more than your previous 5 thousand, selfishly greedy, disgraceful share driven comments, ever did!

    Fancy after all this time and all those comments "educating [sic] us all"; when it comes to the crunch, you do not have the guts to answer, lol!

    But with you being one who has proven he is unable to keep his word anyway (I still recall you bidding us all "adios" many months ago, remember? But, within days you reneged and returned...) I'm sure you'll be back commenting in relation to me (probably anonymously) in the days/weeks to come. Lol, more childish Telstra stupidity, just like another of you mindless Telstra clones, Mike Ne win, does each day!

    Again Sydney, "sell the shares and smell the roses"! Because the "truth obviously does hurt, badly"!

    Thank you for nothing, which tells us so much!

    Ooh and...God Bless (my wife's) Telstra (shares), eh Sydney!

    'Ello, 'ello, 'ello - copper? Anonymous -- 06/10/09

    Why is everybody getting their knickers knotted about the copper network? I can't recall the CAN being included in any official statements about the NBN, so it seems some people are extrapolating extravagantly.

    It's amusing hearing sydlala and the rest of the cafeteria emoting about the terrible danger of a monopoly. It seems that Telstra has always used the power of its huge cash-flow and incumbent monopoly to screw end-users and prevent competition.

    They have changed their tune over the years, though. They used to claim that only a monopoly could provide the technical ability to ensure that Australia had up-to-date comms standards (and look where that got us).

    Now they have discovered they have shareholders, so it seems that it may now be OK to continue screwing the customers, just because they can, and nothing must interfere with their ability to do so.

    Just as well we now have a government that is prepared to correct some past stupidity in comms policy on behalf of all comms users.

    You lot Anonymous -- 07/10/09 (in reply to #320362068)

    Hi Guys

    Read quite a lot of the above comments. You are all Mad. Keep it coming, I am enjoying the cut & thrust of your responses, jibes and insults.
    Splendid

    Interested Chick..

    hey hey hey... Salami Chujillo -- 07/10/09 (in reply to #320367998)

    hey interested chick, are you single?

    Ah... RS -- 07/10/09 (in reply to #320368676)

    Now I know how you got the name Salami, lol!

    hey hey hey hey Anonymous -- 08/10/09 (in reply to #320368676)

    Yep, single, ugly as sin, thick as a brick, and right up your alley, smelly. Look forward to meeting you
    as you sound very similar.

    NBN Debate Frank Blount -- 14/10/09

    Copper lines/ petroleum cars; business/politicians.
    What is in place and safe (copper/petroleum= huge profits) will remain until big business and politicians can reservedly say they can make profit from another source
    Ironic in this economic climate in that no one is willing to take the risk to make further profit.
    So here it is from a certified rocket scientist, provide us with fast broadband we can afford, and the majority will pay, simple enough?

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David Braue

David Braue

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