A new Vista on Linux

With Linux continuing its struggle to convince the world's businesses that it's a viable Windows alternative, David Braue asks if the pending release of Windows Vista could finally provide the boost it's been waiting for.

More than five years ago the launch of Microsoft Windows XP -- and its considerably improved features and reliability compared with Windows 98 and 2000 -- made a comprehensive desktop rollout a no-brainer for companies. The other options -- still-nascent Linux, IBM's all-but-dead OS/2, or unstable DOS-based versions of Windows -- were all far from desirable.

Now, as the world gears up for the launch of Windows Vista, the conclusion may not be so cut and dry. Certainly, Vista is set to be feature-packed and reliable, and many companies will move to the new platform as a matter of course. However, Linux has come a long way in five years, with the concerted effort of hobbyists around the world supplemented by the resources of tech heavyweights to push its desktop features to near-parity with Windows XP.

Because of these improvements many companies may take the impending upgrade as an opportunity to reconsider the role of Linux in their overall desktop strategy. It is less expensive, of course, and seamless integration with Windows servers and improved management tools has made it much easier to integrate into existing environments. Furthermore, Linux's lower resource requirements may allow it to run on existing desktops that will need replacement for any upgrade to Windows Vista.

If companies find that Linux and related open-source software offer a better overall value proposition than Windows Vista, 2006 could well be the tipping point for desktop Linux. That would be a major coup for desktop Linux -- long the poor cousin to server-based Linux, which has exploded into the corporate consciousness over the past five years to the point where it is actually remarkable not to be using it.

Despite its popularity on the back end most companies remain reluctant to consider the potential role for Linux on their desktops. IDC has forecast that Linux will grow from three-percent desktop market share (17 million PCs worldwide) in 2003 to seven percent (42.6 million) in 2008, yet that still represents just a small portion of all PC sales, most comparable to the decidedly niche penetration of Apple's Mac OS X.

Government agencies are leading the charge in Linux deployments in Australia. The NSW Roads and Traffic Authority (RTA) for one, expects to trim desktop management costs by 20 percent after rolling out 3000 Linux desktops.

NSW Office of State Revenue CIO Mike Kennedy recently announced plans to start scoping for a 600-strong Linux desktop rollout after expressing dissatisfaction with Microsoft's planned Vista licensing arrangements. And tender documents from the NT Department of Corporate Information Systems indicates it is seriously considering Linux "to substantially lower the overall cost to government" of its 8000 desktops during a refresh in June.

Making the switch
Within the private sector Linux desktop deployments -- at least those that have been publicly revealed -- remain few and far between. This is somewhat surprising for many observers, given that desktop Linux is cheaper to install, comes with a free integrated suite of productivity tools, and is generally held to have as capable a user interface as Windows.

Why do so many companies have an ongoing aversion to desktop Linux? There is no single answer but anecdotal discussions repeatedly suggest that perceived issues of risk may be Linux's major problem: many companies see it as complex and difficult to use, fear they don't have the right support skills in-house, or don't trust the perceived lack of accountability that comes from having more than 200 different Linux distributions to choose from.

Such perceptions are short-sighted: companies such as Red Hat and Novell, which bought Red Hat competitor SuSE in 2003, are backing the charge on to the desktop with enterprise-level support reinforced by partners such as IBM and HP that are already well respected by all kinds of businesses.

Having or delivering the right skills and maintaining strong internal advocacy is of course important in any Linux deployment. With a growing range of skilled local integrators providing on-the-ground support it is now easier than ever to find people who speak Linux fluently enough to get it up and running who can also teach your technical staff to keep it that way.

Microsoft's five-year gap in updating XP has given Linux developers a huge window of opportunity to catch up, and they have made the most of it.
Application availability is another frequently cited reason why companies will not put Linux on the desktop: certainly, multimedia applications from Adobe and other producers are still lacking. However, a growing base of open-source and commercial Linux software means that companies turned off of Linux because of such arguments may be repeating an urban legend rather than actually considering their real needs and options.

"In actually looking at Linux on the desktop, we've found that it's much less of the actual desktop than it is a discussion about the applications our customers are using," says Ivan Kladnig, Linux business development manager within the Software Group of IBM Australia-New Zealand, which is looking to establish a Linux Desktop Centre of Competency in Sydney to encourage customers to give the platform a go. "The office productivity tool set, e-mail, collaboration, and other parts of the software stack are really what are important."

No matter what your requirements on the desktop, the benchmark for Linux acceptance is going to be how well users make the transition to OpenOffice, which in its recently released 2.0 version is the safest alternative to Office. Talk with a company that has actually implemented OpenOffice -- whose acceptance will be essential to most desktop Linux deployments -- and anecdotal evidence is likely to suggest that most users, with the right training, quickly come to grips with OpenOffice and find it quite acceptable.

"Most of our users are happy to run OpenOffice, which runs natively on Solaris and could just as easily run on Linux," says Andrew Buckeridge, IT director with Perth-based building materials, construction, contracting, and transport company BGC, which abandoned Windows desktops more than four years ago. The company now runs Sun Microsystems Sun Ray thin clients that are based on Sun's Solaris operating system and it runs OpenOffice as the key productivity suite.

OpenOffice may be the most popular open-source productivity application but it's not the only one relevant to corporate needs. Capable open-source standards like the GIMP image editor and Evolution e-mail client, paired with a growing range of point solutions from independent and commercial developers, offer enough functionality to let most companies replace 80 percent of Windows desktops without users even knowing the difference.

A technological safety net
It's important for companies to realise that installing Linux a desktop does not mean a company must go cold turkey on Windows. Even if half of a company's desktops were changed to Linux, lower ongoing management costs could well support an adequate business case to justify making the switch; over time, advanced users' needs, such as process-specific macros and niche Windows-only applications, can be addressed individually.

However, such applications are becoming fewer and fewer with the exception of Microsoft Office; most commonly-used enterprise applications now have a Web interface that renders perfectly well on a Linux desktop. Furthermore, it's worth remembering that even those applications that simply must run under Windows can still be offered to Linux users using time-tested thin-client technology that runs the applications on a Windows server for access from remote desktops.

This approach has proved quite successful for BGC, which despite its open-source conversion realised that many users would still require advanced functionality. Six dedicated servers deliver Microsoft Office and several other applications to users using the X terminal capabilities built into Solaris. Windows applications run in a window alongside the Solaris-hosted tools, giving users the advantages of a stable desktop that also provides access to the applications they need.

"The biggest benefit of this platform is the ability to deploy a much more robust operating environment to users, which translates to a better service level for users without an increase in IT staff," says Buckeridge. "There is some reduction in administration, and we have been able to contain our costs and support many more users [than with Windows]. If we were to do it with Linux, it would be much easier to do today."

The process was not without its troubles: although Microsoft applications are generally written to work well using thin-client software, not all third-party applications are so forgiving. Buckeridge says a few of the company's third-party Windows applications didn't take well to thin-client delivery, with one of the company's Windows 2000 servers "dying".

A coming upgrade to a pair of 64-bit Windows Server 2003 systems is expected to improve the situation but BGC's experience highlights the importance of testing: "It's important that if you're moving to a terminal server environment, you drastically limit which applications are in that environment," Buckeridge warns.

Virtualisation is another way of bridging the gap between Linux and Windows, with products such as VMWare and Xen allowing the installation of Windows under Linux; since those Windows instances are virtual and can be destroyed and recreated at any time, it's possible to carefully manage them to prevent bad behaviour. This approach was used by the NSW Judicial Commission, which recently built its 600,000-page JIRS document management system around Linux desktops and used VMWare to deliver Windows applications to the users.

Linux vendors recognise the potential use of thin-client technology to ease migration from Windows to Linux, and most major distributions include thin-client software. Novell's SuSE Linux Desktop even has two: an open-source client that connects to open-source VNC, Microsoft RDP and Citrix ICA thin-client servers, and Citrix Systems' own ICA client itself. For companies concerned about application availability under Linux, this broad support means setting up thin-client servers is a viable and practical option to maintain backwards compatibility.

Your future desktop?
For years, the story of Linux on the desktop has been all about catching up with Windows XP. Microsoft's five-year gap in updating XP has given Linux developers a huge window of opportunity and they have made the most of it.

However, the road to Linux desktops is littered with the carcasses of distributions from the likes of Mandrake, Debian, Corel, Lindows, and others that have niche followings but lack the enterprise credentials needed to hit the big time. Novell and Red Hat are clearly the only companies with the enterprise credentials to push Linux onto corporate desktops en masse -- yet even as Novell readies its Linux Desktop 10 for early-2006 release and Red Hat's Fedora distribution continues that company's desktop push, the release of Windows Vista could change the game all over again.

With a completely redesigned user interface, application structure and infrastructure, Vista could be a threat to Linux on two fronts. Firstly, since Windows XP has been the target for Linux developers for so long, Vista's new structure will send them back to the drawing boards to replicate the user experience it provides (although it must be noted that the user-interface aspect of this challenge may be easier since those developers have already taken some inspiration from Mac OS X, which Vista is copying heavily).

The second potential showstopper: with well-established versions of Linux and Mac OS X no doubt studied heavily by Microsoft during Vista's design, it is possible that that distribution could offer enough reliability and capabilities that enterprises are willing to shell out for it. Certainly, highly touted remote management features are expected to make Vista much easier to manage in enterprise environments -- an issue that is frequently cited as a shortcoming of Windows.

Linux supporters are wasting no time in working to take advantage of the coming desktop operating system inflection point. Reflecting their strength-in-numbers approach, Adobe Systems, IBM, Intel, HP, Novell, RealNetworks, and Red Hat, recently put their weight behind the Free Standards Group's Linux Standard Base project, which is seeking to keep Linux unified even as distribution developers continue working to differentiate it from Windows.

That's easier said than done, says Max McLaren, Red Hat's general manager for Australia-New Zealand, who concedes that the dizzying growth of server-side Linux has meant that desktop Linux "is not my priority. It's very difficult to make leaps and bounds by innovating on the desktop these days," he explains.

"All of that innovation happened a long time ago, and -- apart from features like voice integration and so on -- we're never going to see dramatic improvements in desktop productivity. We will slowly bite off people tired of paying the sorts of sums they pay to Microsoft for an environment where they use very few of the features, but there's inertia because people are using Windows and don't want to change."

There are some small wins: in December, for example, rental company Kennards Hire took a major step towards Linux with what could become a 400-desktop rollout of Fedora Linux, as well as a trial of Linux-based point-of-sale terminals at more than 80 outlets nationwide.

Ultimately, the decision to move to Linux desktops will be made only when early trials prove that the operating system is effective enough to service each company's current business needs. While many companies will no doubt decide that Windows Vista is still the right path for them, the coming imperative for companies to review their desktop strategy could well chisel out a few market share percentage points for Linux.

"The fact that there are alternatives means people now need to think about Linux and ask whether it's applicable to their organisation," says Paul Kangro, applied technology strategist with Novell. "If, from a due diligence standpoint, you can't say you've evaluated the options you haven't done the right thing by your company's shareholders. There are going to be some transitional stages that people go through, but at some point, Linux is going to meet all your requirements. I suspect that for most organisations, it's already there -- and has been for some time."

Talkback

Linux beating Windows? Big Call...

The article described: "Furthermore, Linux's lower resource requirements may allow it to run on existing desktops that will need replacement for any upgrade to Windows Vista."

I believe that this is the only characteristic that Linux may get the go ahead. Most PC's (Greater than 500MHz) generally run todays business applications with little or no problems. If you get a Pentium III-500 with 256MB of RAM, you are set when it comes to Windows XP, Office 2003, Microsoft .NET 2003 etc...

When Windows Vista's requirements are beyond that of what "standard" onboard video cards provided in Motherboards (ie 32/64MB shared with RAM), and the fact that an AGP video card (starting from $80RRP), wouldn't the IT departments be having fun arguing their case that the general workstation needs a new 128MB Video Card, another stick of 512MB of RAM, just to boot Windows Vista. Take into account that Office 2005 is also completely changed (GUI wise) and there goes the 2006 ICT budget.

Although I am a linux supporter, in the business workplace, you need to be able to rely on proven technology, and Microsoft is proven, reliable technology. When Office 2003 and Windows XP Service Pack 2 came out, I really thought how good Microsoft actually is. I can't think of a more easier, more productive combination of software. To change that is only going to worsen people's views.

Anyway, Linux will NEVER dominate the PC market, Microsoft just has too many fingers in too many pies to lose their dominant position

Orb!terOrb!ter January 10th, 2006
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"Proven, reliable technology", XP SP2

"Technology" Windows may be, but "proven, reliable"... well, it mostly is now, but certainly it hasn't been that way for an overly long time.

About your comments regarding XP SP2:
If the SP2 transition cannot be described to have been an absolute NIGHTMARE for many IT departments, then I really don't know how to put it differently. Failed upgrades, way too many third-party programs breaking left and right due to many very low-level API changes for increased security, ...

Microsoft certainly has become much better due to increased heat by Linux competition, but it's still not entirely rosy in Microsoft land.

AnonymousAnonymous January 10th, 2006
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Not so sure about that

Windows will dominate and continue to do so, but I think that Microsoft will either change its ways or die. Why that?

Vista comes with a two years delay and without several planned features for a reason: closed source development and monolithic engeneering has come to its limits. Opensource development does not only integrate the whole process of development more concise, it is also an investment for the future, because the code is not lost, nor locked away.

I am quite confident that Linux will continue to grow, just because you have a Darwinistic approach of coding implemented that proved very very effective in developing both universal and specifically adapted "solutions" to the question called life.

Regarding MS in this respect and the word "dinosour" springs into mind. They were big, they were strong, they dominated the earth, ... they died out because of a single event (or say a few events). If MS does not adapt, it will die out as well.

Linux has changed peoples minds, it has created a momentum and it has assured that its DNA will be propagated. Even when Linux was bearly usable and lacked a lot more features that it does today, people were constantly imroving it up to the point that it makes a good working day-to-day desktop (I'd personally say that my KDE desktop and Libranet installation is twice as powerfull as the XP Desktop). Linux has created an environment of giving and sharing that is beyond any example.

I wouldn't even wonder if MS once releases a new version of Windows to the public for free, you might buy support slots in case of any problems. It'll profit from public bug-fixing and you may buy some additional apps. The operating system will be nothing else thatn a marketplace or a platform to sell additional value for it.

Finally, why Vista? Unless they stop security support, the users can surf, mail, work as they did before for at least another 5 years. What do you do today write letters, listen to music, watch videos and DVDs, make some in most cases rather basic image editing ... unless you aren't a games-addict of a video-producer why would you even need 3D graphic acceleration? Many people I know could do without.

Vista comes with no real need, it will be a welcome change of "wallpaper" plus it will address some flaws of XP. I am curious of the new concepts and design of Vista, will it be enough innovation for your money?

Sadly it will come preinstalled as usual and by this penetrate the marked, i doubt that it would do so if it were sold seperately, with XP SP2 at half the price or Linux for free ...

ben

benqbenq January 10th, 2006
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Linux better than Windows? Big Call...

It's rather interesting that people are claiming Linux is better than Windows. This statement needs further looking into.

For Security, Linux is much better than Windows because Linux isn't targeted as much as Windows is. Also, because Linux is Open Source, any bugs can be fixed by anyone.

For Compatibility, Windows is much better as 90% of shelved items are designed for Windows only. .NET, Macromedia Suite, Adobe Suite are not ported to Linux yet - and I use these myself alot.

For Speed, Windows is better. Windows doesn't have the tendancy to eat your RAM up. Windows XP can run happily on 128MB of RAM after an installation. Linux runs s#ithouse on 128MB of RAM, and often chokes to the point where it's quicker to press the reset button.

For ease of use, Windows wins hands down. Try explaining to people who use IT because they have to that usr, bin, mnt, sys, etc, home, "root", etc... are like the directory listings when you double click on c:\. The concept of setting up "root" doesn't go down well for the home user.

For Price, Linux wins by a RRP of $399+. Nothing more needs to be said.

Don't get me wrong, I think that Linux has the potential to take over, but more of the bigger developers need to look at developing programs and hardware so that it's 100% Linux and Windows compatible. Remember the days where most hardware was 100% IBM PC compatible?

Not only that, but Windows Vista's new 3D desktop, their completely redesigned GUI in office 2005, new security flaws etc...

If Linux is to take over, now's the time to hit them when the general PC owner with their Pentium III's, IV's and AMD Athlon see no need to upgrade their already powerful enough computer, because their current system already authors DVD's, creates letters, plays games and browses the internet.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 11th, 2006
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What are you talking about ?

Linux does not use more ram than windows.....quite the opposite..I boot linux up and run it just fine on 4 meg ram.
There is absolutely NO WAY that Linux uses more memory than XP, you're doing something wrong.
I run Photoshop 7 just fine on my Linux box, along with most of the Adobe suite... use Crossover.
Windows has terrible ease-of-use... all the /root /var /usr is a furphy, it's like explaining registry hives to your Granny, it's just never going to happen. Windows is much more complicated than Linux.
Linux is more secure because it's built that way. Even if Windows had 1% of the market it will always be less secure than Linux because it's just not BUILT RIGHT.

MustaphaMustapha January 12th, 2006
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RE: Linux running on 4MB of RAM?

Well, I have tested a variety of Linux distributions on many different combinations, and my test results show that Linux is much slower than windows, and it needs more RAM to function. Why do you think on a small amount of RAM that they have huge Swap drives? You must be running some custom version of Linux that has nothing more than just the Shell system to run on just 4MB of RAM.

OpenOffice.org on Windows XP boots in 4 seconds. On the same machine under Mandrake, Fedora Core, SuSE, Ubuntu etc... it's about 20-40 seconds.

I never said that Windows was built right, or that Windows had better security than Linux, but Linux would be just as vulnerable as Windows if Linux was the dominant system! Hackers, Virus Writers etc would find a way to break your system just as they do with Windows.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 12th, 2006
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Here we go again....

"Well, I have tested a variety of Linux distributions on many different combinations, and my test results show that Linux is much slower than windows, and it needs more RAM to function. Why do you think on a small amount of RAM that they have huge Swap drives? You must be running some custom version of Linux that has nothing more than just the Shell system to run on just 4MB of RAM."

And I have tested every version of Windows ever released and they are all much, much slower than the equivalent age Linux distro. Why else would they need to use up so much RAM to even boot and have such huge swap files? My 64meg Apache servers runs a lovely 64 meg swap partition just fine while any XP desktop you care to mention always swallows hundreds of megs of space.
"OpenOffice.org on Windows XP boots in 4 seconds. On the same machine under Mandrake, Fedora Core, SuSE, Ubuntu etc... it's about 20-40 seconds."
Funny, it boots on Suse in about 8 seconds, it takes over 30 seconds on my XP box.
"I never said that Windows was built right, or that Windows had better security than Linux, but Linux would be just as vulnerable as Windows if Linux was the dominant system! Hackers, Virus Writers etc would find a way to break your system just as they do with Windows."
How????... I have never EVER even HEARD of ANYONE EVER having their Linux/MACOSX/BSD etc system compromised by just looking at an email or visiting a website, yet this happens MILLIONS of times each day with Windows machines. Unix has been around for 30 years....the hackers should have been all over it by now, if it was possible.
Face it, Windows is just Swiss cheese and trivial to exploit, *nix is not. Linux is more secure because it's built better from the ground up, it's just that simple.

BillBill January 15th, 2006
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Linux never hacked?

just one of many supporting documents: http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/0,2000061733,39116229,00.htm

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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Mate, you're shooting yourself in the foot there..

even the comments to that story you posted the link too support the anti-MS stand.
Poor methodology...
http://www.zdnet.com.au/forums/0,39029293,39116229-20103257o,00.htm

Didn't you even read what you linked too ??? This guys says it well..

Some old, same old, nothing to see here...you're like those Creationist guys who stubbornly refuse to accept what's happening all around them and what they can see with their own eyes and have to resort to spin, lies , deciept and deception to bolster their weak positions. I just did my own study* and found that my 100 linux servers were a gazillion billion times more insecure than my powered-down Windows 2k3 machine with no ram or cpu in it (it does have the OEM sticker on the side of the case though) !! Can MS pay me a heap of money for that one too ????





*Disclaimer:Study does not take into consideration hardware or software factors.

pengypengy January 23rd, 2006
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Windows 95 Specifications on the Microsoft Website...

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=138349

This states the following:

Personal computer with a 386DX or higher processor (486 recommended)
• 4 megabytes (MB) of memory (8 MB recommended)
• Typical hard disk space required to upgrade to Windows 95: 35-40 MB The actual requirement varies depending on the features you choose to install.
• Typical hard disk space required to install Windows 95 on a clean system: 50-55 MB The actual requirement varies depending on the features you choose to install.
• One 3.5-inch high-density floppy disk drive
• VGA or higher resolution (256-color SVGA recommended)

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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Mate, you're shooting yourself in the foot there..

even the comments to that story you posted the link too support the anti-MS stand.
Poor methodology...
http://www.zdnet.com.au/forums/0,39029293,39116229-20103257o,00.htm

Didn't you even read what you linked too ??? This guys says it well..

Some old, same old, nothing to see here...you're like those Creationist guys who stubbornly refuse to accept what's happening all around them and what they can see with their own eyes and have to resort to spin, lies , deciept and deception to bolster their weak positions. I just did my own study* and found that my 100 linux servers were a gazillion billion times more insecure than my powered-down Windows 2k3 machine with no ram or cpu in it (it does have the OEM sticker on the side of the case though) !! Can MS pay me a heap of money for that one too ????





*Disclaimer:Study does not take into consideration hardware or software factors.

pengypengy January 23rd, 2006
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Linux never hacked?

just one of many supporting documents: http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/0,2000061733,39116229,00.htm

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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Windows 95 Specifications on the Microsoft Website...

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=138349

This states the following:

Personal computer with a 386DX or higher processor (486 recommended)
• 4 megabytes (MB) of memory (8 MB recommended)
• Typical hard disk space required to upgrade to Windows 95: 35-40 MB The actual requirement varies depending on the features you choose to install.
• Typical hard disk space required to install Windows 95 on a clean system: 50-55 MB The actual requirement varies depending on the features you choose to install.
• One 3.5-inch high-density floppy disk drive
• VGA or higher resolution (256-color SVGA recommended)

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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Mate, you're shooting yourself in the foot there..

even the comments to that story you posted the link too support the anti-MS stand.
Poor methodology...
http://www.zdnet.com.au/forums/0,39029293,39116229-20103257o,00.htm

Didn't you even read what you linked too ??? This guys says it well..

Some old, same old, nothing to see here...you're like those Creationist guys who stubbornly refuse to accept what's happening all around them and what they can see with their own eyes and have to resort to spin, lies , deciept and deception to bolster their weak positions. I just did my own study* and found that my 100 linux servers were a gazillion billion times more insecure than my powered-down Windows 2k3 machine with no ram or cpu in it (it does have the OEM sticker on the side of the case though) !! Can MS pay me a heap of money for that one too ????





*Disclaimer:Study does not take into consideration hardware or software factors.

pengypengy January 23rd, 2006
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Objection to your post

You said: Linux does not use more ram than windows.....quite the opposite..I boot linux up and run it just fine on 4 meg ram.

My Response: So did Dos Shell, DOS, Windows 3.1 and Windows 95

You said: There is absolutely NO WAY that Linux uses more memory than XP, you're doing something wrong.

My Response: So, running KDE3.3, Gnome 2.6, Firefox, Music playing in the background and Apache running in the background is doing something wrong???

You said: I run Photoshop 7 just fine on my Linux box, along with most of the Adobe suite...

My Response: Not on 4MB of RAM you don't.

You said: use Crossover.

My Response: Why would you use Crossover? You are just bringing the bugs from Windows into Linux. Besides - the software is still not made for Linux.

You said: Windows has terrible ease-of-use... all the /root /var /usr is a furphy, it's like explaining registry hives to your Granny, it's just never going to happen. Windows is much more complicated than Linux.

My Response: Not at all. When CD's are designed with Autorun, a home user puts their CD in, click Set Up or Install or Run, and it works. Also, I would tell my granny that C:\My Documents is where your documents are stored. I wouldn't try explaining that your documents are stored in /home/usr/documents/

You said: Linux is more secure because it's built that way. Even if Windows had 1% of the market it will always be less secure than Linux because it's just not BUILT RIGHT.

My Response: If linux was more dominant, you would have hackers and virus writers exploiting Linux - Not Windows. Not only that, but we would be giving Windows a helping hand because they are the poor guy's who need support.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 12th, 2006
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And again.

Your points in order.
DOS, WINDOWS 3.1 are not 32 bit operating systems, Win95 will not function in 4 meg of ram. *bzzzzzt*, try again.

KDE3.3, Gnome 2.6, Firefox, Music will NOT take up anywhere as much ram as XP with SQlSERVER running, 3 instances of VMWare ruiing Win2003Server and Oracle, Media player and PowerDVD running plus CuBAse and Doom3 (getting the picture yet?) Don't strawman the argument by adding on all the applications and fancy effects to the equation.
Why use crossover?, why not?..why do you use any myriad of third party tools? It works, its good.
To install Openoffice on Linux you stick the CD and and click run, to install Enemy Territory you atick the CD in and click run, to Install Doom3 you stick the CD in and click run, to install .....etc etc...getting the picture yet? And you didn't understand the path to the Windows my documents, what is easier /home/user/My Documents or C:/Documents and Settings/user/My Documents???Apart from the fact the Windows one is longer and harder to find they are both on the bloody desktop anyway.
Linux is inherently more secure than Windows, in fact pretty much anything is more secure than Windows. The idea that other platforms aren't as attacked due to less market share is garbage. Apache + Linuxhas far more market share than IIS + Windows yet less exploits. There are efefctively NO in-the-wild viruses for Linux yet Windows has TENS OF THOUSANDS. No-one even MAKES anti-virus for linux (apart to scan files that go to Windows machines via Linux email servers/SAMBA servers etc just to protect WINDOWS boxes down the line).
Windows is Swiss cheese...don't bother looking for those people who got their *nix boxes infected by merely previewing an email or looking at a web site, you just won't find them. Ask around though, EVERYONE who uses Windows falls victim eventually, EVERYONE, no exceptions.

Mr BlackMr Black January 15th, 2006
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4megs of RAM!?

My wrist watch needs more than 4 megs of RAM to keep time :P

anonanon January 17th, 2006
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who cares about RAM!

Sometimes, we get too caught up in a millisecond increase in performance when developing software applications. And the same goes for RAM usage. Practically every computer has 256 or 512 MB RAM now (new ones anyway), if not more! So, why discuss if something can run on 4MB of RAM or not. I am never going to use a computer with 4MB of RAM and nor are most home users so no point in discussing this :).
Though, I don't know about 4MB but I used to run windows 95 on 8MB of RAM when I bought my first computer.

Anshuman SinghAnshuman Singh January 17th, 2006
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who cares about RAM!

Sometimes, we get too caught up in a millisecond increase in performance when developing software applications. And the same goes for RAM usage. Practically every computer has 256 or 512 MB RAM now (new ones anyway), if not more! So, why discuss if something can run on 4MB of RAM or not. I am never going to use a computer with 4MB of RAM and nor are most home users so no point in discussing this :).
Though, I don't know about 4MB but I used to run windows 95 on 8MB of RAM when I bought my first computer.

Anshuman SinghAnshuman Singh January 17th, 2006
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Windows 95 will run on 4MB of RAM

I have Windows 95a running on 4MB of RAM.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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That is totally not the point.

YOu mean you've painfully coaxed it into giving you a desktop after 45 minutes of disk thrashing.

You cannot do anything meaningful.
You machine is effectively non-functional.

Make it boot with 512k of RAM then, or boot it off a floppy ... go on, dare you.

Mr blackMr black January 23rd, 2006
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512k of RAM

I have to agree that Windows 95 won't load on 512k of RAM, but then again, there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM thus dismissing your earlier points about comparing the equivalent Linux/Windows. You are comparing Linux in the CLI form to Windows in the GUI form. You must remember that DOS can boot into 512k of RAM and be enough to run Dosshell.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 3rd, 2006
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No no no..

You can run a full GUI with 512k RAM, look at the Commodore Amiga for example. Full pre-emptive multitasking in 512k.
Also, DOS is a pale, pathetic imitation of any of the decent *nix shells.
Windows technology is simplistic, bloated and primitive, it lacks any sophistication.
There is no dount we would be 10 years ahead of where we are now computing-wise if it wasn't for the Wintel duopoly.

WorkbenchWorkbench February 6th, 2006
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yes yes yes...

Actually you misquoted what I said... "there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM"

Windows 95 uses a really simplistic Point and Click system with a 2 button mouse, access to CD-ROM. I know that Commodore had some GUI program that looked like Mac OS 7 or something with an office package. But, why the discussion on RAM I would consider obselete? People are comparing the entire Windows OS to the Linux kernal. Yeah, the linux kernal kicks Window's **** but when it comes to speed with things like SuSE, Red Hat - the default installation of Windows will kick **** compared to the default installation of most linux distros...

On topic with Vista: With a Video card required, mega amounts of ram etc... I believe that Linux will be much quicker for a short time until a Linux distro made to compete with Vista is created.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 6th, 2006
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maybe maybe maybe......

Commodore has a full pre-emptive multitasking OS with a very nice GUI, full screen video playback at 25fps, stereo sound etc etc that ran in 512K RAM under a 7MhZ cpu and was available in 1985!

The Windows PC is so backwards it's not funny. Other platforms could do the same job with 1/10th the cpu and RAM that the PC could. Nowadays we just throw insane amounts of memory and cycles at the problem but just imagine if your current spec machine was 10 times more efficient using the same hardware!

That is the legacy of Wintel, 10 years of stagnation.

As to your second point, Vista is already dead in the water and it's not even released yet !

pengypengy February 8th, 2006
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maybe maybe maybe......

Commodore has a full pre-emptive multitasking OS with a very nice GUI, full screen video playback at 25fps, stereo sound etc etc that ran in 512K RAM under a 7MhZ cpu and was available in 1985!

The Windows PC is so backwards it's not funny. Other platforms could do the same job with 1/10th the cpu and RAM that the PC could. Nowadays we just throw insane amounts of memory and cycles at the problem but just imagine if your current spec machine was 10 times more efficient using the same hardware!

That is the legacy of Wintel, 10 years of stagnation.

As to your second point, Vista is already dead in the water and it's not even released yet !

pengypengy February 8th, 2006
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yes yes yes...

Actually you misquoted what I said... "there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM"

Windows 95 uses a really simplistic Point and Click system with a 2 button mouse, access to CD-ROM. I know that Commodore had some GUI program that looked like Mac OS 7 or something with an office package. But, why the discussion on RAM I would consider obselete? People are comparing the entire Windows OS to the Linux kernal. Yeah, the linux kernal kicks Window's **** but when it comes to speed with things like SuSE, Red Hat - the default installation of Windows will kick **** compared to the default installation of most linux distros...

On topic with Vista: With a Video card required, mega amounts of ram etc... I believe that Linux will be much quicker for a short time until a Linux distro made to compete with Vista is created.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 6th, 2006
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maybe maybe maybe......

Commodore has a full pre-emptive multitasking OS with a very nice GUI, full screen video playback at 25fps, stereo sound etc etc that ran in 512K RAM under a 7MhZ cpu and was available in 1985!

The Windows PC is so backwards it's not funny. Other platforms could do the same job with 1/10th the cpu and RAM that the PC could. Nowadays we just throw insane amounts of memory and cycles at the problem but just imagine if your current spec machine was 10 times more efficient using the same hardware!

That is the legacy of Wintel, 10 years of stagnation.

As to your second point, Vista is already dead in the water and it's not even released yet !

pengypengy February 8th, 2006
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No no no..

You can run a full GUI with 512k RAM, look at the Commodore Amiga for example. Full pre-emptive multitasking in 512k.
Also, DOS is a pale, pathetic imitation of any of the decent *nix shells.
Windows technology is simplistic, bloated and primitive, it lacks any sophistication.
There is no dount we would be 10 years ahead of where we are now computing-wise if it wasn't for the Wintel duopoly.

WorkbenchWorkbench February 6th, 2006
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yes yes yes...

Actually you misquoted what I said... "there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM"

Windows 95 uses a really simplistic Point and Click system with a 2 button mouse, access to CD-ROM. I know that Commodore had some GUI program that looked like Mac OS 7 or something with an office package. But, why the discussion on RAM I would consider obselete? People are comparing the entire Windows OS to the Linux kernal. Yeah, the linux kernal kicks Window's **** but when it comes to speed with things like SuSE, Red Hat - the default installation of Windows will kick **** compared to the default installation of most linux distros...

On topic with Vista: With a Video card required, mega amounts of ram etc... I believe that Linux will be much quicker for a short time until a Linux distro made to compete with Vista is created.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 6th, 2006
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maybe maybe maybe......

Commodore has a full pre-emptive multitasking OS with a very nice GUI, full screen video playback at 25fps, stereo sound etc etc that ran in 512K RAM under a 7MhZ cpu and was available in 1985!

The Windows PC is so backwards it's not funny. Other platforms could do the same job with 1/10th the cpu and RAM that the PC could. Nowadays we just throw insane amounts of memory and cycles at the problem but just imagine if your current spec machine was 10 times more efficient using the same hardware!

That is the legacy of Wintel, 10 years of stagnation.

As to your second point, Vista is already dead in the water and it's not even released yet !

pengypengy February 8th, 2006
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512k of RAM

I have to agree that Windows 95 won't load on 512k of RAM, but then again, there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM thus dismissing your earlier points about comparing the equivalent Linux/Windows. You are comparing Linux in the CLI form to Windows in the GUI form. You must remember that DOS can boot into 512k of RAM and be enough to run Dosshell.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 3rd, 2006
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No no no..

You can run a full GUI with 512k RAM, look at the Commodore Amiga for example. Full pre-emptive multitasking in 512k.
Also, DOS is a pale, pathetic imitation of any of the decent *nix shells.
Windows technology is simplistic, bloated and primitive, it lacks any sophistication.
There is no dount we would be 10 years ahead of where we are now computing-wise if it wasn't for the Wintel duopoly.

WorkbenchWorkbench February 6th, 2006
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yes yes yes...

Actually you misquoted what I said... "there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM"

Windows 95 uses a really simplistic Point and Click system with a 2 button mouse, access to CD-ROM. I know that Commodore had some GUI program that looked like Mac OS 7 or something with an office package. But, why the discussion on RAM I would consider obselete? People are comparing the entire Windows OS to the Linux kernal. Yeah, the linux kernal kicks Window's **** but when it comes to speed with things like SuSE, Red Hat - the default installation of Windows will kick **** compared to the default installation of most linux distros...

On topic with Vista: With a Video card required, mega amounts of ram etc... I believe that Linux will be much quicker for a short time until a Linux distro made to compete with Vista is created.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 6th, 2006
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maybe maybe maybe......

Commodore has a full pre-emptive multitasking OS with a very nice GUI, full screen video playback at 25fps, stereo sound etc etc that ran in 512K RAM under a 7MhZ cpu and was available in 1985!

The Windows PC is so backwards it's not funny. Other platforms could do the same job with 1/10th the cpu and RAM that the PC could. Nowadays we just throw insane amounts of memory and cycles at the problem but just imagine if your current spec machine was 10 times more efficient using the same hardware!

That is the legacy of Wintel, 10 years of stagnation.

As to your second point, Vista is already dead in the water and it's not even released yet !

pengypengy February 8th, 2006
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That is totally not the point.

YOu mean you've painfully coaxed it into giving you a desktop after 45 minutes of disk thrashing.

You cannot do anything meaningful.
You machine is effectively non-functional.

Make it boot with 512k of RAM then, or boot it off a floppy ... go on, dare you.

Mr blackMr black January 23rd, 2006
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512k of RAM

I have to agree that Windows 95 won't load on 512k of RAM, but then again, there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM thus dismissing your earlier points about comparing the equivalent Linux/Windows. You are comparing Linux in the CLI form to Windows in the GUI form. You must remember that DOS can boot into 512k of RAM and be enough to run Dosshell.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 3rd, 2006
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No no no..

You can run a full GUI with 512k RAM, look at the Commodore Amiga for example. Full pre-emptive multitasking in 512k.
Also, DOS is a pale, pathetic imitation of any of the decent *nix shells.
Windows technology is simplistic, bloated and primitive, it lacks any sophistication.
There is no dount we would be 10 years ahead of where we are now computing-wise if it wasn't for the Wintel duopoly.

WorkbenchWorkbench February 6th, 2006
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yes yes yes...

Actually you misquoted what I said... "there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM"

Windows 95 uses a really simplistic Point and Click system with a 2 button mouse, access to CD-ROM. I know that Commodore had some GUI program that looked like Mac OS 7 or something with an office package. But, why the discussion on RAM I would consider obselete? People are comparing the entire Windows OS to the Linux kernal. Yeah, the linux kernal kicks Window's **** but when it comes to speed with things like SuSE, Red Hat - the default installation of Windows will kick **** compared to the default installation of most linux distros...

On topic with Vista: With a Video card required, mega amounts of ram etc... I believe that Linux will be much quicker for a short time until a Linux distro made to compete with Vista is created.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 6th, 2006
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maybe maybe maybe......

Commodore has a full pre-emptive multitasking OS with a very nice GUI, full screen video playback at 25fps, stereo sound etc etc that ran in 512K RAM under a 7MhZ cpu and was available in 1985!

The Windows PC is so backwards it's not funny. Other platforms could do the same job with 1/10th the cpu and RAM that the PC could. Nowadays we just throw insane amounts of memory and cycles at the problem but just imagine if your current spec machine was 10 times more efficient using the same hardware!

That is the legacy of Wintel, 10 years of stagnation.

As to your second point, Vista is already dead in the water and it's not even released yet !

pengypengy February 8th, 2006
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4megs of RAM!?

My wrist watch needs more than 4 megs of RAM to keep time :P

anonanon January 17th, 2006
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who cares about RAM!

Sometimes, we get too caught up in a millisecond increase in performance when developing software applications. And the same goes for RAM usage. Practically every computer has 256 or 512 MB RAM now (new ones anyway), if not more! So, why discuss if something can run on 4MB of RAM or not. I am never going to use a computer with 4MB of RAM and nor are most home users so no point in discussing this :).
Though, I don't know about 4MB but I used to run windows 95 on 8MB of RAM when I bought my first computer.

Anshuman SinghAnshuman Singh January 17th, 2006
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Windows 95 will run on 4MB of RAM

I have Windows 95a running on 4MB of RAM.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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That is totally not the point.

YOu mean you've painfully coaxed it into giving you a desktop after 45 minutes of disk thrashing.

You cannot do anything meaningful.
You machine is effectively non-functional.

Make it boot with 512k of RAM then, or boot it off a floppy ... go on, dare you.

Mr blackMr black January 23rd, 2006
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512k of RAM

I have to agree that Windows 95 won't load on 512k of RAM, but then again, there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM thus dismissing your earlier points about comparing the equivalent Linux/Windows. You are comparing Linux in the CLI form to Windows in the GUI form. You must remember that DOS can boot into 512k of RAM and be enough to run Dosshell.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 3rd, 2006
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No no no..

You can run a full GUI with 512k RAM, look at the Commodore Amiga for example. Full pre-emptive multitasking in 512k.
Also, DOS is a pale, pathetic imitation of any of the decent *nix shells.
Windows technology is simplistic, bloated and primitive, it lacks any sophistication.
There is no dount we would be 10 years ahead of where we are now computing-wise if it wasn't for the Wintel duopoly.

WorkbenchWorkbench February 6th, 2006
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yes yes yes...

Actually you misquoted what I said... "there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM"

Windows 95 uses a really simplistic Point and Click system with a 2 button mouse, access to CD-ROM. I know that Commodore had some GUI program that looked like Mac OS 7 or something with an office package. But, why the discussion on RAM I would consider obselete? People are comparing the entire Windows OS to the Linux kernal. Yeah, the linux kernal kicks Window's **** but when it comes to speed with things like SuSE, Red Hat - the default installation of Windows will kick **** compared to the default installation of most linux distros...

On topic with Vista: With a Video card required, mega amounts of ram etc... I believe that Linux will be much quicker for a short time until a Linux distro made to compete with Vista is created.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 6th, 2006
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maybe maybe maybe......

Commodore has a full pre-emptive multitasking OS with a very nice GUI, full screen video playback at 25fps, stereo sound etc etc that ran in 512K RAM under a 7MhZ cpu and was available in 1985!

The Windows PC is so backwards it's not funny. Other platforms could do the same job with 1/10th the cpu and RAM that the PC could. Nowadays we just throw insane amounts of memory and cycles at the problem but just imagine if your current spec machine was 10 times more efficient using the same hardware!

That is the legacy of Wintel, 10 years of stagnation.

As to your second point, Vista is already dead in the water and it's not even released yet !

pengypengy February 8th, 2006
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Here we go again....

"Well, I have tested a variety of Linux distributions on many different combinations, and my test results show that Linux is much slower than windows, and it needs more RAM to function. Why do you think on a small amount of RAM that they have huge Swap drives? You must be running some custom version of Linux that has nothing more than just the Shell system to run on just 4MB of RAM."

And I have tested every version of Windows ever released and they are all much, much slower than the equivalent age Linux distro. Why else would they need to use up so much RAM to even boot and have such huge swap files? My 64meg Apache servers runs a lovely 64 meg swap partition just fine while any XP desktop you care to mention always swallows hundreds of megs of space.
"OpenOffice.org on Windows XP boots in 4 seconds. On the same machine under Mandrake, Fedora Core, SuSE, Ubuntu etc... it's about 20-40 seconds."
Funny, it boots on Suse in about 8 seconds, it takes over 30 seconds on my XP box.
"I never said that Windows was built right, or that Windows had better security than Linux, but Linux would be just as vulnerable as Windows if Linux was the dominant system! Hackers, Virus Writers etc would find a way to break your system just as they do with Windows."
How????... I have never EVER even HEARD of ANYONE EVER having their Linux/MACOSX/BSD etc system compromised by just looking at an email or visiting a website, yet this happens MILLIONS of times each day with Windows machines. Unix has been around for 30 years....the hackers should have been all over it by now, if it was possible.
Face it, Windows is just Swiss cheese and trivial to exploit, *nix is not. Linux is more secure because it's built better from the ground up, it's just that simple.

BillBill January 15th, 2006
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And again.

Your points in order.
DOS, WINDOWS 3.1 are not 32 bit operating systems, Win95 will not function in 4 meg of ram. *bzzzzzt*, try again.

KDE3.3, Gnome 2.6, Firefox, Music will NOT take up anywhere as much ram as XP with SQlSERVER running, 3 instances of VMWare ruiing Win2003Server and Oracle, Media player and PowerDVD running plus CuBAse and Doom3 (getting the picture yet?) Don't strawman the argument by adding on all the applications and fancy effects to the equation.
Why use crossover?, why not?..why do you use any myriad of third party tools? It works, its good.
To install Openoffice on Linux you stick the CD and and click run, to install Enemy Territory you atick the CD in and click run, to Install Doom3 you stick the CD in and click run, to install .....etc etc...getting the picture yet? And you didn't understand the path to the Windows my documents, what is easier /home/user/My Documents or C:/Documents and Settings/user/My Documents???Apart from the fact the Windows one is longer and harder to find they are both on the bloody desktop anyway.
Linux is inherently more secure than Windows, in fact pretty much anything is more secure than Windows. The idea that other platforms aren't as attacked due to less market share is garbage. Apache + Linuxhas far more market share than IIS + Windows yet less exploits. There are efefctively NO in-the-wild viruses for Linux yet Windows has TENS OF THOUSANDS. No-one even MAKES anti-virus for linux (apart to scan files that go to Windows machines via Linux email servers/SAMBA servers etc just to protect WINDOWS boxes down the line).
Windows is Swiss cheese...don't bother looking for those people who got their *nix boxes infected by merely previewing an email or looking at a web site, you just won't find them. Ask around though, EVERYONE who uses Windows falls victim eventually, EVERYONE, no exceptions.

Mr BlackMr Black January 15th, 2006
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4megs of RAM!?

My wrist watch needs more than 4 megs of RAM to keep time :P

anonanon January 17th, 2006
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who cares about RAM!

Sometimes, we get too caught up in a millisecond increase in performance when developing software applications. And the same goes for RAM usage. Practically every computer has 256 or 512 MB RAM now (new ones anyway), if not more! So, why discuss if something can run on 4MB of RAM or not. I am never going to use a computer with 4MB of RAM and nor are most home users so no point in discussing this :).
Though, I don't know about 4MB but I used to run windows 95 on 8MB of RAM when I bought my first computer.

Anshuman SinghAnshuman Singh January 17th, 2006
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Linux never hacked?

just one of many supporting documents: http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/0,2000061733,39116229,00.htm

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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Windows 95 will run on 4MB of RAM

I have Windows 95a running on 4MB of RAM.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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Windows 95 Specifications on the Microsoft Website...

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=138349

This states the following:

Personal computer with a 386DX or higher processor (486 recommended)
• 4 megabytes (MB) of memory (8 MB recommended)
• Typical hard disk space required to upgrade to Windows 95: 35-40 MB The actual requirement varies depending on the features you choose to install.
• Typical hard disk space required to install Windows 95 on a clean system: 50-55 MB The actual requirement varies depending on the features you choose to install.
• One 3.5-inch high-density floppy disk drive
• VGA or higher resolution (256-color SVGA recommended)

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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That is totally not the point.

YOu mean you've painfully coaxed it into giving you a desktop after 45 minutes of disk thrashing.

You cannot do anything meaningful.
You machine is effectively non-functional.

Make it boot with 512k of RAM then, or boot it off a floppy ... go on, dare you.

Mr blackMr black January 23rd, 2006
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Mate, you're shooting yourself in the foot there..

even the comments to that story you posted the link too support the anti-MS stand.
Poor methodology...
http://www.zdnet.com.au/forums/0,39029293,39116229-20103257o,00.htm

Didn't you even read what you linked too ??? This guys says it well..

Some old, same old, nothing to see here...you're like those Creationist guys who stubbornly refuse to accept what's happening all around them and what they can see with their own eyes and have to resort to spin, lies , deciept and deception to bolster their weak positions. I just did my own study* and found that my 100 linux servers were a gazillion billion times more insecure than my powered-down Windows 2k3 machine with no ram or cpu in it (it does have the OEM sticker on the side of the case though) !! Can MS pay me a heap of money for that one too ????





*Disclaimer:Study does not take into consideration hardware or software factors.

pengypengy January 23rd, 2006
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512k of RAM

I have to agree that Windows 95 won't load on 512k of RAM, but then again, there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM thus dismissing your earlier points about comparing the equivalent Linux/Windows. You are comparing Linux in the CLI form to Windows in the GUI form. You must remember that DOS can boot into 512k of RAM and be enough to run Dosshell.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 3rd, 2006
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No no no..

You can run a full GUI with 512k RAM, look at the Commodore Amiga for example. Full pre-emptive multitasking in 512k.
Also, DOS is a pale, pathetic imitation of any of the decent *nix shells.
Windows technology is simplistic, bloated and primitive, it lacks any sophistication.
There is no dount we would be 10 years ahead of where we are now computing-wise if it wasn't for the Wintel duopoly.

WorkbenchWorkbench February 6th, 2006
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yes yes yes...

Actually you misquoted what I said... "there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM"

Windows 95 uses a really simplistic Point and Click system with a 2 button mouse, access to CD-ROM. I know that Commodore had some GUI program that looked like Mac OS 7 or something with an office package. But, why the discussion on RAM I would consider obselete? People are comparing the entire Windows OS to the Linux kernal. Yeah, the linux kernal kicks Window's **** but when it comes to speed with things like SuSE, Red Hat - the default installation of Windows will kick **** compared to the default installation of most linux distros...

On topic with Vista: With a Video card required, mega amounts of ram etc... I believe that Linux will be much quicker for a short time until a Linux distro made to compete with Vista is created.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 6th, 2006
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maybe maybe maybe......

Commodore has a full pre-emptive multitasking OS with a very nice GUI, full screen video playback at 25fps, stereo sound etc etc that ran in 512K RAM under a 7MhZ cpu and was available in 1985!

The Windows PC is so backwards it's not funny. Other platforms could do the same job with 1/10th the cpu and RAM that the PC could. Nowadays we just throw insane amounts of memory and cycles at the problem but just imagine if your current spec machine was 10 times more efficient using the same hardware!

That is the legacy of Wintel, 10 years of stagnation.

As to your second point, Vista is already dead in the water and it's not even released yet !

pengypengy February 8th, 2006
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RE: Linux running on 4MB of RAM?

Well, I have tested a variety of Linux distributions on many different combinations, and my test results show that Linux is much slower than windows, and it needs more RAM to function. Why do you think on a small amount of RAM that they have huge Swap drives? You must be running some custom version of Linux that has nothing more than just the Shell system to run on just 4MB of RAM.

OpenOffice.org on Windows XP boots in 4 seconds. On the same machine under Mandrake, Fedora Core, SuSE, Ubuntu etc... it's about 20-40 seconds.

I never said that Windows was built right, or that Windows had better security than Linux, but Linux would be just as vulnerable as Windows if Linux was the dominant system! Hackers, Virus Writers etc would find a way to break your system just as they do with Windows.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 12th, 2006
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Error in my post

Hi all,

In my above post I said:

For ease of use, Windows wins hands down. Try explaining to people who use IT because they have to that usr, bin, mnt, sys, etc, home, "root", etc... are like the directory listings when you double click on c:\. The concept of setting up "root" doesn't go down well for the home user.

It was meant to be non-savvy IT people.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 12th, 2006
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Objection to your post

You said: Linux does not use more ram than windows.....quite the opposite..I boot linux up and run it just fine on 4 meg ram.

My Response: So did Dos Shell, DOS, Windows 3.1 and Windows 95

You said: There is absolutely NO WAY that Linux uses more memory than XP, you're doing something wrong.

My Response: So, running KDE3.3, Gnome 2.6, Firefox, Music playing in the background and Apache running in the background is doing something wrong???

You said: I run Photoshop 7 just fine on my Linux box, along with most of the Adobe suite...

My Response: Not on 4MB of RAM you don't.

You said: use Crossover.

My Response: Why would you use Crossover? You are just bringing the bugs from Windows into Linux. Besides - the software is still not made for Linux.

You said: Windows has terrible ease-of-use... all the /root /var /usr is a furphy, it's like explaining registry hives to your Granny, it's just never going to happen. Windows is much more complicated than Linux.

My Response: Not at all. When CD's are designed with Autorun, a home user puts their CD in, click Set Up or Install or Run, and it works. Also, I would tell my granny that C:\My Documents is where your documents are stored. I wouldn't try explaining that your documents are stored in /home/usr/documents/

You said: Linux is more secure because it's built that way. Even if Windows had 1% of the market it will always be less secure than Linux because it's just not BUILT RIGHT.

My Response: If linux was more dominant, you would have hackers and virus writers exploiting Linux - Not Windows. Not only that, but we would be giving Windows a helping hand because they are the poor guy's who need support.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 12th, 2006
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Here we go again....

"Well, I have tested a variety of Linux distributions on many different combinations, and my test results show that Linux is much slower than windows, and it needs more RAM to function. Why do you think on a small amount of RAM that they have huge Swap drives? You must be running some custom version of Linux that has nothing more than just the Shell system to run on just 4MB of RAM."

And I have tested every version of Windows ever released and they are all much, much slower than the equivalent age Linux distro. Why else would they need to use up so much RAM to even boot and have such huge swap files? My 64meg Apache servers runs a lovely 64 meg swap partition just fine while any XP desktop you care to mention always swallows hundreds of megs of space.
"OpenOffice.org on Windows XP boots in 4 seconds. On the same machine under Mandrake, Fedora Core, SuSE, Ubuntu etc... it's about 20-40 seconds."
Funny, it boots on Suse in about 8 seconds, it takes over 30 seconds on my XP box.
"I never said that Windows was built right, or that Windows had better security than Linux, but Linux would be just as vulnerable as Windows if Linux was the dominant system! Hackers, Virus Writers etc would find a way to break your system just as they do with Windows."
How????... I have never EVER even HEARD of ANYONE EVER having their Linux/MACOSX/BSD etc system compromised by just looking at an email or visiting a website, yet this happens MILLIONS of times each day with Windows machines. Unix has been around for 30 years....the hackers should have been all over it by now, if it was possible.
Face it, Windows is just Swiss cheese and trivial to exploit, *nix is not. Linux is more secure because it's built better from the ground up, it's just that simple.

BillBill January 15th, 2006
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And again.

Your points in order.
DOS, WINDOWS 3.1 are not 32 bit operating systems, Win95 will not function in 4 meg of ram. *bzzzzzt*, try again.

KDE3.3, Gnome 2.6, Firefox, Music will NOT take up anywhere as much ram as XP with SQlSERVER running, 3 instances of VMWare ruiing Win2003Server and Oracle, Media player and PowerDVD running plus CuBAse and Doom3 (getting the picture yet?) Don't strawman the argument by adding on all the applications and fancy effects to the equation.
Why use crossover?, why not?..why do you use any myriad of third party tools? It works, its good.
To install Openoffice on Linux you stick the CD and and click run, to install Enemy Territory you atick the CD in and click run, to Install Doom3 you stick the CD in and click run, to install .....etc etc...getting the picture yet? And you didn't understand the path to the Windows my documents, what is easier /home/user/My Documents or C:/Documents and Settings/user/My Documents???Apart from the fact the Windows one is longer and harder to find they are both on the bloody desktop anyway.
Linux is inherently more secure than Windows, in fact pretty much anything is more secure than Windows. The idea that other platforms aren't as attacked due to less market share is garbage. Apache + Linuxhas far more market share than IIS + Windows yet less exploits. There are efefctively NO in-the-wild viruses for Linux yet Windows has TENS OF THOUSANDS. No-one even MAKES anti-virus for linux (apart to scan files that go to Windows machines via Linux email servers/SAMBA servers etc just to protect WINDOWS boxes down the line).
Windows is Swiss cheese...don't bother looking for those people who got their *nix boxes infected by merely previewing an email or looking at a web site, you just won't find them. Ask around though, EVERYONE who uses Windows falls victim eventually, EVERYONE, no exceptions.

Mr BlackMr Black January 15th, 2006
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4megs of RAM!?

My wrist watch needs more than 4 megs of RAM to keep time :P

anonanon January 17th, 2006
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who cares about RAM!

Sometimes, we get too caught up in a millisecond increase in performance when developing software applications. And the same goes for RAM usage. Practically every computer has 256 or 512 MB RAM now (new ones anyway), if not more! So, why discuss if something can run on 4MB of RAM or not. I am never going to use a computer with 4MB of RAM and nor are most home users so no point in discussing this :).
Though, I don't know about 4MB but I used to run windows 95 on 8MB of RAM when I bought my first computer.

Anshuman SinghAnshuman Singh January 17th, 2006
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Linux never hacked?

just one of many supporting documents: http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/0,2000061733,39116229,00.htm

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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Windows 95 will run on 4MB of RAM

I have Windows 95a running on 4MB of RAM.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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Windows 95 Specifications on the Microsoft Website...

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=138349

This states the following:

Personal computer with a 386DX or higher processor (486 recommended)
• 4 megabytes (MB) of memory (8 MB recommended)
• Typical hard disk space required to upgrade to Windows 95: 35-40 MB The actual requirement varies depending on the features you choose to install.
• Typical hard disk space required to install Windows 95 on a clean system: 50-55 MB The actual requirement varies depending on the features you choose to install.
• One 3.5-inch high-density floppy disk drive
• VGA or higher resolution (256-color SVGA recommended)

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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That is totally not the point.

YOu mean you've painfully coaxed it into giving you a desktop after 45 minutes of disk thrashing.

You cannot do anything meaningful.
You machine is effectively non-functional.

Make it boot with 512k of RAM then, or boot it off a floppy ... go on, dare you.

Mr blackMr black January 23rd, 2006
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Mate, you're shooting yourself in the foot there..

even the comments to that story you posted the link too support the anti-MS stand.
Poor methodology...
http://www.zdnet.com.au/forums/0,39029293,39116229-20103257o,00.htm

Didn't you even read what you linked too ??? This guys says it well..

Some old, same old, nothing to see here...you're like those Creationist guys who stubbornly refuse to accept what's happening all around them and what they can see with their own eyes and have to resort to spin, lies , deciept and deception to bolster their weak positions. I just did my own study* and found that my 100 linux servers were a gazillion billion times more insecure than my powered-down Windows 2k3 machine with no ram or cpu in it (it does have the OEM sticker on the side of the case though) !! Can MS pay me a heap of money for that one too ????





*Disclaimer:Study does not take into consideration hardware or software factors.

pengypengy January 23rd, 2006
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512k of RAM

I have to agree that Windows 95 won't load on 512k of RAM, but then again, there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM thus dismissing your earlier points about comparing the equivalent Linux/Windows. You are comparing Linux in the CLI form to Windows in the GUI form. You must remember that DOS can boot into 512k of RAM and be enough to run Dosshell.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 3rd, 2006
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No no no..

You can run a full GUI with 512k RAM, look at the Commodore Amiga for example. Full pre-emptive multitasking in 512k.
Also, DOS is a pale, pathetic imitation of any of the decent *nix shells.
Windows technology is simplistic, bloated and primitive, it lacks any sophistication.
There is no dount we would be 10 years ahead of where we are now computing-wise if it wasn't for the Wintel duopoly.

WorkbenchWorkbench February 6th, 2006
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yes yes yes...

Actually you misquoted what I said... "there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM"

Windows 95 uses a really simplistic Point and Click system with a 2 button mouse, access to CD-ROM. I know that Commodore had some GUI program that looked like Mac OS 7 or something with an office package. But, why the discussion on RAM I would consider obselete? People are comparing the entire Windows OS to the Linux kernal. Yeah, the linux kernal kicks Window's **** but when it comes to speed with things like SuSE, Red Hat - the default installation of Windows will kick **** compared to the default installation of most linux distros...

On topic with Vista: With a Video card required, mega amounts of ram etc... I believe that Linux will be much quicker for a short time until a Linux distro made to compete with Vista is created.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 6th, 2006
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maybe maybe maybe......

Commodore has a full pre-emptive multitasking OS with a very nice GUI, full screen video playback at 25fps, stereo sound etc etc that ran in 512K RAM under a 7MhZ cpu and was available in 1985!

The Windows PC is so backwards it's not funny. Other platforms could do the same job with 1/10th the cpu and RAM that the PC could. Nowadays we just throw insane amounts of memory and cycles at the problem but just imagine if your current spec machine was 10 times more efficient using the same hardware!

That is the legacy of Wintel, 10 years of stagnation.

As to your second point, Vista is already dead in the water and it's not even released yet !

pengypengy February 8th, 2006
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Linux better than XP

Firstly, your comment that >NET isn't ported to Linux is wrong! It's called Mono & has been put together by Novell using SuSE. You should check your statements before you make them.

Secondly, you say that Linux is cheaper by about 300 or so bucks. The fact is that there are thousands of dollars worth of software that comes with every version of Linux. That encompasses graphic editing, office equivalents, server software that is set-up with simple checkbox clicking. BTW, on this subject Windows is a long way behind. It's harder to set-up server systems using Windows non-server versions than Linux basic system. Even the professional versions cannot compete with Linux on this one.

The main reason that Linux is safe from most virus, spyware etc propagators is not as you say because of the lack of following, rather the fact that Linux is based on UNIX which has been around for far more years than has Windows & most of the problems created by nasty software people have been eliminated by the actual structure of UNIX, not as an add-on as it is in Windows. UNIX for the non-UNIXer has a structure that is based upon networking & everything on the network is a file. Everything has a level of power & acces only within that level of power. Yes, it does have some flaws but most of thee were ironed out long ago. Linux security is embedded in the structure not added on as an afterthought.

Check this out if you have any doubts as to the information.

The only place that XP has it over Linux is market software choices specific to business software. This is changing because many companies are addressing the needs of Gov't requirements throughout Asia & Europe & so these software choices will soon be up to scratch.

Where will Windows in its various versions be left then???

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 10th, 2006
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What the?

You seem to be refering to linux as one operating system. As for .NET, it was ported to linux, and again - from experience still isn't 100%. Windows gives me (and thousands of other users I have helped over the years) the sense that the OS is somewhat more complete.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 13th, 2006
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More complete what?

How much of Linux have you tried?

Yes, there are problems with the various Linux versions but that problem is being attacked at this very time by a group working on all of the major versions of Linux other than Fedora. That's Fedora's problem & could ultimately be their undoing.

More complete in what way? Have you even looked at Linux to know what you are talking about? Perhaps you should take your head out of the sand & watch what is happening around the world.

SuSE has been given a security clearance making it a usable tool for the armed forces, equal perhaps to Windows, but the version of Windows I would bet has been battened down to the point where network traffic "ain't happ'nin".

Many overseas Gov'ts are looking carefully at using Linux, not only as the server but also as the desktop because:
1- It is so much cheaper
2- It is so much more secure
3- It doesn't belong to an American consortium (big point here bcoz the good, old US of A doesn't have such a great reputation anymore)
4- Paying huge chunks of money to a company for very little improvement, namely MS

Apart from the variances & of course hardware driver problems which are slow forthcoming & installation of a hardware driver is not as simple as it is in Windows, there's not a lot in Windows that is better than Linux. Linux's desktop has been heaps better than MS's for years, even before the millenium.

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 15th, 2006
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Complete

Ok, first of all, I am an advocate for linux, and I have used many distributions over the years. They all have in their own ways give me (and countless others) the opinion that they are incomplete.

SuSE is by far the most complete one that I have used (since Novell's aquisition and Version 9), but alot of programs that are bundled with most linux distributions are Beta's, older software, incomplete GUI's etc...

I admit that Linux has come a long way, and I would like to see it take over Microsoft, but it won't happen until people can look at the operating system and feel confident enough in using it.

Fonts and compatibility issues are generally the most incompatible layer. Before you start saying you can use "CrossOver" office, Wine, install TTF fonts etc... that's all well and good, but then you really are only installing Windows ontop of linux.

Here is one question for you to think about. If linux has been so good over the years, and is so much better than Windows - then why the hell do you use Windows?

The biggest reason I don't switch 100% is because of compatibility issues between programs, and the reason alot of home users don't switch is because they can no longer just walk into a computer store, purchase a CD, pop it in a computer and expect it to work. Until that happens, then Linux is always going to have the sense of incompleteness amongst people.

I respect your opinion, but no need to have a 'knowitall' attitude. My point referred to general users - not people who live and breathe linux.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 16th, 2006
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More complete what?

How much of Linux have you tried?

Yes, there are problems with the various Linux versions but that problem is being attacked at this very time by a group working on all of the major versions of Linux other than Fedora. That's Fedora's problem & could ultimately be their undoing.

More complete in what way? Have you even looked at Linux to know what you are talking about? Perhaps you should take your head out of the sand & watch what is happening around the world.

SuSE has been given a security clearance making it a usable tool for the armed forces, equal perhaps to Windows, but the version of Windows I would bet has been battened down to the point where network traffic "ain't happ'nin".

Many overseas Gov'ts are looking carefully at using Linux, not only as the server but also as the desktop because:
1- It is so much cheaper
2- It is so much more secure
3- It doesn't belong to an American consortium (big point here bcoz the good, old US of A doesn't have such a great reputation anymore)
4- Paying huge chunks of money to a company for very little improvement, namely MS

Apart from the variances & of course hardware driver problems which are slow forthcoming & installation of a hardware driver is not as simple as it is in Windows, there's not a lot in Windows that is better than Linux. Linux's desktop has been heaps better than MS's for years, even before the millenium.

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 15th, 2006
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Complete

Ok, first of all, I am an advocate for linux, and I have used many distributions over the years. They all have in their own ways give me (and countless others) the opinion that they are incomplete.

SuSE is by far the most complete one that I have used (since Novell's aquisition and Version 9), but alot of programs that are bundled with most linux distributions are Beta's, older software, incomplete GUI's etc...

I admit that Linux has come a long way, and I would like to see it take over Microsoft, but it won't happen until people can look at the operating system and feel confident enough in using it.

Fonts and compatibility issues are generally the most incompatible layer. Before you start saying you can use "CrossOver" office, Wine, install TTF fonts etc... that's all well and good, but then you really are only installing Windows ontop of linux.

Here is one question for you to think about. If linux has been so good over the years, and is so much better than Windows - then why the hell do you use Windows?

The biggest reason I don't switch 100% is because of compatibility issues between programs, and the reason alot of home users don't switch is because they can no longer just walk into a computer store, purchase a CD, pop it in a computer and expect it to work. Until that happens, then Linux is always going to have the sense of incompleteness amongst people.

I respect your opinion, but no need to have a 'knowitall' attitude. My point referred to general users - not people who live and breathe linux.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 16th, 2006
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More complete what?

How much of Linux have you tried?

Yes, there are problems with the various Linux versions but that problem is being attacked at this very time by a group working on all of the major versions of Linux other than Fedora. That's Fedora's problem & could ultimately be their undoing.

More complete in what way? Have you even looked at Linux to know what you are talking about? Perhaps you should take your head out of the sand & watch what is happening around the world.

SuSE has been given a security clearance making it a usable tool for the armed forces, equal perhaps to Windows, but the version of Windows I would bet has been battened down to the point where network traffic "ain't happ'nin".

Many overseas Gov'ts are looking carefully at using Linux, not only as the server but also as the desktop because:
1- It is so much cheaper
2- It is so much more secure
3- It doesn't belong to an American consortium (big point here bcoz the good, old US of A doesn't have such a great reputation anymore)
4- Paying huge chunks of money to a company for very little improvement, namely MS

Apart from the variances & of course hardware driver problems which are slow forthcoming & installation of a hardware driver is not as simple as it is in Windows, there's not a lot in Windows that is better than Linux. Linux's desktop has been heaps better than MS's for years, even before the millenium.

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 15th, 2006
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More complete what?

How much of Linux have you tried?

Yes, there are problems with the various Linux versions but that problem is being attacked at this very time by a group working on all of the major versions of Linux other than Fedora. That's Fedora's problem & could ultimately be their undoing.

More complete in what way? Have you even looked at Linux to know what you are talking about? Perhaps you should take your head out of the sand & watch what is happening around the world.

SuSE has been given a security clearance making it a usable tool for the armed forces, equal perhaps to Windows, but the version of Windows I would bet has been battened down to the point where network traffic "ain't happ'nin".

Many overseas Gov'ts are looking carefully at using Linux, not only as the server but also as the desktop because:
1- It is so much cheaper
2- It is so much more secure
3- It doesn't belong to an American consortium (big point here bcoz the good, old US of A doesn't have such a great reputation anymore)
4- Paying huge chunks of money to a company for very little improvement, namely MS

Apart from the variances & of course hardware driver problems which are slow forthcoming & installation of a hardware driver is not as simple as it is in Windows, there's not a lot in Windows that is better than Linux. Linux's desktop has been heaps better than MS's for years, even before the millenium.

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 15th, 2006
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Complete

Ok, first of all, I am an advocate for linux, and I have used many distributions over the years. They all have in their own ways give me (and countless others) the opinion that they are incomplete.

SuSE is by far the most complete one that I have used (since Novell's aquisition and Version 9), but alot of programs that are bundled with most linux distributions are Beta's, older software, incomplete GUI's etc...

I admit that Linux has come a long way, and I would like to see it take over Microsoft, but it won't happen until people can look at the operating system and feel confident enough in using it.

Fonts and compatibility issues are generally the most incompatible layer. Before you start saying you can use "CrossOver" office, Wine, install TTF fonts etc... that's all well and good, but then you really are only installing Windows ontop of linux.

Here is one question for you to think about. If linux has been so good over the years, and is so much better than Windows - then why the hell do you use Windows?

The biggest reason I don't switch 100% is because of compatibility issues between programs, and the reason alot of home users don't switch is because they can no longer just walk into a computer store, purchase a CD, pop it in a computer and expect it to work. Until that happens, then Linux is always going to have the sense of incompleteness amongst people.

I respect your opinion, but no need to have a 'knowitall' attitude. My point referred to general users - not people who live and breathe linux.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 16th, 2006
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What the?

You seem to be refering to linux as one operating system. As for .NET, it was ported to linux, and again - from experience still isn't 100%. Windows gives me (and thousands of other users I have helped over the years) the sense that the OS is somewhat more complete.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 13th, 2006
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More complete what?

How much of Linux have you tried?

Yes, there are problems with the various Linux versions but that problem is being attacked at this very time by a group working on all of the major versions of Linux other than Fedora. That's Fedora's problem & could ultimately be their undoing.

More complete in what way? Have you even looked at Linux to know what you are talking about? Perhaps you should take your head out of the sand & watch what is happening around the world.

SuSE has been given a security clearance making it a usable tool for the armed forces, equal perhaps to Windows, but the version of Windows I would bet has been battened down to the point where network traffic "ain't happ'nin".

Many overseas Gov'ts are looking carefully at using Linux, not only as the server but also as the desktop because:
1- It is so much cheaper
2- It is so much more secure
3- It doesn't belong to an American consortium (big point here bcoz the good, old US of A doesn't have such a great reputation anymore)
4- Paying huge chunks of money to a company for very little improvement, namely MS

Apart from the variances & of course hardware driver problems which are slow forthcoming & installation of a hardware driver is not as simple as it is in Windows, there's not a lot in Windows that is better than Linux. Linux's desktop has been heaps better than MS's for years, even before the millenium.

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 15th, 2006
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More complete what?

How much of Linux have you tried?

Yes, there are problems with the various Linux versions but that problem is being attacked at this very time by a group working on all of the major versions of Linux other than Fedora. That's Fedora's problem & could ultimately be their undoing.

More complete in what way? Have you even looked at Linux to know what you are talking about? Perhaps you should take your head out of the sand & watch what is happening around the world.

SuSE has been given a security clearance making it a usable tool for the armed forces, equal perhaps to Windows, but the version of Windows I would bet has been battened down to the point where network traffic "ain't happ'nin".

Many overseas Gov'ts are looking carefully at using Linux, not only as the server but also as the desktop because:
1- It is so much cheaper
2- It is so much more secure
3- It doesn't belong to an American consortium (big point here bcoz the good, old US of A doesn't have such a great reputation anymore)
4- Paying huge chunks of money to a company for very little improvement, namely MS

Apart from the variances & of course hardware driver problems which are slow forthcoming & installation of a hardware driver is not as simple as it is in Windows, there's not a lot in Windows that is better than Linux. Linux's desktop has been heaps better than MS's for years, even before the millenium.

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 15th, 2006
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Complete

Ok, first of all, I am an advocate for linux, and I have used many distributions over the years. They all have in their own ways give me (and countless others) the opinion that they are incomplete.

SuSE is by far the most complete one that I have used (since Novell's aquisition and Version 9), but alot of programs that are bundled with most linux distributions are Beta's, older software, incomplete GUI's etc...

I admit that Linux has come a long way, and I would like to see it take over Microsoft, but it won't happen until people can look at the operating system and feel confident enough in using it.

Fonts and compatibility issues are generally the most incompatible layer. Before you start saying you can use "CrossOver" office, Wine, install TTF fonts etc... that's all well and good, but then you really are only installing Windows ontop of linux.

Here is one question for you to think about. If linux has been so good over the years, and is so much better than Windows - then why the hell do you use Windows?

The biggest reason I don't switch 100% is because of compatibility issues between programs, and the reason alot of home users don't switch is because they can no longer just walk into a computer store, purchase a CD, pop it in a computer and expect it to work. Until that happens, then Linux is always going to have the sense of incompleteness amongst people.

I respect your opinion, but no need to have a 'knowitall' attitude. My point referred to general users - not people who live and breathe linux.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 16th, 2006
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Launch

But the Launch of Windows XP's Beta version was much earlier

Orb!terOrb!ter January 11th, 2006
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RE: Linux running on 4MB of RAM?

Well, I have tested a variety of Linux distributions on many different combinations, and my test results show that Linux is much slower than windows, and it needs more RAM to function. Why do you think on a small amount of RAM that they have huge Swap drives? You must be running some custom version of Linux that has nothing more than just the Shell system to run on just 4MB of RAM.

OpenOffice.org on Windows XP boots in 4 seconds. On the same machine under Mandrake, Fedora Core, SuSE, Ubuntu etc... it's about 20-40 seconds.

I never said that Windows was built right, or that Windows had better security than Linux, but Linux would be just as vulnerable as Windows if Linux was the dominant system! Hackers, Virus Writers etc would find a way to break your system just as they do with Windows.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 12th, 2006
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Error in my post

Hi all,

In my above post I said:

For ease of use, Windows wins hands down. Try explaining to people who use IT because they have to that usr, bin, mnt, sys, etc, home, "root", etc... are like the directory listings when you double click on c:\. The concept of setting up "root" doesn't go down well for the home user.

It was meant to be non-savvy IT people.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 12th, 2006
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Objection to your post

You said: Linux does not use more ram than windows.....quite the opposite..I boot linux up and run it just fine on 4 meg ram.

My Response: So did Dos Shell, DOS, Windows 3.1 and Windows 95

You said: There is absolutely NO WAY that Linux uses more memory than XP, you're doing something wrong.

My Response: So, running KDE3.3, Gnome 2.6, Firefox, Music playing in the background and Apache running in the background is doing something wrong???

You said: I run Photoshop 7 just fine on my Linux box, along with most of the Adobe suite...

My Response: Not on 4MB of RAM you don't.

You said: use Crossover.

My Response: Why would you use Crossover? You are just bringing the bugs from Windows into Linux. Besides - the software is still not made for Linux.

You said: Windows has terrible ease-of-use... all the /root /var /usr is a furphy, it's like explaining registry hives to your Granny, it's just never going to happen. Windows is much more complicated than Linux.

My Response: Not at all. When CD's are designed with Autorun, a home user puts their CD in, click Set Up or Install or Run, and it works. Also, I would tell my granny that C:\My Documents is where your documents are stored. I wouldn't try explaining that your documents are stored in /home/usr/documents/

You said: Linux is more secure because it's built that way. Even if Windows had 1% of the market it will always be less secure than Linux because it's just not BUILT RIGHT.

My Response: If linux was more dominant, you would have hackers and virus writers exploiting Linux - Not Windows. Not only that, but we would be giving Windows a helping hand because they are the poor guy's who need support.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 12th, 2006
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Proven reliable technology?

Oh come on. We all know about Windows "proven, reliable technology" every time we saw a BSoD, every time we read a story about a new virus, a new trojan, every time we paid hundreds of dollars for a new OS and then hundreds more for new programs that regularly crashed.

Have a look at 3.1, 95, 98, ME and to some extent NT. Where is this "proven" let alone "reliable" technology? They were dogs! Hourly BSoDs, a need to re-install every few months because of OS corruption. I've never had so much as one crash in Linux; not one, never ever. Now that is proven, reliable technology.

I use XP and Office because I "have to", not because I want to and this is the case for many people.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you're being a bit of a Peter Pan; you know, the little boy who lived in Fantasy Land.

ptorningptorning January 19th, 2006
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Linux never hacked?

just one of many supporting documents: http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/0,2000061733,39116229,00.htm

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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Windows 95 will run on 4MB of RAM

I have Windows 95a running on 4MB of RAM.

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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Windows 95 Specifications on the Microsoft Website...

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=138349

This states the following:

Personal computer with a 386DX or higher processor (486 recommended)
• 4 megabytes (MB) of memory (8 MB recommended)
• Typical hard disk space required to upgrade to Windows 95: 35-40 MB The actual requirement varies depending on the features you choose to install.
• Typical hard disk space required to install Windows 95 on a clean system: 50-55 MB The actual requirement varies depending on the features you choose to install.
• One 3.5-inch high-density floppy disk drive
• VGA or higher resolution (256-color SVGA recommended)

Orb!terOrb!ter January 19th, 2006
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Your full of rubbish

"So stop with this rubbish about how linux and mac would suffer more if they were more popular, they suffer far, far less due to better design, better code and better code review, it's just that simple!"

Do you seriously think if the tables were turned (ie Linux had 90% of the market share with Windows at 10%) that Windows would still have 65,000 viruses? I don't think so! Linux would be more attacked because hackers can do more damage. Simple e-mail attachments wouldn't - but the amount of programs usually running in the background of 'general' installations is astonishing. What type of home user needs to run Apache from just a general install?

Orb!terOrb!ter January 28th, 2006
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I see English isn't your forte.

Yes, I do say exactly that.

Windows is swamped by viruses due to a poor security model.

Here's a hint...google for "dll injection" sometime...then engage your brain cell and have a think.

Windows is full of holes, it's a poor product, it's based on a bad security model and it's trivial to exploit.

It's just that simple.

As for your apache comment...don't install it then. Apache is a third party application anyway. Go on, drop IIS onto your machine as a default install then plug yourself onto the 'Net, see how long you last...I wouldn't give you 30 minutes.

pengypengy January 31st, 2006
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I know that...

I know that Windows has many viruses because of the way Windows was made to cater for the new user to computers. It has a native format so that a user can point and click to run a program. Linux is good - don't get me wrong... but viruses are made to destroy a large quantity of computers. If linux was in Large quantity, it would be attacked and brought to its knees. I am glad you don't use any Microsoft products at all.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 3rd, 2006
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I know that...

I know that Windows has many viruses because of the way Windows was made to cater for the new user to computers. It has a native format so that a user can point and click to run a program. Linux is good - don't get me wrong... but viruses are made to destroy a large quantity of computers. If linux was in Large quantity, it would be attacked and brought to its knees. I am glad you don't use any Microsoft products at all.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 3rd, 2006
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512k of RAM

I have to agree that Windows 95 won't load on 512k of RAM, but then again, there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM thus dismissing your earlier points about comparing the equivalent Linux/Windows. You are comparing Linux in the CLI form to Windows in the GUI form. You must remember that DOS can boot into 512k of RAM and be enough to run Dosshell.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 3rd, 2006
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I know that...

I know that Windows has many viruses because of the way Windows was made to cater for the new user to computers. It has a native format so that a user can point and click to run a program. Linux is good - don't get me wrong... but viruses are made to destroy a large quantity of computers. If linux was in Large quantity, it would be attacked and brought to its knees. I am glad you don't use any Microsoft products at all.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 3rd, 2006
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And PocketPC, Windows XP Embedded

Some phones use PocketPC.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 5th, 2006
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yes yes yes...

Actually you misquoted what I said... "there is no GUI like Windows 95 that will load on Linux on 512k of RAM"

Windows 95 uses a really simplistic Point and Click system with a 2 button mouse, access to CD-ROM. I know that Commodore had some GUI program that looked like Mac OS 7 or something with an office package. But, why the discussion on RAM I would consider obselete? People are comparing the entire Windows OS to the Linux kernal. Yeah, the linux kernal kicks Window's **** but when it comes to speed with things like SuSE, Red Hat - the default installation of Windows will kick **** compared to the default installation of most linux distros...

On topic with Vista: With a Video card required, mega amounts of ram etc... I believe that Linux will be much quicker for a short time until a Linux distro made to compete with Vista is created.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 6th, 2006
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Precisely!

"Nowadays the transition from say Windows XP SP2 to Linux distributions such as Ubuntu is not too difficult to make. You'd need to be a high-end gamer to be unable to make this switch. "

You hit the nail right on the head. If I wasn't a huge gamer, I would be switching everything over to Linux. However, Ubuntu is sort of a 'demo' version of Linux. It is certainly the bridging point (in my opinion) between Windows XP and Linux. I would like to see more game developers supporting development on linux before I made the full switch. I know cedega exists - but it's still not 100%.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 6th, 2006
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Not quite..

Exactly. However for a business or for study-only purposes Linux is a powerful alternative. Therefore most businesses and educational institutes should be able to make the move over to Linux and save a fortune.

Unfortunately native gaming isn't quite up to par on Linux. However with the recent news of VMWare becoming released for free I think that by creating a Windows installation using VMWare inside of a Linux distribution gaming should be possible. I'm not sure about the performance of a game running on a virtualised operating system environment but I'm assuming for now that performance is the same compared to a native operating system installation.

In the end we'll have to see how much fireworks are packed into Vista and whether or not we need it. Besides, its highly likely that most XPSP2-compatible applications won't be Vista-compatible. If thats the case then Linux with VMWare sounds like a good option for me.

Victory NapitupuluVictory Napitupulu February 6th, 2006
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Gaming in VMWare

Unfortunately VMWare doesn't work with 3D well. Cedega is the closest we have (apart from ID software, and the people behind Unreal).

Still agree that it could happen. But I would think alot of corporations won't actually bother with the upgrade at all. Windows XP and Office 2003 seem to be functioning rather fine in many organisations. There isn't really a need to switch (apart from obvious security concerns which keep the System Administrators with a high paid job ;))

Orb!terOrb!ter February 7th, 2006
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Virtualisation!

Virtualisation as a gamer I'm pretty sure, would slow the speed of the game to a major degree. I think most gamers would find it unbearable.

Basically, virtualisation adds another layer between the hardware & the interrupts & this extra layer is a layer within another operating system. Without a huge hardware speed update I reckon the drop in speed is going to be unviable for gamers.

BTW, I am not a gamer myself & I prefer Linux to Microsux.

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 15th, 2006
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Gaming in VMWare

Unfortunately VMWare doesn't work with 3D well. Cedega is the closest we have (apart from ID software, and the people behind Unreal).

Still agree that it could happen. But I would think alot of corporations won't actually bother with the upgrade at all. Windows XP and Office 2003 seem to be functioning rather fine in many organisations. There isn't really a need to switch (apart from obvious security concerns which keep the System Administrators with a high paid job ;))

Orb!terOrb!ter February 7th, 2006
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Virtualisation!

Virtualisation as a gamer I'm pretty sure, would slow the speed of the game to a major degree. I think most gamers would find it unbearable.

Basically, virtualisation adds another layer between the hardware & the interrupts & this extra layer is a layer within another operating system. Without a huge hardware speed update I reckon the drop in speed is going to be unviable for gamers.

BTW, I am not a gamer myself & I prefer Linux to Microsux.

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 15th, 2006
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Gaming in VMWare

Unfortunately VMWare doesn't work with 3D well. Cedega is the closest we have (apart from ID software, and the people behind Unreal).

Still agree that it could happen. But I would think alot of corporations won't actually bother with the upgrade at all. Windows XP and Office 2003 seem to be functioning rather fine in many organisations. There isn't really a need to switch (apart from obvious security concerns which keep the System Administrators with a high paid job ;))

Orb!terOrb!ter February 7th, 2006
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What the?

You seem to be refering to linux as one operating system. As for .NET, it was ported to linux, and again - from experience still isn't 100%. Windows gives me (and thousands of other users I have helped over the years) the sense that the OS is somewhat more complete.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 13th, 2006
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Yes.

Windows has an adequate service for providing details of what hardware is. Most manufacturers also include a Driver CD. As the Windows OS is only one CD, and an entire OS update isn't released every 6 months, you are going to have to expect some major updates. Maybe you should stick to Linux and never use Windows again if you struggle to use to OS.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 13th, 2006
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So what was your point?

Did you actually have something to say or did you respond because you have a small peeniss?

Was the problem my articulation? Was it that you actually didn't understand what was written? Perhaps you might need your Mum to decrypt the message for you. That way at least your comments may eventually mean something.

Oh & BTW, your Anony-mouse respondant name shows another problem with your communication skills. Cowardice!

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 15th, 2006
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Just reread

Sorry, I just reread it. I misread it thinking that you were stating that Linux had a better hardware system than Windows. My Mistake.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 16th, 2006
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Apology

I also apologise for my rudeness! I must admit I didn't really understand what your point was. Thank you for being honest & I again apologise. Sometimes I can get just a little tense.

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 24th, 2006
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Apology

I also apologise for my rudeness! I must admit I didn't really understand what your point was. Thank you for being honest & I again apologise. Sometimes I can get just a little tense.

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 24th, 2006
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Just reread

Sorry, I just reread it. I misread it thinking that you were stating that Linux had a better hardware system than Windows. My Mistake.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 16th, 2006
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Apology

I also apologise for my rudeness! I must admit I didn't really understand what your point was. Thank you for being honest & I again apologise. Sometimes I can get just a little tense.

Rex Alfie LeeRex Alfie Lee February 24th, 2006
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Just reread

Sorry, I just reread it. I misread it thinking that you were stating that Linux had a better hardware system than Windows. My Mistake.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 16th, 2006
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Complete

Ok, first of all, I am an advocate for linux, and I have used many distributions over the years. They all have in their own ways give me (and countless others) the opinion that they are incomplete.

SuSE is by far the most complete one that I have used (since Novell's aquisition and Version 9), but alot of programs that are bundled with most linux distributions are Beta's, older software, incomplete GUI's etc...

I admit that Linux has come a long way, and I would like to see it take over Microsoft, but it won't happen until people can look at the operating system and feel confident enough in using it.

Fonts and compatibility issues are generally the most incompatible layer. Before you start saying you can use "CrossOver" office, Wine, install TTF fonts etc... that's all well and good, but then you really are only installing Windows ontop of linux.

Here is one question for you to think about. If linux has been so good over the years, and is so much better than Windows - then why the hell do you use Windows?

The biggest reason I don't switch 100% is because of compatibility issues between programs, and the reason alot of home users don't switch is because they can no longer just walk into a computer store, purchase a CD, pop it in a computer and expect it to work. Until that happens, then Linux is always going to have the sense of incompleteness amongst people.

I respect your opinion, but no need to have a 'knowitall' attitude. My point referred to general users - not people who live and breathe linux.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 16th, 2006
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Fedora kudzu does this job well

I think kudzu does this job relatively well. One thing I want to see is that loading the manufacturer binary driver at instllation time. I once did it on XP installation when SATA first appeared on the motherboard. I think press F6 and load the binary driver.

I have read in a forum that FreeBSD can do that.

zwassdtzwassdt February 16th, 2006
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Exactly what everyone else is waiting for

As soon as software is made for linux (ie Adobe, Macromedia etc...) and not just emulation layers (ie Crossover, Wine, Cedega etc...) - I think most people will switch.

Orb!terOrb!ter February 26th, 2006
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